Vehicles that share platforms can have significantly different wheelbases, overall lengths, weights and even tracks. One example would be the CUVs and minivans that are spun from pre-existing compact and subcompact car platforms.

First, the Coupe is NOT made from the Genesis Sedan PLATFORM, which is the mark of relatedness.

Second, most people consider the Genesis SEDAN as a LUXURY sedan (or at least near luxury), and its base prices go from $33,050 for the v6 to $38,050 for the V8.

The “genesis” coupe is not a luxury coupe, and its base prices are $22,750 with the tiny 2.0T (an engine not at all available on the Sedan) and $24,750 for the V6.

Also note that the coupe, even tho a “performance” vehicle, is not available with the V8, with which the SEDAN IS available!

Further, look at some stats:

GENESIS SEDAN, even with the smaller engine (the V6):

115.6″ WB, 195.9″ length, 3,897 LBS wt.

Genesis coupe, in its heaviest form (v6):

111″ WB, 182.3 ” length (ONLY!), 3,389 lbs only!

NOW take any other coupes truly derived from the SEDAN’s platform

Such as the imposing Mercedes S class coupes of 1991-99:

Not only do they have the same engines and, surprisingly, almost identical WEIGHTS with the larger sedans,

They cost much MORE, not much LESS, than the Sedans.

So, in conclusion: If you go buy the “Genesis” coupe, esp. the 2.0T, thinking you are buying the Sedan at Half price, you will be sadly mistaken.

Hyundai deliberately called the coupe the “Genesis” to take advantage of the good reception of the Sedan, and propagates that dishonesty in its advertising, claiming that the coupe has the sedan’s DNA and related BS.

Tiburon was front wheel drive, transverse engine.

The Genesis coupe is rear wheel drive, longetudial engine; it shares rear wheel drive components and basic (specific rear wheel drive only) 3.8 Litre V6 engines with the Genesis sedan; shares automatic transmissions with the Genesis sedan….

Since when can’t a car be sold under one name with two doors and four doors?

Probably 85% to 90% of American cars up until the 1990’s were sold in two door AND four door form.

Even including the 1967-1971 Ford Thunderbird, which could be had with (rear suicide door) four doors.

BTW, Hyundai and Kia have one small advantage over any Japanese branded marque in China. They are not Japanese.

The Chinese have long memories and still recall the massacre of Chinese under the Japanese army in the late 1930’s, in Nanking, wasn’t it? Also the rape of many women.

Of course, we mustn’t forget that both the Japanese and Hitler were mere amateurs compared to Mao and Stalin, who between them killed probably 100 million. Also Pol Pot, a few decades later.

Notice, if you will, that the top ten are all Japanese brands. Also note that Hyundai did pretty well (considering the few cars sold in the UK – since only 45% of the buyers will consider Hyundai. 55% of new cars sold are bought by companies which until recently haven’t even considered “Japanese” brands – never mind South Korean). (OK I may be slightly out here since I haven’t lived in the UK for 16 years but I do get back and visit – tend to see German cars being bought as company cars a lot… including ones with Ford and Vauxhall badges). Yes, only about 45% of UK buyers actually pay for new cars themselves. (It has to do with taxation and perks given by employers).

The big surprise was how reliable the Jaguar X-type was – but you have to also realize this is in its home environment (i.e. in the states, this car is a “loser” because of how few Jag dealers there are and how unfamiliar this car is to virtually all mechanics, who inevitably louse it up if they work on it). The other factor is that the Jaguar X-Type is nothing more than “a British Ford in fancy clothes” so to speak. Hence, there is a certain amount of built-in reliability inherent with well proven, mass produced “bits”.

That prize belongs to Hyundai, which blatantly misnamed and mis-advertises the so-called “Genesis Coupe”, which has NOTHING to do with the Genesis Sedan and its platform. I believe it is just lipstick on the Tiburon Coupe. Which was not half bad, but to call this a “Genesis” is very misleading.

All the more reason as to ask,

“Why did autosavant think I was calling him “dear”"?

Guys, this is similar to the US compared to the UK. In the late 19th century, the UK was still very powerful, but there was no doubt the US would catch and overtake it in industrial production

True, but one major difference exists between the United States of 2009 and Great Britain of 1900 – a great deal of Britain’s wealth was tied up in a vast overseas empire. Britain’s economic decline was mainly due to losing that empire (India, in particular) after the second world war.

America in 2009 basically depends on its internal markets, and international commerce, for its wealth.

The Chinese may end up surpassing us economically in some ways, but they also have massive political difficulties, plus the burden of a billion and a half mouths to feed, that we do not.

Reports of our demise are premature.

“Oh dear” has crossed the Atlantic and is quite common in other parts of the world also.

Oh dear. Oh my. Oh dear me.

