There’s that too. There is a continuum of rational to irrational buyer behaviors and antipathy is among them.

If anything, it’s highly irrational to do business with someone with a poor track record. If you are presented with an abundance of negative information yet refuse to act on it, it’s clear who is the gullible sucker in that scenario.

There’s more to living well than indefinitely punishing those who failed to deliver value in the past. Changed processes, practices and efforts that deliver real improvements, combined with consideration of the larger context of social factors that benefit you, can be ample reason to put aside an old grudge. “Rational,” in locally and temporally restricted terms, is often not the same as wise or smart.

Phil

It’s perfectly rational to avoid doing business with someone who has screwed you or someone whom you know.

If anything, it’s highly irrational to do business with someone with a poor track record. If you are presented with an abundance of negative information yet refuse to act on it, it’s clear who is the gullible sucker in that scenario.

A lot of those people who bought a US made car in good faith to support the “home team”, only to be told by a smirking service manager that “we can’t find that problem” or that this or that major catastrophe would not be covered under warranty, are now indulging in a little bit of schadenfruede as they watch Detroit wither on the vine, and are saying to themselves “Serve’s ‘em right!”

It may not be rational, but it’s quite understandable.

The same is true of the Corvette. Yet there were years when folks wouldn’t buy a Japanese or German car because they were afraid of what the neighbors would think. I’m not sure we can change that behavior. I will say that a friend is looking at a new mid-sized car and I encouraged him to shop both the Fusion and Malibu after your arguments soaked in. He’s not an enthusiast, but wants a solid car; he did ask if I thought he could realize the reliability of a Japanese car and I explained that with the exception of a few turkeys, the differences weren’t any longer significant from an individual’s point of view. The statisticians may continue to bicker…

Nonetheless, I’m not sure I would have highly recommended he look at the GM and Ford offerings without your persistent arguments. As they say in Oz, goodonyamate!

Generally I think what you say is true, but in spite of the fact that Chevy sells more Corvettes in California than in any other state, there is a portion of the market here that won’t forgive its GM origins, or they’re married to someone who won’t.

And would a true Corvette owner really care what a bunch of import car snobs think anyway?

No, they wouldn’t. I’m referring to people who, if they bought a Corvette, would represent a conquest sale for GM. People who have driven BMW, Mercedes or Porsche in the past.

Right now, three acquaintences are Corvette-intending, but are dragging feet out of concern for what their peer group will think about them driving an American or GM car. It’s not rational. They think a Corvette is exciting, beautiful, as reliable as sports cars get. It’s purely social and street-cred fear. My guess is that this is more pronounced with Corvette in coastal California than it is for the market as a whole, since generally

I agree true Corvette fans love the car for what it is. The people I’m referring to have admired the car but never before bought one. C6 beckons. They’ve been German or Japanese car buyers their adult lives but they love the C6. Like XLR-V, I used to get unsolicited comments on my Corvette almost daily, and more than a few were of the “I wish I had the courage” flavor, and not in reference to reliability concerns. The GM or American sourcing weighs heavily on their decision. There are a lot of reasonably successful people who are status buyers, having delegated to others what constitutes said status. Maybe it’s a tech and finance sector trait, but material success and social confidence aren’t highly correlated. This is more common than TTAC readers appreciate. Sheep are plentiful.

But the guy who seems to live in mortal terror that his friends will find out that he chose a domestic and so he chooses the import out of fear? That guy only exists in your mind.

I wish you were right. But you’re not. That guy is a flesh and blood reality I meet regularly in socially status-conscious coastal cities.

Phil

I see this fairly often in people who genuinely admire the Corvette but don’t want the social stigma of driving a GM car.

Does this ever happen? In the real world? Because everybody I know who is a corvette fan loves the Corvette not GM. They don’t give a crap who makes it – it’s a Corvette. That’s enough for them.

The Corvette is one vehicle whose name and image transcend the brand. I’ll bet you that a significant number of people who can recognize a corvette on sight couldn’t even tell you what company makes it.

If someone genuinely wants a Corvette, they’ll get a corvette. The social benefits of owning a Corvette far, far outweigh the potential negative effects of owning a GM car. And would a true Corvette owner really care what a bunch of import car snobs think anyway?

