Big Cadillacs are an endangered species. Unnamed "people familiar with the situation" told Bloomberg that Caddy is adding more versions of the CTS and smaller SUVs while putting the replacements for updating the DTS and STS on hold. The Hamtramck, Michigan plant where the DTS is built alongside with the Buick Lucerne is scheduled to switch over to produce the Volt in 2010. What happens to the biggest of Cadillac's cars after that is pretty much up in the air. The future of the STS, which is built in the same plant as the CTS, is equally uncertain. While some industry experts say "it's the absolute right thing to do right now" because of declining sales of the big cars and stricter CAFE standards, they're missing an important point completely: when the DTS goes, Cadillac's last ties with its past also go – remember, DTS originally stood for "Deville Touring Sedan." It will mark the final step in taking Cadillac totally downmarket and mainstreaming a brand that once had a proud luxury heritage. Lincoln's done it and now Cadillac is doing it. Sad. Truly sad.
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It is sad, Frank, but what else did you expect? Everyone told them to imitate BMW, so they tried, and now they’ve probably had to kill their STS/DTS Zeta replacement because they’re broke, which may have been a worthy 7-Series competitor.
Of course that wasn’t the sole reason, but that’s the gist of it.
Goodbye American automobile.
I don’t understand this. Most people slate GM for not building smaller (ergo, more fuel efficient) cars. When GM DO start building said vehicles, we lament it! Why?
This is the way the market is. Audi brought out and are pushing the A3 and their diesel powertrains, Likewise, Lexus are pushing the IS diesel (in the UK) plus their hybrid cars. Mercedes-Benz brought out the A and B class and Bluetec technology, which was a world apart from its top end cars.
If Cadillac carried on making big cars (irrespective what customers want) then Cadillac would die eventually. Cadillac has to change….
It might be sad from a brand history perspective, but let’s not forget that recent large FWD cadillac sedans are horrible pieces of crap, and I really won’t miss them.
I expect GM to start producing a 5 inch stretch to the STS, as Cadillac sells in China. Nice interior!
That’s a nice Cadillac in the picture, how long did they make that body style for? My brother-in-law has one sitting in his garage, more like packed int, that he got from his father-in-law, but I think he said it was a 1950.
While they do need to make those beasts lighter, there is a segment of buyers that want the size. Killing those big cars is going ot be a big mistake, pissing off what few loyal buyers they have left in that niche. What they need to do is get down to one very well made model and ditch all the badge engineering. Make it lighter, RWD, well packaged, with an efficient V8 or turbo 6.
I’m getting the feeling there is real panic at GM right now, with the frantic poor decision making. The panic might have been a good refocusing if it wasn’t let by a bunch of bozos.
KatiePuckrik
I don’t understand this. Most people slate GM for not building smaller (ergo, more fuel efficient) cars. When GM DO start building said vehicles, we lament it! Why?
Because GM has an entire division that should be concentrating on smaller, more fuel efficient vehicles. It’s called Chevrolet. Cadillac is building what Buick or Pontiac should be selling. Instead, Cadillac should be an over-the-top luxury brand aimed squarely at the upper level Benz’, Lexus’ and even Bentleys.
You’re right, Katie, but Cadillac needs a flagship car. BMW has it in the 7-Series, MB with the S Class, and Jaguar with the XJ. Halo cars such as the XLR need not apply.
Katie,
I beg to differ. BMW and Lexus work as luxury brands because the largest cars in their line-ups are pretty much the best mass-produced cars that money can buy. When people buy an A3, they want some of that to rub off on their car, because otherwise, the A3 ist just a glorified VW Golf.
Cadillac didn’t work as a brand when they were selling FWD pieces of junk, and IMHO it certainly won’t work if they sell glossed-over Chevrolets with a bit of chrome.
I was thinking this article was crazy, then I read Katie’s post. I agree. What does the market want want, smaller cars or smaller cars?
No lamenting here, I would feel like a hypocrite.
Cadillac’s ties with its past disappeared much earlier with the 1985 change to front wheel drive.
GM’s “look-alike”, “drive-alike” syndrome devastated Cadillac. Lincoln advertisements ridiculing Cadillac and GM featured a bewildered valet unable to distinguish Cadillacs, Buicks and Oldsmobiles but having no difficulty recognizing a Lincoln Town Car.
The ads led to record Lincoln sales and so embarrassed GM and Cadillac executives Roger Smith asked Ford to discontinue them. Ford acquiesced in light of the severe downturn in Cadillac sales and the code of congeniality between Detroit-3 executives.