“Oh Dear” is a British expression meaning “oh bother”.

I wasn’t referring to you!

FInally, a few car stats from the US markets, to show the breakdown of the major luxury sector brands: (sales for the first 8 months of 2009, and include near-luxury makers)

BMW Group: 160,284
Daimler (MB etc): 130,155
Lexus:131,469
Acura:69,369
Infiniti:53,276
Audi:52,309
Volvo: 42,013
Porsche: 12,729!
Jaguar: 7,794
Saab: 6,444

The numbers are staggeringly low for Jaguar and Saab, they are half the numbers of the far more “exotic” Porsche. Now is the alleged mismanagement by Ford and GM respectively (coincidence?) the sole reason that the two are faring so terribly?

Did I really read this here? Do you know who holds the majority of U.S. debt? Please do not ask for a settlement. It would be disastrous.

I mentioned them, and said “DESPITE M-Bs recent quality problems, and BMW’s lesser ones).

” Or Audi’s? Are you saying that they didn’t have any?”

Not at all, I thought VW-Audi unreliability was notorious, but that has not deterred its sales, NOT because they are German, but because they are the most beautiful car interiors in of all production vehicles, and the exteriors are not that bad either. People also like the FWD and AWD offers, when M-B and BMW did not offer 4wd in everything.

“but Jaguar have to be tortured for it (which I don’t agree with as I own a Jaguar X-Type and it has never given me a problem and I have a surveys to prove it!).”

An X-type? You call that a JAguar? This is perhaps the most dishonest example of “baddge enginering”! As if it was not bad enough that the S-Type was basically a Lincoln LS with different interior and sheetmetal, now we call the Ford Contour a “JAguar”, even with warts and all?

“The only survey that counts, dear, is the actual sales and profits! COnsumers vote with their wallets!”

Really? Consumers don’t care about reliability?

We were talking about the luxury segment, and in that segment, reliability is not a top consideration. If it was, everybody would buy Lexus 460s and nobody Mercs and BMWS and esp, Audis.

” So, what was the real reason for Toyota, Honda and Hyundai’s ascension to near dominant status in the NA car market?”

Again, we were NOT discussing the mid-priced segment, and I will understand it if you are offended if one would compare Jaguars with the above three, even your X _Type, which, if I am not mistaken, is a Ford Contour mechanically and platform-wise.

Really? I know NO Such people. On the CONTRARY, for hundreds of years, starting with the great NApoleon himself, who warned the world of CHina’s might, once it woke up, and more recently with the “Yellow Peril” scares…NO< it was exactly the OPPOSITE. Before DENG set things straight in China, people way OVER estimated its power (but not its potential!)

Of course not, you are inferring things I never even hinted, let alone said, and you did this repeatedly today. These are called “Strawmen”, FYI. I frequently recommend cars to my friends that I would never buy myself. But they are usually Corollas, not.. Nissans. And I recently was convinced to rent an Altima Hybrid instead of the 2nd Gen Prius, at LAX. WHat an utter dawg! Not only did it get 15-25 MPG LESS than the prius, but the poorly built POS broke down and the engine was destroyed. Hertz claimed they had just changed the oil, but there was no oil when I took it back to them, with only 50 miles driven, and got the far superior Prius (which, ironically, rented for $7 a day LESS than the “larger” (LOL) Altima Hybrid!)

And spare me the patronizing attitude, nobody asked for your help, and as farf I am concerned, it is obvious that at least I do not need it!

One problem with the way Auto sales are measured and compared is that invariably, the “number of new cars sold” metric is used.

The bigger question is, what was the average price per actual transaction? In the US it probably was arounf $25,000. In China, probably half that. There are a few high end cars sold there, but most domestics and a few Korean imports sell for under $10-12k there.

More like 5x. The official number is 1.3b, but that is widely discounted as lowballed. All educated guesses point to 1.5b. Many times I have come to a town nobody has ever heard of. I ask: “How many people live here?” And the answer is: “Ah, 4 million or so.” Then I look it up, and it is 9 million.

Ever heard of Chongqing? No? Never? In 2005, he municipality of Chongqing had a registered population of 31 million. God only knows how many unregistered. That unknown city has a population greater than Canada!

Thanks for bringing the debate back to the original intent. Interesting point above. I’d guess more like 50-75, if they do not get distracted…

“As pointed out by other posters they need to develop less reliance on coal in the intermediate term and their large population is a two edged sword.”

Their population is in decline, actually, thanks to the brutal but highly successful one child per family policy. Mao, in his scientific and econ illiteracy, bribed families to have more children, but Deng had enough brains and common sense to 100% reverse that policy.

IF only INDIA would study the Chinese Econ success and learn from it, and try to change! And note that when they started their existence in the late 40s, both India and the PRChina were equally poor (dirt poor), buyt now China is several times wealthier than India.