Once again, Phil, I think you’ve created a straw man: This imaginary car buyer who really likes American cars but is afraid to buy them because of what his neighbors might think. I’ve never met that guy, never seen that guy, never even heard of that guy until you posited that he existed.

Now, the guy who gave Detroit lots of his money because he thought it was the right thing to do to support the “home team” and got disgusted at the way he was treated, and vowed never to go back? I see that guy a lot.

Or the guy who compares equal products from both import and domestic brands and notices that the domestics always seem cheaper, poorer quality and evidence of a poor effort overall? I know that guy. I am that guy.

But the guy who seems to live in mortal terror that his friends will find out that he chose a domestic and so he chooses the import out of fear? That guy only exists in your mind.

http://www.lyricsondemand.com/t/teamamericalyrics/freedomisntfreelyrics.html

…while calling someone a “bigot” for purchasing a superior product from people who are of a different race…that twisted logic just doesn’t flow too well.

The intimidation aspect of the UAW’s reaction to foreign car ownership is not something I endorse, but private property rights imply a certain amount of socially-acceptable intimidation.

“Import bigotry” is unrelated to race. Other forms of bigotry might be related to race, but that’s not at all this issue.

You see…most people only want a car or a truck. The only color they see is the color of the paint on the vehicle itself. And even then they get to choose the color which suits them best.

Perhaps. But their purchase still represents either a consciously-chosen or foregone opportunity to shape their world.

many U.S. citizens would absolutely NOT like a world without Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, Subaru, etc.

Nor would I, even though I haven’t yet had reason to do business with any of the companies you mention. There is room in our market for the full mix.

Conversely, a great deal of GM’s pain is a direct result of ex-customers “CHOOSING” NOT to support them. Yes, customers (American citizens) are saying quite clearly, a world without GM is a world in which they are better off. I can’t argue with them either…because they are making decisions which are best for them.

True. But those buyers may not be making the choice that leaves them better off when the social and economic context of their decision is factored in. In any case, it is only the import bigot’s refusal to consider and evaluate competitive domestic products that is the behavior in question. If open-minded evaluation and consideration of the true context of the purchase still results in an import sale, fine.

So to answer your question, YES, the U.S. public really DOES believe a world without GM is a very good thing!!!

Well not everyone, right? The portion of the US public doing business with GM doesn’t want GM gone. But this isn’t GM-specific. The half of the market still doing business with the Detroit 3 wants a world with them in it. Some of the people not doing business with Detroit’s automakers may also see the value of retaining them. The aim is to expand that population and the perceived context of a buying decision. Certainly if most people come to believe their world is better without US companies making automobiles, then that is the world we’ll have. The carmakers have to do their part to win the sale, and consumers have to give them a chance when they show competitive output, for the result to be produced from any measure of objectivity.

Phil

The logic which states it is within one’s own set of RIGHTS to carry out acts of INTIMIDATION which are harmful…and which are certainly morally repugnant…to further one’s own political agenda…

…while calling someone a “bigot” for purchasing a superior product from people who are of a different race…that twisted logic just doesn’t flow too well.

You see…most people only want a car or a truck. The only color they see is the color of the paint on the vehicle itself. And even then they get to choose the color which suits them best.

Also, regarding the question of “What kind of country do ‘we’ REALLY want?”: Well, the country we want is the one we support with our labor. What is money but labor? Furthermore, I think I can speak with confidence when I say many U.S. citizens would absolutely NOT like a world without Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, Subaru, etc. You see, the customer has an equal say-so in how healthy these companies really are. These companies are thriving because U.S. citizens in part WANT them to thrive…as demonstrated in their purchasing decisions.

Conversely, a great deal of GM’s pain is a direct result of ex-customers “CHOOSING” NOT to support them. Yes, customers (American citizens) are saying quite clearly, a world without GM is a world in which they are better off. I can’t argue with them either…because they are making decisions which are best for them.

So to answer your question, YES, the U.S. public really DOES believe a world without GM is a very good thing!!!

I don’t dispute the claim that import bigotry coexists with brand-specific bigotry on the domestic side. But the import bigotry is harmful to the US economy, and the domestic bigotry isn’t now. However, I’ve been clear in prior posts that I prefer there’s no buyer bigotry in play, That’s just not going to happen anytime soon.

