You might be forgiven for thinking that a major lesson of GM and Chrysler’s kicking-and-screaming-and-sucking-down-tax-dollars reorganization was that less is more when it comes to brands. Only you’d still be wrong. Chrysler appears to be adding brands faster than GM shed them, as the Pentastar adjusts to life under its Italian overlords. We’ve already heard that the Fiat 500 will be America’s only Fiat-branded product, that Chrysler is supposed to become a Cadillac competitor, Alfas are en route, Dodge and Jeep will stick around, and somehow Mopar is a brand as well. Well, let’s throw another log on that fire. Edmunds Inside Line is confirming wild-ass rumors (by way of anonymous sources, of course) that Ram will become a standalone brand, selling pickups, vans, SUVs and commercial vehicles. Why? In order to “allow [Dodge] to develop as an affordable performance-car brand,” goes Inside Line’s insider’s line. So why not just throw Lancia into the mix and give ChryCo a GM-tastic eight-brand lineup?
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Edmunds Inside Line is confirming wild-ass rumors (by way of anonymous sources, of course) that Dodge will become a standalone brand, selling pickups, vans, SUVs and commercial vehicles.
——–
I thought Dodge was a standalone brand for the past many years. Do we really need anonymous sources to know that?
Plus, the title says “Ram”, there isn’t a single mentioning of “Ram” in the entire piece.
…that Dodge will become a standalone brand, selling pickups, vans, SUVs and commercial vehicles. Why? In order to “allow [Dodge] to develop as an affordable performance-car brand,”
Was that supposed to read, “…that Ram will become…”?
That’s right guys, Ram will become a stand alone brand. I guess my brain had issues with typing such nonsense and I subconsciously wrote “Dodge.” Cognitive dissonance FTW!
Text amended.
Good God almighty this is a bad idea. My previous slight optimism that Fiatsler wouldn’t be as big a failure as new GM are all gone.
There wasn’t much wrong with ChryslerCo’s branding in the first place (Compass excluded)- they had product/quality issues.
The only positive memories the Dodge brand carries is the Ram and musclecars. If there aren’t any plans to sell either under that banner, then Dodge losses most of its fanbase. A major part of future customers are going to have to be conquest sales, and there’s no chance in hell of that working.
Is there something wrong with making Fiat the “affordable sporty brand” and keeping Dodge the way it is, just with improved product quality? Do they even need an entire brand devoted to sportiness?!
Why even bother with this crap when all the dealers are trying to be brand consolidated anyway? So now we’ll have “Chrysler-Jeep-Alfa Romeo-Fiat-RAM” dealers? That makes my local “Cadillac-GMC-Buick-Chevrolet” shop look downright logical.
Why not just bring back Desoto and Eagle while they are at it?
dreams of glory
I wonder if FIAT is going to phase out the Dodge and Chrysler brand in favor of their own brands and RAM and Jeep.
So Dodge will become Chrysler’s Pontiac?
I think it’s a diversion. The only possible gain to separate the the trucks from the cars, is a scenario where the entire Dodge brand is discontinued. Performance-oriented cars in the Fiat empire? That spells Alfa.
This has to be a result of the Dopeler (sic) Effect: the tendency of dumb ideas to seem smart when they come at you really fast.
I wonder if FIAT is going to phase out the Dodge and Chrysler brand in favor of their own brands and RAM and Jeep.
That makes about 90000% more sense than this plan.
Even if that’s goal though, I still think dropping the “Dodge” off the Ram and minivans would be a mistake.
