He literally had to lower the quality of his goods because customers like to change their furniture before the old stuff would wear out, so most would go for the elcheapo Chinese made stuff over quality built furniture because it cost less.

When I was younger, I bought new cars because I didn’t know any better, and to be honest, the quality was not as good as they are today. The last two cars I have bought were used Grand Marquis – though from their resale value I must be one of the few doing so. When my wife and I get the baby, I’ll be looking for a used small minivan – a short wheelbase stripped Voyager would be perfect, especially since in their wisdom Chrysler no longer builds them new.

If I was buying a Honda or Toyota, I’d probably buy new – the used ones cost too much.

“Stuff made 50 yrs is way better than the pressed wood crap sold new now a days.”

Boy is that the truth. Then again a maple canopy bed is just as cheap as that proverbial old truck. If anyone brags to you about their ‘antique bed’ just point to the nearest manhole (or personhole if you’re in Berkeley) and say, “Yeah, they’re quite rare these days too aren’t they?”

Of course, it helps if you’re either outside or live in a rather damp and dark homestead.

1) Not everyone can be expert when it comes to cars. Unless we require every high school student to take 2 years of automotive ownership/financing/maintenance/repair classes. Yes, one can always learn more, but that’s true of every subject under the sun. There aren’t enough hours in a day/life to make people expert in everything they “need” to know.

2) We can’t all ‘beat the system’ by driving ‘78 Ford F150 pickup trucks. Part of what makes such old beaters frugal choices is the relative lack of demand. If 5 million people decided suddenly decided they would only buy old cars that can be fixed with simple hand tools, the prices of those cars would skyrocket and it would no longer be a money-saver.

Also, what happens to the economy when all those people give up on consumption?

I’m sure many of us (myself included) would like to see that happen. But we should be careful what we wish for. The day that occurs will be a major economic collapse.

I think that collapse is inevitable no matter what we do, but a large number of people drastically cutting back on their car-buying consumption could certainly catalyze it.

Apparently you don’t use your name as your eBay identification. How can we find what you’re selling?

But most cars go back to the bank.

These are all good points. Two fellows by the name of Tom & Ray Magliozzi lamented the fact that most ‘education’ is little more than pencil pushing. You can also make a VERY valid point that the American educational system usually encourages specialization of varying levels and dependency.

As far as maintaining cars, houses, and the proverbial checkbook are concerned, our current system is downright woeful. Then again, a lot of us believe that the cards of conspicuous consumption and planned obsolescence are dealt in spades when it comes to the ‘average’ American.

You do have choices. Educate yourself. Barter with others in the pursuit of knowledge. Open a book. Work with/for others who may benefit from your labor. Heck, you can even print step by step instructions on the internet for certain types of automotive and household repairs.

It’s obvious that the cards appear to be stacked against you. But that doesn’t mean you can’t play with a different deck.

One that sticks out was a younger couple with a newborn buying a used minivan (dodge caravan if I recall correctly) for full price of 13000 and financing it over 72 months. The salesman who had just entered auto sales quit b/c it bothered him so much.

I was trying to be a nice guy once and helping some poor shmoe by keeping the payments low as I could….he was upside down on some domestic junk and wanted a new xterra for xyz/month. He talked himself into the next model up b/c it has a better (brand name) stereo. 96 months financing at near 700/month (yes really)!

The last vehicle I sold was to the typical suburban couple, mid 50’s, kids gone…I’ve got the copy here: 672/month for 72 months.

As a sales rep you just have to learn to swallow hard and shake your head. It is afterall your paycheque from these sorts of things.

As a side note, 90% of the sales reps drove cars that would have been wholesaled out to the “dirt lots”, paid cash drove it for as long as it lasted and got another one. I’ve still got mine and it’s ticking along decently at 200,000km. Consider that when purcasing a new vehicle.

We’ve reengineered the country, over the last 50 years to an automobile-centric lifestyle and, in doing so, we’ve marginalized mass transit and many of those who use it. People get over their heads on a car because they really have no choice.

Try living without your car for a month. Or, look at your mileage over the last year and resolve to cut in in half this year or even just this month. Could you do it? Imagine you didn’t have the choice.

And car problems are, increasingly, intimidating to many people. Perhaps not so much to TTAC’s readers but what part of the general population has access to the tools, space and knowledge necessary to work on a ‘95 Taurus? The knowledge necessary to fix an altnerator? Starter? Transmission? Swap a motor if is throws a rod? Are these cars designed for self-maintenance? That was a big selling point for a certain niche of cars (the Maverick and a Dodge/Plymouth of a few decades ago) but what untrained person is going to open the hood of an Olds Ciera and find something he can fix? Or recognize what he’s looking at?

As car repairs become more expensive, more and more failures become the impetus for buying another car. In some cases, lack of cash for the repair pushes the buyer into a new car that they don’t necessarily want but at least comes with a warranty for a few years.