For some reason I have a slight irrational attachment to older GM front-drive cars and that side of me will be somewhat bummed to see the DTS go, but from a rational standpoint, we should be asking, “Why the Hell wasn’t the DTS dropped four years ago like so many other cars from it’s bloodline?”
It’s outdated and not competitive in it’s segment. GM needs a car to fill it’s place as the flagship, but it needs the bloodline of the CTS, not the DNA of GM K and E body cars that date back to the mid-sixties.
Welcome to the new world order! Hyundai’s Genesis sedan is bigger than both the CTS and the STS.
N85523:
“Why the Hell wasn’t the DTS dropped four years ago like so many other cars from it’s bloodline?”
Fleet and livery markets.
With all of GM circling the drain towards C11, or maybe C7, is anyone really surprised by this….this is how the end will come….one by one, GM management will come to realize that they do not have the cash to finance new programs….other than (what they consider to be) home runs like the Volt, or stuff so far down the pipeline (like the Camaro) that it is cheaper to go forward than to cancel…they are boxed in by lack of cash….the anaconda that is Toyota and high gas prices is choking off cash.
At least they had the prescience to take the crown off their logo.
Katie is right – demand for luxo barges is down so they are using their limited R&D budget to capitalize on the polularity of the CTS buy producing more variants. Reacting to market forces is good business.
Also, how many of you lamenting the loss of the DTS would actually buy one?
Gardiner Westbound :
Lincoln advertisements ridiculing Cadillac and GM featured a bewildered valet unable to distinguish Cadillacs, Buicks and Oldsmobiles…
I dimly recall that ad…
… Roger Smith asked Ford to discontinue them. Ford acquiesced in light of the severe downturn in Cadillac sales and the code of congeniality between Detroit-3 executives.
I don’t know what more pathetic. Roger Smith’s legacy at GM or Ford’s craven response.
I agree with Jordan. You need an STS/DTS replacement flagship car, with the best luxury, performance, and technology in your entire brand-wide lineup. The aspirational car. The best American luxury car ever made. Just the car’s existence is enough to make a marketing impact, even if you only sell 5,000 per year.
Also, how many of you lamenting the loss of the DTS would actually buy one?
I’m not I happen to own one of those POS, with the real DeVille name. What I’m lamenting is what Cadillac used to build and represent, Cadillac as a tarted up and slightly more expensive Chevy is just a waste of time, they should just make Cadillac a higher trim option at the Chevy store in that case.
Mark MacInnis is right this is mostly a case of them circling the drain, along with poor product planning and gross waste of their R&D budget with the “on” again “off” again they keep doing.
I thought Cadillac was for those rich guys who didn’t worry about gas prices.
frank you’re right, this is a sad day indeed. i don’t know if you caught the CNBC special “saving GM” but during the show a pristine 59 caddy was shown and wow, i had forgotten what a rolling masterpiece it was. i was just a kid in 59 but when one of those babies rolled by it caught everyone’s attention. how different from today when 98/100 cars look almost identical.
toxicroach, not exactly correct. You see, many upsacale buyers want luxury which means comfort which means space. Lexus,with it’s LS460 actually get’s an all around 21mpg and about 26 on the highway. My point is that luxury buyers don’t need 40mpg and they won’t get it with 115 cubic feet of interior space. However, they don’t want an overpowered thing that gets 15mpg all around. Therefore, they need the latest technology and maybe some engine choices to keep themselves wrapped in luxury but not be the biggest non green drivers in the U.S. Let’s look at can you believe huyndai making this genesis type of rear wheel drive luxury sedan with both a 6 and an 8. A sophisticated large car crammed with the latest technology to go head to head with cadillac; I don’t think so how about lexus. What caddy and lincoln are telling us is that they are out of the luxury game, they can no longer afford it. They will build upscale performance cars mostly with small cabins for two people (even though they have small rear doors and seats) but not true image pieces. Think of this, after 100 years, all limousines will be built on foreign luxury platforms because of the size issue. While this is a miniscule market, it creates the bling for people who will buy the non-stretched version and feel they are as good as the celebrity or president. All of this will be gone and maybe much more.
The DTS (and its FWD bloodline dating back to 1984) is far from the kind of traditional Cadillac that people truly appreciate. FWD vehicles are often seen as low-rent/disposable to this target market, and the Deville/DTS never had the feel of real American iron.