If Chrysler is going to compete with Cadillac, and Dodge is going to be a sport brand, then where is the mainstream brand? My guess is that Dodge will only be about as sporty as Pontiac was (one or two actual performance models and a bunch of rebadged mainstream stuff with garish styling elements tacked on), while Chrysler will be Acura at best, Mercury at worst.
so ok, even if they take RAMs seperate
and “allow [Dodge] to develop as an affordable performance-car brand,”
they CANT rebadge Alfas as dodges, coz alfas sell with a premium (as i said before, audi money).
so there goes that affordable part.
sure, they can lower the price (and thereby the quality of alfas) to meet dodge price-tags, but that would be killing Alfa as a brand, it would loose any appeal
and theres still the issue of the mainstream brand, dodge is that now, but dodge moving upmarket (Alfas) and fiat only being sold as
fiat500, whats left for joe-regular?
what i believe is… all this hockuspockus will just drain more money outta chrysler, and later on, outta fiat as they get more interconnected, and kill both companies off
Ramit! That makes no sense.
”
I wonder if FIAT is going to phase out the Dodge and Chrysler brand in favor of their own brands and RAM and Jeep.”
Yep
The Inside Line story uses the word “likely” twice and cites no sources. I’ll believe this when I actually see the announcement from Chrysler.
Presentation is everything. Park a Fiat 800 next to a Dodge Ram truck and neither will look good to buyers. One will look like it needs an Exxon tanker and the other will look like its supposed to be used on orange plastic track.
Has somebody slipped an hallucinogenic into the water at Chrysler?
It certainly looks like they’re separating the crown jewels as individual parts. Chrysler is meaningless, Plymouth is long gone and Dodge can’t find an identity under the corporate structure. There you have to make the brands the identity. There isn’t many in the portfolio than can take that load. Possibly the Challenger or a division based on the LX platforms, RAM and of course, Jeep.
Once you have successfully exploited it, then it’s easy to sell. About the only assets that Chryco has left.
Gardiner Westbound :
No hallucinogens my friend, they just forgot to take their medications.
Why stop there? Let’s bring back Imperial, Eagle and DeSoto!
I have a question for the Europeans out there, or anyone with experience…
Are FIAT’s as bad of cars as they appear to be? I have looked at their website and have no idea why anyone would buy one. I see nothing that would sell to Americans. No product that could be altered to be a Chrysler or Dodge. What exactly is the plan here?
why would Cerebus/Fiat need to create another brand, wabbout DeSoto? or Plymouth? The sad thing is that people will buy it. The same rocket surgeons who bought into the “hemi” BS.
Call me crazy but I can see some method to this madness. Try this on for size:
Fiat = small affordable cars
Chrysler = entry-level luxury cars
Dodge = American muscle cars
Alfa Romeo = European sports cars
Ram = trucks
Jeep = SUV’s
It makes more sense than GM:
Chevy = Everything
GMC = same trucks as Chevy
Buick = same cars as Chevy but with leather
Cadillac = space ships
That said, it’s one thing to have good market segmentation, but it has very little to do with making a decent car.
Why do I get the sense that if they’d tried to keep only three badges and, e.g., sell the 500 as a Dodge or Chrysler, the B&B would’ve raised up cries of “brand dilution”?
I’m gonna play Devil’s Advocate here: maybe it’s a good thing that, unlike GM or even Ford, Fiatsler actually has some idea of what they want their brands to mean. In theory it actually looks like a nice spread – you’ve got Fiats for cheeky entry-level cars, Dodge and maybe Alfa for sporty (or near-sporty) cars, Chrysler for luxury (or near-luxury) cars, Jeep for off-roading, “Ram” for anything big enough to generate its own gravitational field. Compared to Chevy, for example, these are all pretty darn focused, and that should sound good if you really think “branding is everything.” In a year or three – again, in theory – Joe Fourbanger will have a good sense for what the cars under each Chrysliat brand are for, while he may still be stumped about Mercury or Chevy or Buick or Ford.
Now, the thing is, we don’t live in the world of theory. Out here in Reality, Chrysler and Dodge (and if you’re a little older, Fiat and Alfa) are the most damaged brands in the biz and have been for some time. Joe Fourbanger reads CR on occasion, and he doesn’t like what he’s heard. What does Joe think of these brands? “Sporty”? “Luxurious”? Try “junk”. And it’s gonna take a long time for Joe to come around, no matter what improvements Chrysliat makes over the short term. And needless to say, a recession might not be the best time to start multiplying badges.
