+1

It reminded me of that swift hand gesture McCain made when the crowd started booing Obama’s name during his concession speech. Its getting harder and harder for the leaders of both of these Big Business parties to tolerate the people they have to pander to every 4 years in order to stay in power.

Throughout the postwar era, American politicians have been tasked by Wall Street and Big Business with maintaining political stability in this country because that’s whats good for business. Now that American Capitalism stands on the precipice, that’s becoming harder and harder to do. We accuse politicians of being radical not because they are, but because WE are. Americans believe in decisive action and we feel like with the economy on the verge of collapse, decisive action is necessary.

I’m sure you might think I sound conspiratorial, but if by conspiratorial you mean blatantly obvious, you’d be right

Some of the comments here are simply not worth the merit of a response. The political name calling is something that you can do in your own time at a place that will stoke that insecure ego. If you really believe that politicians are going to solve the problems in the American economy, then I’ve got some wonderful farmland in Zimbabwe that I would love to sell you.

As it pertains to Chapter 11, I don’t believe it will happen. I’ve said repeatedly that Congress will provide a financial loan to GM and Ford so that they can get their ship in order. The real questions for me at least are…

1) Will they get rid of upper management and the BOD?

I believe Ford’s leaders are doing a pretty good job, for the most part. GM’s brass is obviously tarnished beyond belief. They need to go. Congress is more than likely clueless and chances are the hired lobbyists will keep them that way.

2) Will they enact new laws and regulations that can make this the equivalent of a Chapter 11?

The restructuring of the operations are in dire need at this point. But a C11 filing would eliminate these manufacturers from the radars of a lot of potential buyers. If there is one positive that can come of this, it would be the ability to perform the activities of a chapter 11 without the declaration of one. I do see some progress made here.

3) Will the UAW be allowed to keep pension and medical benefits at anywhere near current levels?

I believe there would be massive anger over allowing the pensioners to receive benefits that are in essence paid by the taxpayer. But then again maybe the ivory castles of DC and the media machine will obscure the economics involved… a la Iraq and the current fiscal crisis. Our citizens often forgo the math in order to opt for a near term ‘feel good’ agreement.

In either case, it would be helpful if GM and Ford could get wages and benefits down to the transplant levels. I’m not holding my breath on that one.

4) Will the Detroit manufacturers be allowed to enact measures that reduce the dealer network, divisions, and overall fiefdom mentality of their enterprises?

GM in particular will need to be able to tear down and build up their operations at the same time. At least half their car divisions no longer serve a useful purpose in the marketplace. This also goes for a lot of their internal operations as well. Ford needs to rid itself of Lincoln, Mercury and Volvo. The later now has sales that are about as strong as Suzuki with twice the number of models.

5) Will the Feds ever consider our trade policies given the horrendous record of some of our trading partners?

The South Korean government and their auto industry have enacted protectionist measures that would make Fidel Castro proud. Something should be done about it. But like virtually everything mentioned above, I doubt that would ever happen.

Conclusion: Chrysler will be sold piecemeal. I can see the minivan going to VW, trucks to Nissan, Jeep to Hyundai, cars to china (along with the dealer and distribution network), and Auburn hills to perhaps Nissan, VW or Mitsubishi.

GM would require a miracle at this point, or perhaps a break-up that would free the stronger portions from many of the current parasitic influences. Chevy and Cadillac are the only brands that have any substantial equity in the marketplace.

Ford obviously needs money, time, and that chick who used to sell Mercurys. Ford should simply be selling Fords. I really don’t see any of their other divisions making it.

Now, back to cars — another poster mentioned head gasket problems with GM Quad 4 engines. Those, too? What is it with Detroit and head gaskets? Seriously, why did certain engines (such as early Ford 3.8 V6’s) become notorious for head gasket failure? Isn’t head gasket technology pretty well known? Or does Detroit turn out blocks and heads with poorly milled surfaces? Or what? I’m really curious about this strange failing.

The only possible exception being sites such as http://forum.axishistory.com/

The initial poster, who started the contentious diatribe by reframing the well-known “They came for …” — has a point, though. Precisely because we didn’t see the danger of exporting jobs, and because this happened piecemeal, we didn’t see the full implications until it was too late.

But the internet is for huffing and puffing, not really for any sensible discussion. Look at the GMDW-series, check out the comments there, as RF points out the obvious, and people tell him what a loon he is …

At any rate – which of GM’s present models is it worth to keep alive, because it is better than the competition?

AND – is it true that the GM minus was corrected from 2.4 billion to 4.2 billion within eight hours of the first announcement?
Are they complete loons?

Just saying.

Umm, I would scratch Iceland off that list. The country is bankrupt, the Icelandic Krona has been devalued, the country has no foreign currency (outside of loans). 18% interest rates. There was a run on shops stocking vegetables, pasta and bread as all are imported. Exporters to Iceland no longer wish to send goods to people who pay in worthless paper. Only thing Iceland can export now is fish, aluminium, and Bjork.

The US car industry is headed for bankruptcy. Millions of workers are about to discover what it’s like to be frozen over like Iceland.

Think of how many independent mechanics put their kids through college just from blown headgaskets on Quad-4’s alone !.

I’m sorry for their jobs, too. My point being that we won’t really miss any of GM’s present lineup of cars if they were suddenly to disappear from the market tomorrow, they’re that badly manufactured, and are generations behind the leading models in each category.

C11 and a serious shake-up may change that, but we don’t know until about eight years down the road.

It’s certainly an interesting mess we have here. Realistically, it doesn’t matter what the government or GM does, nobody wants their cars and that is only going to get worse.