Two points to consider:
1. Cadillac actually died with the passing of the 1996 Fleetwood Bro-ham with the honkin’ LT-1 motor.
2. Who cares, we still have the Town Car for another 1-2 years.
If Cadillac built the Sixteen (still drop-dead gorgeous after all these years) and put the hybrid Escalade powertrain in it, you’d have an amazingly beautiful, high-tech, proud American luxury car that could demand quite a premium.
Toyota didn’t launch Lexus with the Camry based ES or RX CUV (even through these models make up the volume of sales) – they launched with the LS as a signal to the world that Lexus was to be a Tier 1 automaker. Take away the planned DT7 and Cadillac is an American Infiniti (and Lincoln an American Acura).
Up through the early 1940s Cadillac was truly exclusive. The cars were still high quality after WW2 but sales zoomed and Cadillac became mass-market. They set sales records throughout the 50s, 60s, and 70s.
These days, the whole Cadillac division should be GM’s halo division. Problem is, GM brass wouldn’t be able to stomach the drop in sales figures. Oh, wait…
I still think TTAC’s party line on Cadillac is hopeless and in conflict with its general rule of “make what people want”. Why take a brand that’s still trying to regain its prominence and alienate its new, younger customer base by dragging it into the super-competitive rarified air where it’s sure to be killed by the established competition? You’ll turn what was a mini-success into an abject failure because of your own outdated views on luxury cars. Luxury no longer means making a car bigger with more names. Near luxury and luxury have combined. You have to be able to take a 90 degree turn at 30 and not end up on your door handles. That’s fairly plain and simple. Nothing wrong with that, and certainly not anything you can effectively change. Adapt or die. We’re learning that a brand can’t survive by itself in the “near luxury” segment. Mercury, VW, the Swedes: All are floundering because they’re caught in the middle. Some cars are cheaper and just as well-equipped. Others aren’t as well-equipped, but come from more desirable brands.
And what about the gap vacated by the price bump? What is it supposed to be filled with? Buick? I don’t foresee $55,000 Lucernes selling like hotcakes. Both it AND Pontiac AND Saab are all damaged (IMO) beyond repair. Saturn can’t hang with Toyota or Honda, so they won’t fit the bill, either. Essentially, a strategy like yours will unquestionably lead to you ceding sales to the IS, A4 and 3-Series. Hardly seems like a worthwhile proposition.
P.S. I’m not saying that the DT7 is a bad idea. Just that it’s the wrong time for it. As much as the site’s staff hates it, the smaller-than-the-CTS sedan could very well be a success without sacrificing brand values. After all, “Standard of the World” only dictates being the best, not a size or price requirement. If Cadillac then proceeds to make the best small car in the world, haven’t they succeeded?
GM should license production of the Hyundai Genesis and re-skin it with more sharply creased sheetmetal. Add a caddy badge and call it a HTS (Hyundai Touring Sedan).
What Frank said!
I can only add two things;
1. Anyone who thinks Caddy should be making smaller cars doesn’t understand branding. There’s a big difference between BMW making a small car and Caddy doing it. BMW is a full range builder with one car division. GM has 8 brands. They can dedicate one to big cars, and Caddy is the one.
2. I’ve often said GM should just pare down to Chevrolet. Keeping Caddy won’t work because they don’t understand branding and they’ll just end up with Chevillacs.
A friend of mine has a fwd Seville STS, the precursor to the rwd STS. I don’t see the point of it.
For such a large car, esp. one with no driveshaft tunnel, there’s very little room inside. (I don’t see how this thing could be used for livery purposes.)
The Northstar mill has an endearing, blue-blood habit: it slurps pricey Mobil 1 synthetic oil like a businessman slurps Bloody Marys. I don’t know why my friend bothers to change his oil, he keeps adding new oil each wk. (Note that the Northstar was designed to do this.)
The engine lacks torque and it gets 18mpg on a good day. It’s also fabulously complicated.
In short, a Buick Lucerne is the same darned car for much less. Similarly, a CTS is a better value than the current STS.
IMO, the entire Seville/STS line was created to keep the Northstar factory humming along. Probably a union contract thing…keep building them even if they ain’t wanted.
The value proposition of the DTS depends on your point of view. If you view it as a flagship, like an A8L, 7-Class, S-Class, LS460, Phaeton, or XJ8, the car is a bargain.
If you compare the price point, it’s priced against cars a size class below.