“respect for excellence (no diversity set asides or affirmative action there)and control of important commodities all play a part in this ascent.”

Partly true. They may not have affirmative action, but they do have nepotism, all commie nations had their “Nomenclatura”, the socialist aristocracy that lived off the sweat of the others and held the highest offices.

“In the US and Europe we have chosen a different path. One that values a cleaner environment, fewer work hours, personal safety and a robust social safety net.”

This is also the Chinese’s choice, but they do not yet have the $ to provide the full benefits to 1.4 billion of their citizens, but they are well on their way there, from what I saw in Shanghai in May-July 06, and by following their progress from the US as well over decades.

“I for one don’t begrudge the Chinese their current success.”

Neither do I, and I welcome their continued succcess. I’d worry of they failed and the ensuing hunger and poverty created unrest and war!

Until then more power to them as they claw their way up the economic ladder.

As pointed out by other posters they need to develop less reliance on coal in the intermediate term and their large population is a two edged sword.

Import restrictions, loose environmental and safety regulations, respect for excellence (no diversity set asides or affirmative action there)and control of important commodities all play a part in this ascent.

These policies all come with a downside but it seems to be a price the Chinese are willing to pay.

In the US and Europe we have chosen a different path. One that values a cleaner environment, fewer work hours, personal safety and a robust social safety net. This combined with a deep respect for other cultures. A noble goal if we can sustain it.

I for one don’t begrudge the Chinese their current success.

The rest is really small change. Rolls sells less than 1,000 vehicles a year, who cares? We are talkign about the big dogs here! And … Toyota and Daihatsu? Give me a break. FOr the US car market, Daihatsu is not evne existent! And what, tell me, did Toyota gain from that purchase, and how are you able to prove it did?”

I’m curious to know why you think Renault-Nissan ISN’T going well. You seem to base this on the fact that you wouldn’t buy one. Now if you can’t spot a flaw in your thinking there, I really can’t help you!

Toyota and Daihatsu. Again, you seem to base your assertion that this is a failure on the grounds that Daihatsu isn’t even existent in the United States. So, the paradigm here is if it isn’t sold in the United States, it can’t be worth anything? What is this? The 1950’s? Also, it’s not about “what did Toyota get out of Daihatsu?”, that was never the issue. It was about mergers and takeovers which worked (which you claimed rarely happened).

“And BMW and Merc has.. less of a pedigree than … Jaguar? Give me a break!!! Will they be forbidden to sell in India? I don’t think so. ANd please, the nest person that tells me about that allegedly all-powerful indian middle class, we have been hearing that for DECADES, but it is CHINA, NOT India, that has a car market TEN TIMES the size of Indias, and an ECONOMY that is ten times India’s too! No disrespect to the Indians, they are well educated and speak far better English than the CHionese, but their hearts are just not in it to be successful, and on top of that, the CRUSHING Bureaucracy in India is a horrendous barrier to success.”

30 years ago, people exactly the same thing about China and how it could never be a superpower. I’m absolutely agog as to how you can dismiss a makret of 1.1 billion people. When economists talk about the BRIC emerging markets, what do you think the I in BRIC stands for? You also seem to forget that the Germans will have to pair up with a local manufacturer if they want to make cars to sell in India (unless they want to be subject to a heavy import tax), where Jaguar and Land Rover won’t have that problem as Tata can set up a local factory and not have to share the profits with anyone.

As for the need for a “reality check” (which, by the way, is a rather disrespectful comment), are you aware of Mercedes’ recent build quality issues? Or Audi’s? Are you saying that they didn’t have any? Or that they DID have some, but they can be dismissed because they’re German, but Jaguar have to be tortured for it (which I don’t agree with as I own a Jaguar X-Type and it has never given me a problem and I have a surveys to prove it!).

“The only survey that counts, dear, is the actual sales and profits! COnsumers vote with their wallets!”

Really? Consumers don’t care about reliability? So, what was the real reason for Toyota, Honda and Hyundai’s ascension to near dominant status in the NA car market? The style of their cars?

Indians love things British, Cricket is the national pasttime. So to drive a Jaguar or Land Rover owned by an Indian company would be a hit for six (cricket term).

P.S. Don’t call me “dear” it’s very patronising, unless you call ALL your carmates “dear”, in which case fine…..

This being said I do like original Minis before BMW vaginized them. But this is mostly because I love the design, I’m sure they’re full of hassles otherwise.

Back to China’s auto industry, it’s budding, it will get huge. The US has given China billions, them building cars with the cash we’ve given them was inevitable. Their car market being bigger than our, also inevitable. There’s 3x+ the Chinese as there are Americans.