Sure, I want to protect jobs. But I also want to protect my tax money. So… screw it.

Bailout fatigue has to enter the picture sometime soon, whether or not the bailout is justified. (Warning, following is a political/personal statement): Maybe it’ll jump start people into realizing our current 10 trillion or so debt is nothing compared to the 50-70+ trillion in entitlement outlays coming in less than 2 decades. Democrat or Republican, whomever gets serious about this issue has a supporter in me. In the meantime, part of my 10-year-plan involves securing a second citizenship in a low-debt nation (which apparently is easier said than done unless you have $$$). Our nation has a fine history of mortgaging its future with little consequence, but it’s coming home to roost like a 10 ton heavy thing.

Nope their consumers made alternative arrangements.

Or maybe all over Republicans! It doesn’t matter, as I am forwarding the national discussion with asinine, blinders-on partisan sniping. Thank goodness there are so many car forums where we can talk about what a communist our new president is and what a nazi our outgoing president was.

Good work, everybody, keep the intelligent conversation going!

On another note, RF, can we have, like, a separate thread line so all the hardline republican and democrat dopes can sound off at each other without interrupting the car talk?

I made no mention of or comparison to Nazis or Hitler. I just paraphrased a famous quote from a religious leader about conflicts between selfish interests and the commonwealth.

Detroit’s demise is due to its poor products, service and management. Jackbooted thugs didn’t do it to them, they did it to themselves, and they have only themselves to blame.

So, the demise of the American shoe industry, apparel industry, consumer electronics industry, textile industry, machine tool industry, and other elements of the US manufacturing base was all due to poor products, service and management? Were all those industries run by knaves and staffed by thieves?

What is GM making that the world needs?”

Jobs for mechanics, service departments, and aftermarket replacement parts stores.

Do you think places like NAPA and Autozone could stay in business if everyone drove Toyotas and Hondas ?.

Think of how many independent mechanics put their kids through college just from blown headgaskets on Quad-4’s alone !.

“OTOH, I’m rather certain you aren’t concerned over the thuggish behavior of the Obama campaign and its supporters. It wasn’t Republican government officials who violated Joe The Plumber’s privacy by rummaging through his gov’t records.”

No, but it was McCain supporters who screamed, “Kill him!” and, “Traitor!” when Obama was mentioned at McCain rallies last month.

——
Well Trey, the people who do this sort of thing are no different than the folks at a ball game who yel “kill the ump”. You think they really mean it? And do they have the power to go thru with it if they did? I don’t condone it, but I don’t think of it as real threat. Even if it’s “just” a ball game. (I have been known to tell the ump or ref to get his vision checked though). And as has been stated the Secret Service has looked into this.

But – the folks that invaded Joe the Plumbers privacy were government and campaign officials. Think about that. Just like Chucky Schumer’s campaign got a hold of Michael Steeles credit report looking for dirt in the 2006 campaign. And may I add that Steele in an African American. And let’s not forget the Clinton whithouse “FBI Filegate”. I don’t about you but I see a pattern.

But at least Obama didn’t have someone shoot at his campaign bus:

http://obamawho.wordpress.com/2008/10/21/obama-supporters-engaging-in-violence-and-threats/

And of course the media was selectively at its finest in only reporting about threats to THE ONE.

http://michellemalkin.com/2008/10/15/the-rage-thats-not-on-your-front-page/

Then you really ought to know better than to violate Godwin’s Law in the fashion that you have. That’s particularly true given that General Motors and Ford both profited from their sales of equipment to the Nazis.

Detroit’s demise is due to its poor products, service and management. Jackbooted thugs didn’t do it to them, they did it to themselves, and they have only themselves to blame.

More lies from the Obaministry of Information. The Secret Service fully investigated the claims and could find nobody other than the one reporter who heard “kill him” (though others did hear someone say “tell ‘em”). The reporter could not give any identifying information about the supposed screamer.

The Secret Service has more credibility than just another in the tank for Obama reporter.

But pray tell, did you get so upset when novelists and scriptwriters fantasized about the assassination of GWB?

BTW, the last time I looked, it’s a right under the First Amendment to call anyone’s actions traitorous. If Obama doesn’t like getting called a traitor, he’s a lawyer and can sue if the remarks are truly libelous.

My, what a timely request. What’s up, isn’t it fun anymore? Or is the messiah beyond criticism? (I’m already aware he’s beyond satire, according to the professional comedians.)
I plan on giving zerobama the same respect people like you gave Bush when he was in office.

I see your point however left or right, you’re still left facing the State.

Bozoer

you can’t cite anybody in particular because everybodys communucations are sucked up and if you say well I haven’t done anything wrong, well how do you know? and money spent on weapons is a waste if they sit round for years doing nothing they are a waste and if they are fired same.

amd the missile defense system…where does one start.

TreyV :
November 7th, 2008 at 6:07 pm

No, but it was McCain supporters who screamed, “Kill him!” and, “Traitor!” when Obama was mentioned at McCain rallies last month.

If you get your information from DailyKos and the Huffington Post, you’d think so. Try a newspaper instead.

Oh, no, they just suspend habeas corpus and have you deported to a nation that hasn’t signed the Geneva Convention. It’s quicker, cheaper and easier to outsource, donchaknow?

Just ask Maher Arar.

In all seriousness, let’s try and drop the partisan sniping. It was tiring when it was left-wingers claiming Bush was going to refine people into biodiesel, it’s tiring now that we’ve got the descendent right ringing the bells of doom about how Obama’s going to replace the stars on the American flag with sickles.

And it detracts from the real problem: that we stand a good chance of seeing thousands of jobs vanish as the economy teeters on the brink.