In the end, I could go either way on this. I just can’t say how much difference it makes to focus your brands and introduce new ones when the stuff you’re selling is still two or three rungs below the leaders (and when the public knows it).
Edit: damn! Jonny b beat me to it.
“Are FIAT’s as bad of cars as they appear to be? “
As with many other companies, Fiats biggest market is its home market, the Italian. Not only because they own 90% of the Italian brands, but also, that Fiat historically have concentrated on the type of cars that appeal to Italians, in price, size, and so on. Historically, Fiat has been a world leader in small to mid-size cars, but failed royally when it comes to larger cars. The last time they tried something in the big league, was the JV between Fiat/Lancia and Saab. When Fiat bought Alfa, they got one as well. If I’m not mistaken, the current Alfa 166 is an offspring of that platform:
http://ateupwithmotor.com/model-histories/luxury-and-personal-luxury-cars/169-four-of-a-kind-alfa-romeo-164.html
Speaking generally, the Italians fails as miserably in making big cars, as the American fails to deliver a decent sub-compact. Quality-wise, since the late 90’s, there are no big difference between the German, Italian, French or whatever European factories. Ford has factories in Turkey and in Spain. Porsche make Boxster-bodies in Finland, Skoda in the Chech Republic is on par with its stablemate Audi TT qualitywise. The Italians doesn’t differ much from the rest, it’s more or less the same.
jonny b
===
Fiat = small affordable cars
Chrysler = entry-level luxury cars
Dodge = American muscle cars
Alfa Romeo = European sports cars
Ram = trucks
Jeep = SUV’s
===
I’d agree with that sentiment, however at present the lineup is:
Fiat = Small cars most people in North America would be afraid to drive because of the silly idea that small engines go slow and small cars are bad in crash tests.
Chrysler = Ugly cars that no one is buying.
Dodge = Slightly cheaper ugly cars that no one is buying.
Alfa Romeo = Great sporty saloons and roadsters that have a terrible reliability reputation.
Ram = Ugh… ok the trucks look good, but apart from that their only new van is an old mercedes design.
Jeep = SUV’s that no one is going to buy because it almost guaranteed that gas prices will go up again.
And with a complete lack of any new designs this is how it will remain for several years – losing cash. It’s going to go very – very wrong.
“I see nothing that would sell to Americans. No product that could be altered to be a Chrysler or Dodge. What exactly is the plan here?”
You can forget that Chrysler will ever develop a platform on its own. Any new car will have bits and pieces of everything in Fiats catalogue. When the Alfa 159 debuted in 2005, it came on the GM/F-platform. Due to the divorce between GM and Fiat, that car was the only one on that platform. When the 159 is refreshed or replaced, expect the next Chrysler Sebring to share its platform, either a new one or redeveloped from the 2005 model.
Although I sincerely doubt that anything can save Chrysler, I do see the logic in separating Dodge cars from Ram trucks. Because Dodge has been more successful with trucks and minivans than cars, the “Ram Tough” pitch has begun to typify the whole range. And it really isn’t appropriate branding for a car company that hopes to compete in the mainstream … and sell to female buyers. Furthermore, from a visual perspective the creep of truck styling cues into Dodge cars over the past few years has been an umitigated disaster IMO. Leave the truck grills and ram’s horn badges on the trucks … where they belong.
This isn’t Fiat wasting our money to establish a brand new brand–the Ram name is well-established and appreciated by Chryco truck buyers already. Let them have it and let’s see what Fiat can do with a Dodge brand that’s clearly focused on passenger cars.