I expected you to tell me about Jeep, and even Mini, and I’ll give you Mazda was OK too. Despite all that, Chrysler could not survive even with jeep, and FOrd survived ONLY after they brought in a NON-Auto Person to run it, Mr. Mullaly!

but the others?

Renault-Nissan was more of a merger of equal sized cos, and it is NOT going well, despite the charismatic Mr. Ghosn, both automakers produce mostly crappy products I’d never buy. Even infinitis, which, like Acuras, did not make it as a luxo brand as much as Lexus did.

The rest is really small change. Rolls sells less than 1,000 vehicles a year, who cares? We are talkign about the big dogs here! And … Toyota and Daihatsu? Give me a break. FOr the US car market, Daihatsu is not evne existent! And what, tell me, did Toyota gain from that purchase, and how are you able to prove it did?

“What future do JLR have? Well, they’ll have access to the Indian market. A country with a burgeoning middle and upper class who want luxury cars with pedigrees. ”

And BMW and Merc has.. less of a pedigree than … Jaguar? Give me a break!!! Will they be forbidden to sell in India? I don’t think so. ANd please, the nest person that tells me about that allegedly all-powerful indian middle class, we have been hearing that for DECADES, but it is CHINA, NOT India, that has a car market TEN TIMES the size of Indias, and an ECONOMY that is ten times India’s too! No disrespect to the Indians, they are well educated and speak far better English than the CHionese, but their hearts are just not in it to be successful, and on top of that, the CRUSHING Bureaucracy in India is a horrendous barrier to success.

You really need a reality check here, we are talking about Luxury makers, and despite the success of Lexus and the reliability probkems of Mercedes and some BMWs, these three, plus Audi, RULE. Jag is not even playing. With apologies to Jag fans and owners, JAg was always a poorly made vehicle that looked very good on paper, because they were able to sell it for much less than the real luxury brands, but the reason they could was its shoddy production. A pity, because I loved the exterior styling of the old XJs..

“Oh dear, this old chestnut! Take a look at this survey* which documents the most reliable cars of the last decade and tell me, which is the highest rated non-Japanese car? I’ll give you a clue, it isn’t German.”

The only survey that counts, dear, is the actual sales and profits! COnsumers vote with their wallets! I used to value owner-reported, Cinsumer Reports surveys only, for their unbiasedness, but in my case I noticed that my 98 7 series, which was supposed to be far more unreliable than my previous Accord Coupe, was just as good if not better!!!

And Jag and Volvo and Saab have been unmitigated disasters, and two out of the three will probably die this year, while LExus, BMW, Merc and Audi have prospered, despite all.

That is what counts.

Renault buying Nissan, that was pretty successful. BMW kept hold of Mini and bought Rolls-Royce motors, that was pretty successful. Chrysler bought Jeep from AMC, that was pretty successful. Toyota bought Daihatsu, that was pretty successful. Ford, for years, controlled Mazda, that was pretty successful.

“Range Rover and other ROvers continue to have the most dismal Reliability, dead last after all the domestics and other imports, 400 or so faults per 100 vehicles. WHat future does it have under Tata?”

I can’t even believe you’re asking this one! What future do JLR have? Well, they’ll have access to the Indian market. A country with a burgeoning middle and upper class who want luxury cars with pedigrees. And what could be more appealing than a Jaguar or Land Rover (British marque) owned by a stalwart of the Indian empire? Despite what other people think, there is still a deep respect between Indian and the UK. Not to mention, Land Rover will also be able to sell to the Indian military, now they have Tata backing them. Let’s see Jeep or Humvee try that.

“And these are “initial quallity” and “owner satisfaction” JD Power surveys that mean nothing. Jaguar failed miserably to compete with its natural competitors, Merc, Audi and BMW, all of which are far, far healthier.”

Oh dear, this old chestnut! Take a look at this survey* which documents the most reliable cars of the last decade and tell me, which is the highest rated non-Japanese car? I’ll give you a clue, it isn’t German.

* = http://www.gizmag.com/go/5657/

I ask again, is domestic consumption of cars a RACE? To prove who is more stupid/wasteful?”

Where I live, it is a NECESSITY. Not that I don’t love driving my car, so I would have one anyway.

WHo can tell people what they should want or not? and especially, who can tell me, when there is NO train and NO regular bus service to the nearest airport (30 miles eacxh way) and the cab wants a ridiculous $50 each way, that I should not own a car?

If you want people to switch from cars to mass transit,

1. BUILD the damned mass transit, and

2. price gas at $10 a gallon, or whatever it takes, to make people use the mass transit. BUT I will STILL keep and drive my 98 “MAgnificent 7″! I can’t take it with me, you know!

And while you are at it, tax the living hell out of sugar and saturated fat in the foods eaten by the nutritionally illiterate at KFC and McDonalds! It’s you and me that are paying for their catastrophic health care expenses!