Cars seem to be the one product where enthusiasts compare price points rather than class. The analogy is shopping for a business suit while cross shopping a velvet sport jacket and a track suit that are the same price.
I bet it would insult a Camry shopper to suggest looking at a Corolla the same way it would insult a DTS shopper to look at cars other than fullsize luxury sedans.
Just another way of looking at it.
Isn’t the Escalade (tarted up Chevy) the Cadillac flagship? I believe it is still the best selling Cadillac
The STS is a RWD large Cadillac on a completely separate platform. (not a tarted up Chevy) It doesn’t sell well at all.
Maybe tarting up a Chevy isn’t such a bad idea.
Personally I’d like to see a new Eldorado.
Cadillac Brand should mean Incomparable, Enviable Luxury and Quality…A Red Carpet Experience.
That doesn’t Equal BIG…and it hasn’t for a Long Time! Geez…you guys have the same Mental Block as The “Management” that has run GM of the Edge of their Flat Earth Version of the World!
davey49 I was refering to the brand image not specific models when I said tarted up Chevy’s. Their brand image and the cars they are mostly selling (CTS’) are not competing in the same class they used to be. And if they drop the larger high end models that will further lower their status. Not everyone wants a giant Escalade bling mobile, especially all those faithful old folks who buy DTS’ and STS’ year after year because it is a big comfortable Caddy like they used to get way back when. Guess they will be going to another brand to purchase from.
I am in no way trying to defend the big junk they make now, I have one of those deplorable Caddy’s, that is one of my only regrets in life. But dumping the segment without vastly improving what they make in it even dumber then selling the crap they make now. They can’t afford to lose a single customer. Oh well the quicky they get to the end the quick we start a new beginning.
Cadillac Brand should mean Incomparable, Enviable Luxury and Quality…A Red Carpet Experience.
That doesn’t Equal BIG…and it hasn’t for a Long Time! Geez…you guys have the same Mental Block as The “Management” that has run GM of the Edge of their Flat Earth Version of the World!
There’s no mental block, just the realization that there are 7 more divisions. Caddy doesn’t need to provide for all segments of the luxury market. Caddys are big ‘ol boats traditionally. There will always be a market for those, albeit a small one.
The CTS is absolutely the best Pontiac ever made. What’s wrong with Pontiac making those sales instead of Caddy?
KatiePuckrik :
I don’t understand this. Most people slate GM for not building smaller (ergo, more fuel efficient) cars. When GM DO start building said vehicles, we lament it! Why?
Katie,
Your lack of understanding is probably cultural. Cadillac is about being the ultimate luxo-barge. The luxo-barge niche is of course shrinking fast; nonetheless, if Cadillac had stuck to its heritage, it might have been able to preserve that niche. Now, I just don’t know what Cadillac can do better than anyone else, and I don’t know why anyone would buy one unless they put loyalty to country over getting the best car in class.
They need to make bigger cars, rwd, 4 door convertibles, straight eights, combine MDS with hybrid to get ~25 mpg and put down 600ft/lbs. Double the price but make it worth it. They need to reclaim their brand identity. They should be competing with Mercedes, Rolls Royce, and Bentley, not Lexus and Acura (not that they could).
The American car is dead – killed by the insane desire to copy boring European makes.
The last real Cadillac was the Fleetwood Brougham – since then has been pretty much selling Buicks as Caddy’s.
Globalization just leads to fewer and fewer choices.
When I first started noticing cars in the 1950’s I always liked Cadilacs, Lincolns, Packards, and New Yorkers. Made me think of diplomats, gangsters, crooked politicians, CEOs, pimps, and other bigger than life people.
I never liked big Fords, Chevys, Mercuries, Buicks, Olds, Edsels, and Pontiacs – they just seemed like Cadilac/Lincoln wannabes.
Sad that GM and Ford just couldn’t keep the Cadilac and Lincoln above the rif raf.
Letting Cadilac and Lincoln join the SUV and even the PU fads was a terrible insult to these marques. And now it appears that GM and Ford are very confused as to what to do with them.
All of you who want GM to bring back the Caddies of yore… they can’t. Not that they wouldn’t or shouldn’t or unwilling, they can’t. There’s is no platform in GM of N.A. available that Cadillac can use. Only the Zeta platform — and that might of been a little marginal — would have allowed for a return to the traditional Detroit Iron but that’s been cancelled … again.