@ Sinistermisterman,
My brain tells me your right but my heart wishes you were wrong. I have some strong attachments to some of these brands and I’m sure some of the B&B feel the same way. I fondly remember ski trips in beat-up but brave Cherokees. My buddy’s ‘67 Charger is the coolest car I’ve ever been in. And what car lover doesn’t swoon at the sight of topless red alfa spider on a sunny day. You know it’s in the shop 6 days out of 7, but for a moment you just don’t care.
That’s the thing with Dodge, Jeep, Alfa and Fiat. They’ve always appealed more to the heart than the head. The automotive landscape would be a boring place without them. I wish them luck.
seanx37 :
I have a question for the Europeans out there, or anyone with experience…
Are FIAT’s as bad of cars as they appear to be? I have looked at their website and have no idea why anyone would buy one. I see nothing that would sell to Americans. No product that could be altered to be a Chrysler or Dodge. What exactly is the plan here?
well yea, that’s what i’ve been saying. you cant
sell fiats in the states. fiats arent that bad. yea they have some bad reputation but improvements have been made (e.g. Alfa got some german head to bring in quality) and sure their lineup is more Euro-centric.
but what Rod Panhard said, you cant sell RAMs and dodges and fiats alongside eachother.
“its just wrong”
sure fiastler still gonna try to quickfix everything with facelifts….
At first, I thought someone had been drinking way too much Red Bull, but this isn’t a bad idea when you stop to think about it.
I kinda like Chrysler’s mentality here – they’re willing to take risks and stomp on preconceived notions.
FreedMike :
oh man mike, take the risk, drink a redbull, jump of the cliff & maybe “redbull will give you wings”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cM-KYn99mnY&feature=related
ZekeToronto :
September 25th, 2009 at 7:55 pm
Although I sincerely doubt that anything can save Chrysler, I do see the logic in separating Dodge cars from Ram trucks. Because Dodge has been more successful with trucks and minivans than cars, the “Ram Tough” pitch has begun to typify the whole range. And it really isn’t appropriate branding for a car company that hopes to compete in the mainstream … and sell to female buyers. Furthermore, from a visual perspective the creep of truck styling cues into Dodge cars over the past few years has been an umitigated disaster IMO. Leave the truck grills and ram’s horn badges on the trucks … where they belong.
I can’t help but wonder whether this is at least part of the motivation behind the Joan Rivers treatment ordered for several Mopar machines. After all, if Fiatsler does plan to spinoff RAM into its own nameplate, it wouldn’t do to have Dodge vehicles with RAM snouts.
At first, this whole thing sounded ridiculous to me. The last thing Chrysler needs is another brand!
But then I remembered a TTAC commentary, a month or two ago, about how somebody somewhere would judge the possible success of a name by adding the word “Anal” in front of it.
Suddenly this whole Ram thing makes sense!
“When the Alfa 159 debuted in 2005, it came on the GM/F-platform. Due to the divorce between GM and Fiat, that car was the only one on that platform. When the 159 is refreshed or replaced, expect the next Chrysler Sebring to share its platform, either a new one or redeveloped from the 2005 model.”
So, the next Sebring is going to be on the last Chevy Malibu platform? WTF? That car wasn’t very good to begin with. Let alone enough to compete with…well anything. By then a new Accord,Sonata, and Camry will arrive. Who the hell is going to buy a Fiat designed, Malibu platformed Sebring with a drive train from god knows where?
For the record, I live in Warren, Mi. I have friends and family who work for Chrysler. I have an interest in them survival.
I kinda like Chrysler’s mentality here – they’re willing to take risks and stomp on preconceived notions.
I just don’t see how this is a risk worth taking.
At this point, Dodge is the Ram. Look at the brand’s logo, the “Grab Life by the Horns” slogan, the Ram being the first ChryslerCo production vehicle to get the 5.7L V8, etc.
The main defense of this plan is that super-focused brands are a good idea. Well, even if that’s right, this plan is still not the way to do it.
They should make Dodge the truck/van/heavy brand. Just get rid of the Dodge cars that no one really likes that much anyway.