And this is also what makes cars with a reputation for reliability more and more valuable on the used market and hammers the value of cars with a reputation for problems.

I’m not saying that excessive consumerism isn’t a problem for some but it’s not the only reason that people get upside down on car loans.

“Those who won’t hear, must FEEL!!!”

And they will feel it in their wallets big time…

Taxman, you will not need to buy another car for at least the next 10 years. The powertrains on both those vehicles are virtually bulletproof.

CSJohnston, 2007 has already been the year of the repo. Real estate, automobiles, motorcycles, boats, trailers, RV’s…. a few years ago I worked a powersport sale that averaged 500 units every other month. Today they average 2300 units and have 13 sales a year. Yamaha, H-D, Honda, Arctic Cat, you can literally pick and choose the options that you want on these vehicles based on what’s there. Harley has more than doubled their repo vloume in the last 24 months, and it was already pretty dang high before that point.

. . . . . . . . . .

OK, here’s confession time. From August 2003 to August 2005 I was a vehicle remarketing rep for Capital One Auto Finance. My primary duty was to inspect, appraise and liquidate a little over 10,000 repos a year throughout the entire United States.

The auto finance industry is far more sophisticated than any of you would initially believe…. and very, VERY knowledge intensive. The more successful companies in this business make it a habit to buy and sell as much information about ‘you’ as possible and create models that not only evaluate your ‘risk’, but also what interest rate may be just enough to beckon you into the dark side.

Thousands of criterion are examined about a prospective loan candidate. The amount of time to give you a yes/no and a customized financial proposal is usually less than fifteen minutes, and in many models is less than one minute.

My work primarily dealt with the patient AFTER they had already died. I saw everything from Maseratis with bullet holes, to pimpmobiles with fake fur exteriors, to even a Mercedes once owned (but never paid) by Dominique Wilkins. I also literally saw over a thousand Kias and Neons in my travels. Unless the patient literally did die, the quality of the vehicles ran the gamut went from “OK” to “Oh my god. I’m going to label this vehicle as a biohazard!”

Well… I guess it’s time to sharpen that pencil and get to work. Give me a week and I’ll give you a helluva story.

Whoops.

She paid the interest up front. In almost all cases these deals are either a low interest loan OR a big rebate. GM’s 2003 program gave the option of a $3000 rebate or the 60/0% deal. Hardly free money.

Although I agree few people will do it, most people would be much better off not buying any car they can’t save up the cash for. Borrowing money to fund consumption is generally an unwise personal financial move. Cars are consumption.

1 trying to trade an Olds Aurora w/ $5000 negative equity onto a Mercury Mountaineer.

Another trying to trade out of an 08 Grand Marquis he just bought last month when he traded his used car of 10 months (he crashed that one with no insurance). He had $9000 negative equity with the crashed trade (we actually gave him money for his wreck), now he’s $14000 flipped in the Grand Marquis. I’m not a jerk, the Grand Marquis has $5500 rebates we used to almost pay off his wrecked trade, it was the only car that would work.

SherbornSean, you wrote “The reliability of modern cars poses a real issue for the Big 2.8.” Though today’s vehicles do hold up better, manufacturers maintain their revenue stream by making repairs phenomenally expensive. An electronic component that might cost a hundred bucks at Radio Shack can run a grand at a car dealership. Ford charges $2,500 for a rebuilt automatic transmission; I bet it cost the company no more than $500 for a new one installed on the assembly line.

My ex was one of those lucky few with a pulse to receive a 60 month 0% loan from GM. Then she decided that she wanted to make extra payments. WHY?! You’ve got an interest free loan, and if you can afford to make extra payments, you can bank that cash and earn interest on it yourself. Also, you’ll have a mini nest egg for a rainy auto day. Even if you’ve paid ahead, the Man still expects a check from you EVERY month–no exceptions. If you’ve put all your spare cash toward paying it off early, what do you do when the tranny goes out and you’re out of warranty?

If you can afford to pay cash for a $20K car and take a 0% interest loan instead, you can make a couple thousand dollars in a high-yield savings account (or CD if you break it up so you can have some of it liquid for making payments).

I bought my car at 1.9%. I would love to have paid it off early because of the constant nagging feeling of debt (that most americans seem immune to), but by being patient and banking the extra money, i earned more than enough interest to offset the loan interest, AND i got to keep some cash on hand for my $700 timing belt maintenance.

That was when my wife and I married, and we paid off the balance of the loan on her 2000 Toyota Corolla, which she still drives with 114,000 miles.

In 2005 I paid cash for a 3 year old Mercury Grand Marquis LSE – it now has 77,000 miles and runs perfectly.

I figure we are out of the market for another 3 years, and will pay cash at that point again. Buy only what you can afford, and let the suckers suffer through the sleepless nights.

Only an extremely small minority of people will pay cash and do their own maintenance. More realistic advice is to buy 3-5 year old cars with a good model history. Even if you want to change vehicles every few years, you can save buckets…