Then there was the spat where the UAW had long given permission to Marine reservists to park in a union owned parking lot. The UAW then told the Marines that they would not be allowed to park any Japanese cars nor any cars displaying pro-Bush bumper stickers in the lot. That seems to meet the definition of bigotry, particularly the part about being “intolerant of those who differ”.

Yup. It’s not the way I’d do it, but those lots were the UAW’s to set the rules so they’re within their rights to do so.

Phil

We’ve had this argument before, but the dictionary remains quite clear on the definition of a bigot and a person who for whatever reason buys Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans or BMWs is no more a bigot than is the loyal Ford truck buyer. There have been many instances, particularly in the Midwest, where Japanese car buyers are physically intimidated and their vehicles vandalized by loyal Detroit buyers … but I’ve never seen the same done the other way around.

Then there was the spat where the UAW had long given permission to Marine reservists to park in a union owned parking lot. The UAW then told the Marines that they would not be allowed to park any Japanese cars nor any cars displaying pro-Bush bumper stickers in the lot. That seems to meet the definition of bigotry, particularly the part about being “intolerant of those who differ”. See: http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0503/13/C01-115531.htm

But, I have a little confession to make…I AM a GM bigot!! I never started out that way. Referring to those “Chances” the foreigners simply asked for…and received…I too gave GM many chances. I’m driving one this very moment. Each and every time without fail (too bad their cars aren’t as fail-proof!)…each and every time I pay for substandard junk. The thinking is this: The customer pays for junk, receives substandard treatment (both in person at the dealership and financially)…and guess what? They are supposed to LOVE it…and they will KEEP coming back, time and time again!!

That is GM’s business model.

Any company which is founded upon such Customer-oriented bigotry is doomed to fail.

Do the US automakers REALLY have such a low opinion of the American public? Bigotry, plain and simple.

Unfortunately, at least in the UK, Detroit have had their second chance and their third. They have had ample time to change their perception around and failed at all chances. Which is why I discount them (no pun intended) from my shopping list. To have Detroit say, on their umpteenth chance, “we’ve changed, try us again”, isn’t enough. They still won’t stand behind their products (see Hyundai and 5 year guarantees) and on a purchase which will rund into tens of thousands of pounds, that’s a chance I’m not willing to take.

Detroit do make some lovely cars (Chevy Corvette) but unless they start stepping up to the mark, I’m not interested.

Phil, you made some great points that are truly insightful. M

any people today buy strictly based on what is "hot" or "trendy" with their friends or with popular culture! By the time ten years have passed, today's vehicles will have been changed two or three times!

When Americans started trying Acura,Lexus, and Infiniti, they didn't have 10 yrs. of data,service history, or reliability. The reutations from positive press and Honda,Toyota, and Nissan customers was enough to spend $30,000-plus on "New" nameplates and designs. You wouldn't know if a new or established brand is any good, unless you give them consideration with an open mind.

Many of us have no idea what the latest J.D. Power quality rankings say about numerous American brands (Buick/Cadillac/Lincoln/Mercury/Saturn) as compared to even BMW or Mercedes. How many have gone into the Customer Waiting rooms at the Import dealerships and asked the customers directly, about their dealership experiences.

Do Americans honestly think that no one in America knows how to build an excellent car or truck? The big three still have to accept the blame for pushing defective cars out of the door or having too much work on a person's job to get high quality in the time allowed due to job-cut pressures! Many,many times, the Assemblers fail cars during inspections, and the Supervisors don't want repairs to show up or to pay overtime, so they ship the car to the dealer anyway, over the objections of the operator or Repair-person!

The Assembler gets the blame as not being quality-conscious or poorly-educated or uncaring!

The Company (any of the Big Three) says we gotta catch up to the Japanese,Germans,and Koreans, and we need to lower your pay to be more an a level playing-field with with our competition! The Big three Exec. is making 5 or 10 times what the Toyota/Honda/Nissan/Mercedes CEO or executive is making!

The Big three is gonna have to come to grips with the truth: you cannot Cherry-pick the parts of the Japanese Assembly system to catch up to them and others in quality; you are going to have to do it all in the name of the customer! No stupid shortcuts, and hollering at your Inspectors (your last line-of-defense against junk hitting the streets!