Then either leave the car side to the Chrysler/Fiat/Alfa banners. Or, they could throw Plymouth back out there. It would take 10 minutes to Barracuda-fy the Challenger and Fury-fy the Charger. Then the PT Cruiser could slide over and free up luxury showroom space for the Chrysler brand. Plus, Plymouth coming back could also be marketed as an iconic resurrection of sorts.
Hell, they could make an all new brand and it would be better than this WTF? strategy.
Instead, the plan is to take a burly truck brand in Dodge and take away the trucks and vans that largely define it in a bizarre attempt to completely re-invent it as a Mazda-like thing.
At best I see it accomplishing nothing because the trucks and “sporty” Dodges will be sold alongside each other at the same dealerships. At worst, it will roast the Dodge brand and confuse people.
From what I gleaned from the article, this may be a somewhat curious business decision but it won’t be the unmitigated bankruptcy-initiating disaster that GM’s exercise in branding was unless Fiatsler starts offering badge-engineered trucks, vans, and SUV’s as Dodges, Chryslers, et al and opens a bunch of Ram-only dealerships.
“…Cognitive dissonance”
I believe diet and exercise can control the malady.
‘Ram’ trucks?I’m still getting over the extinction of ‘Fargo’ trucks.
http://www.mystarcollectorcar.com/
silly idea that small engines go slow and small cars are bad in crash tests
Sounds more like a fact than a “silly idea”. Aside from turbo/supercharging the hell out of a little engine, it’s going to be slow. Unless you put it in a super light car, but then it’d not do too hot in a crash test would it?
Wouldn’t it make sense to have the Jeep brand carry SUVs AND trucks (and other commercial vehicles)? Isn’t this part of the Jeep heritage?
When the Alfa 159 debuted in 2005, it came on the GM/F-platform. Due to the divorce between GM and Fiat, that car was the only one on that platform. When the 159 is refreshed or replaced, expect the next Chrysler Sebring to share its platform, either a new one or redeveloped from the 2005 model.
This is absolutely NOT true. The 159 had a protracted gestation and was originally supposed to be on first-generation Epsilon. Meanwhile, the totally different ‘Premium’ platform was being jointly developed by Fiat, Saab and GM North America, to be used for the new (stillborn) 9-5, 166-replacing 169, Cadillac and Buick, and perhaps also a new large Lancia. One by one, the GM brands dropped out, citing rising cost. When the final GM brand (Saab) dropped out of the project, Alfa did not want to lose all of the development put into Premium, but the 169 was nowhere near ready and in any case, not a priority. So to save the platform, they shifted the 159 and Brera/Spider onto it. This entailed some compromises; Premium is both front-drive/AWD and rear-drive capable, but to carry over as much as possible from the Epsilon 159, they kept the front-drive/Q4 layout rather than switching to rear-drive. This is also the reason why the Premium platform has exactly the same wheelbase as the European Epsilon (2700mm). But it is a completely different chassis to a Malibu – it has double-A-arm front suspension for example, and even now has exceptionally high torsional rigidity for its class.
Two thoughts. First, a lesson from ancient history. In 1955, Chrysler spun Imperial off as a separate brand. From 1955 to , i believe, 1973, Imperial was its own brand. Except that EVERYONE continued to call it a Chrysler Imperial. In 1974, Imperial was demoted to being a Chrysler model again, then was discontinued after 1975. The moral here is that the truck will be called a Dodge Ram for however long this experiment lasts.
Second idea is that maybe this is not about branding so much as it is about franchise laws. Spinning off Ram as a separate brand allows the company to award Ram franchises to any of its dealers or to allow new dealers that stand alone or can dual with others without truck lines.
In my area, a large Dodge dealership was closed. Across the street is a large and successful Chrysler Jeep dealer. Giving them a Ram franchise would plug the single hole in their lineup without adding a lot of redundant vehicles.