Otherwise what does Caddy have? The Malibu’s underpinnings? The G8? And get Holden to make them? Good luck in making any money from that! The only other platform likely is what’s under the Lucerne and they’re already using that for the DTS. It’s getting tired. The attachment to the SUV has really started to hit home in the worst possible way.
The cupboard’s getting bare.
The Northstar mill has an endearing, blue-blood habit: it slurps pricey Mobil 1 synthetic oil like a businessman slurps Bloody Marys. I don’t know why my friend bothers to change his oil, he keeps adding new oil each week. limmin
When the seals go south, and they will, it will leak another quart.
The assumption that Cadillac must build a small car to build a fuel efficient car is a fallacy. First, what constitutes “fuel efficient” is relative. Second, the purpose of being a leader in technology is to make possible that which previously wasn’t possible.
General Motors has deliberately chosen to debase the one vehicle upon which its entire image and validity depended: the deVille. The introduced the present DTS in 2000 and, until recently, it was their sales leader. Yet, they twice did the CTS and SRX in that time frame, not to mention the XLR and the STS – while leaving the DTS untouched. Had GM been wise, they would have focused attention on the flagship. They chose not to do so.
That’s because GM isn’t a leader. It follows whatever its competitors do – and it’s usually two steps behind and a day or to late to the market. So, the stillborn DTS replacement was geared to a 7 Series market that was there five years ago, when the new Cadillac should have been there.
If there isn’t a V-8 Cadillac, there isn’t a General Motors. Cadillac cannot compete or survive as a luxury brand on the CTS or its varients alone. If GM cannot find a way to build a worthy successor to the DTS, it admits that the bank account is no longer able to withstand the blank checks with current management has been writing everyone, instead of investing in the product and the company’s future.
I think the eulogies are premature. While the future of Cadillac centers on the CTS and eventual variants, GM (or whoever is running Cadillac in a few years) will not let the DTS-type “traditional large American sedan” die. It would cost very little to “update” the current platform and upgrade the build quality to keep competitive. America, with its “super-sized’ denizens and vast distances to cover, will always find a way to keep the big car alive.
BTW, if I hadn’t watched “Saving General Motors” on CNBC last night, I wouldn’t have known that GM’s current domestic products now have competitive, high quality interiors (at least according to one Mr. Bob Lutz.)
Also, the art is a ‘48 or ‘49 60 Special.
Who cares. Caddy died on the 70’s anyway.
Wow. This thread is testimony to the branding problems at GM. Basically, Cadillac ain’t what it used to be, which is probably a good thing, but GM hasn’t been able to communicate what Cadillac IS now. The addition of the V-series CTS completes that car’s journey to a place where no quarter is given nor any taken on the world stage. It’s a tip-of-the-whip sports sedan. But is it a Cadillac? And how does it jive in the same showroom as Escalade? Escalade is another world-class product for what it is, but way off the mission of the CTS or even the STS. This thread has mainly been an argument about what a Cadillac is and who it’s buyers are. If the Best and Brightest can’t crack that nut, who can?….maybe that is GM’s biggest problem.
The art is definitely a ‘48 as stated. The ‘49 was almost identical from a 3/4 rear angle, but the grille wrapped around the front fenders above the bumper all the way to the wheel opening.
OK, trivia time is over.
Big CARS are for retirement communities and old geezers, and for today’s yuppies= not cool. If the people with money want to buy an American luxury vehicle they’ll buy an SUV, not a copy of grandpa’s luxo-barge. The last Cadillac besides the current CTS and Escalade that got any notice with the public was the one that Boss Hog rode in.
My only question is…..if they kill the DTS what model are they going to use to replace it with for the pink Mary Kay Edition car in the future ?.
If GM doesn’t come up with something for the livery market, it’s a boneheaded move. Because Ford won’t give that market up and will take it all. It will build a new RWD fleet/livery car to replace the Crown Vic/Town Car and own that market for the next 20 years.
….Dynamic 88:There’s no mental block, just the realization that there are 7 more divisions. Caddy doesn’t need to provide for all segments of the luxury market
Well…there you have it!!!!…
So ALL 8 Divisions of GM should make Luxury Cars????? Haven’t they had a tough enough time with 7 Divisions Making Chevys and ONE(Cadillac) PRETENDING that they WERE NOT Making Chevys?
Cadillac=Luxury
Luxury= The Buyer’s Definition of Luxury, First and Foremost. The Car, The Buying Experience, etc. There are Big Luxury Cars and all other sizes….(Ok..I’ll stop now)