Fix the damn problems at the source, and you will have quality at the end, thereby SATISFYING THE CUSTOMER!

Thats the problem. We’ve been sold a big pile of empty promises before,more than once. They can claim “we build a good car now” until the cows come home. But until enough time passes to prove their goods now match their rhetoric, I no longer believe them.

Everything I have to say about this topic is dispersed throughout an 1100+ post thread elsewhere here, but I’ll add once again: We all have a choice as to how long we carry a grudge from the past. If you care about retaining these companies, you’re capable of giving them a fresh start. If you don’t, you won’t. It’s every buyer’s choice and whether you think you’re making one or not regarding the composition of your country, if you’re American you are.

Phil

Here we go again… “We’ve changed! We ‘Get It’. Quality is job 1, etc, etc”.

Thats the problem. We’ve been sold a big pile of empty promises before,more than once. They can claim “we build a good car now” until the cows come home. But until enough time passes to prove their goods now match their rhetoric, I no longer believe them.

And to make matters worse, Detroit has burned so many people for so long that yes, it has even impacted the children of their victims. Children that have never rode in a Detroit car because their parents gave up on them. When they ask mom and dad why, they tell them. Detroit makes crap cars and we can’t afford to gamble on them any more.

Perhaps they just don’t understand the scale of how bad they blew it. Like a cheating husband who can’t understand why his wife left him after catching him in his 3rd affair.

(my other fave bumper sticker: Ashes to ashes, dust to dust: If it weren’t for Chevy, our tools would rust)

To win me back, Detroit will need to build great cars that don’t break, look better than the japanese, cost 40% less than the japanese (a few thousand is *not* enough for me to take the plunge on an unknown), and do it for 10 years to convince me that it’s not a fluke. since it’s impossible, give up. pack up your VEBA and go away.

Well, no, it’s as intended. I do believe import bigots are essentially operating on unfounded prejudice. The import bigot has either had no prior experience owning a Detroit 3 vehicle, or their experience was so distant as to be unrelated to these companies’ capability to build a good car now.

The import bigot’s prejudice moves into a grayer area when they are excluding Detroit 3 makers on basis of perceived negative social value to driving one of their cars even if they like them. I see this fairly often in people who genuinely admire the Corvette but don’t want the social stigma of driving a GM car. And I’m talking about people who believe the car is as reliable as sports cars get. Sometimes spouses are the problem. Guy is convinced the car is fine, but his wife turns up her nose and says she wants to be seen in a German car.

There are gradients and, sure, some “founded prejudice” comes into play. But even then, more often than not, there’s been no consideration of what’s changed in these manufacturers, and how some of their latest products show it.

Detroit will have to (re)earn the trust of American buyers the same way the Japanese earned it. It will take some time. A couple of years of JD Powers isn’t enough.

Perhaps. But if Americans really understand what’s at stake here, they will set aside their “founded prejudice” and look at Detroit’s offerings with fresh eyes, and act on what’s actionable. They have a shared stake in the continuity of these firms and if they take that stake seriously, waiting for whatever constitutes “proof” is not an option. Detroit is moving in the right direction to win back trust. We need accelerated consideration on the consumer side too.

Phil

When the Europeans sold Simcas, DKW’s, Hillmans, Austins, etc. in the US in the fifties, the sold like hot cakes for a couple of years, until everyone realized how fragile they were (VW and Mercedes excepted). Overnight, no one would touch them. Renault tried for twenty more years to fight this “bigotry”.

In reality, buyers were selectively responding intelligently to the reputation these cars deserved, and embraced the exception (VW).

The same situation is still at work with Detroit today; too many had bad experiences with their products. The result is not bigotry! It’s prudent, intelligent skepticism in response to prior actual experiences. It has nothing to do with prejudice.

Detroit will have to (re)earn the trust of American buyers the same way the Japanese earned it. It will take some time. A couple of years of JD Powers isn’t enough.

And thanks, Phil – I thought you might have a different spin on RF’s statement. Your consistency and perseverance are admirable traits, even to those who might hold different opinions.

Yup, true enough. I was alongside an SC300 for about eight miles on the freeway today and was thinking the same thing, how well it has held up visually in the context of 16 years having passed. It’s tasteful, modest and sleek, and still looks modern.

Phil