So, maybe this will be a painless way to kill off dodge without franchise law problems if they managed to get rid of all the Dodge-only stores already.
OK, a third thought. At least, unlike GM, these guys don’t think they can have a big success by doing what they were already doing anyway. I am encouraged that it is not business as usual at Chrysler.
perception is everything. Chrysler is perceived as a stock swindle made good by government with taxpayerbucks. FIAT stands for Fix It Again, Tony. It is a winning combo allright.
Johnny B wrote:
“Fiat = small affordable cars
Chrysler = entry-level luxury cars
Dodge = American muscle cars
Alfa Romeo = European sports cars
Ram = trucks
Jeep = SUV’s
It makes more sense than GM:
Chevy = Everything
GMC = same trucks as Chevy
Buick = same cars as Chevy but with leather
Cadillac = space ships”
I think that’s the best construction on this report as any. Hope it turns out to be true. Dodge’s small affordable cars appeal to no one except rental Co. execs. Chrysler only has its vans going for it. Pickups are still fairly strong as well, so you can call them whatever without hurting the sales.
However the first glance perception of this is: “Mr Chrysler the cancer appears to be in remission, feel free to light up a non filter Camel at any time.”
As other posters have commented, the weak link will be Fiat’s and Alfas. Will they fill in the gaps in the Chrysler line up or will they open them even further?
@HPE:
“This is absolutely NOT true.”
So, what in my statement wasn’t true? I just quoted the Wikipedia page on the 159:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa_Romeo_159
Hmm, here’s a thought, triggered by another comment above.
So, the Ram brand takes the trucks and such, and Dodges get rapid overhauls to look different than the Ram products. So, what would they look like?
Answer: Fiats. They’ll remake ‘em in a purely cosmetic way (front and rear and trim and wheels), and redo the interiors a la Caliber, to resemble Fiat products. They’ll call that the “New Dodge.”
Then they’ll stop developing new Dodges, and they’ll just start bringing the Fiats over for a seamless product transition. The New Dodge look will be launched on American-designed products, and so will have some credibility, so that when the cars turn into Fiats most consumers won’t realize what’s happened.
That’s really the only reason for doing the redesign so quickly — to establish the Fiat look as the New Dodge look as rapidly as possible so they can kick off the product transition plan. This is a strategy straight out of Nissan, once Ghosn came in; major facelifts on their current cars that made ‘em look like Renaults, then they started bringing the Renaults in (Versa et al.)
Expect to see the same thing with Chrysler and Alfa Romeo, too.
davejay :
you never saw a renault in your life. nissans dont resemble anything renault. yes they have offerings for the same niches & share the platforms, but are visually completely different.
ajla :
September 25th, 2009 at 9:32 pm
They should make Dodge the truck/van/heavy brand. Just get rid of the Dodge cars that no one really likes that much anyway.
The problem is that this leaves them with no entry level brand.
Considering Cerberus completely gutted Chryco’s R&D thereby leaving zero new product in the pipeline and Fiat’s need to get their platforms/vehicles on sale in the US ASAP I don’t think it really makes much difference how they go about marketing the vehicles. They just need to get the vehicles on the market. If the vehicles themselves are well accepted by the car buying public the branding/marketing becomes almost irrelevant IMO. Most buyers seek out vehicles they like for reasons other than how the manufacturer markets them. The recipe for success lies in the vehicles themselves not how they are branded/marketed. For instance, if they brought out a well accepted compact car I really don’t think it matters whether they call it a Chrysler, Dodge or Fiat, people will buy it. For obvious reasons they would market near luxury/luxury vehicles under the Chrysler name, SUVs under the Jeep name and trucks under the Ram/Dodge Ram name. To me, establishing a separate Ram brand doesn’t sell any more or any less trucks. Somewhat of an exercise in futility. Fiatsler has a lot of more important issues to address than how to market/what to name their vehicles.