Likewise, AMC sales started upward on a nice trajectory in 1956, peaking in numbers in 1960, and in market placement in 1961, after which the market changed and AMC tried to change to suit, but missed the target (as Geeber mentions so eloquently with good details of what transpired).

Geeber, had AMC gone ahead with the Tarpon in 1964 instead of the Marlin in 1965, the “Barracuda competitor” Tarpon fastback (based on the smaller Rambler American). The problem that the engineers had with that plan was that the then-current AMC V8 (287 & 327) weighed in at 650 pounds and was considered unsuitable for the American. (The 1967 290 & 343 V8’s were okay for smaller cars, weighing substantially less).

Instead, the engineers should have thought outside the box, shifted the engine back in the car a few inches and used the same Bendix front disc brakes that Studebaker used in the Avanti, on V8 Tarpons.

Can you imagine the look on the faces of the prospective Mustang buyers in 1964, when faced with a Rambler Tarpon with 270 horsepower and a twin-stick five speed manual?! Heh heh. Mustang didn’t get 271 horsepower as an option until 1965.

Sorry, got sidetracked. Anyway, the comparison of Honda and AMC is majorly flawed in many ways, but the point is, that markets change and can be capitalized on by companies – but said companies must also be flexible and not trap themselves into marketing corners as Rambler did (”sensible shoes – we gotcher sensible shoes here.”)

So now Honda is going against the market? Not GM or Chrysler going against the market, but Honda?

Johnson has so thoroughly wrote himself in a circle that I can’t follow this anymore…I mean, hell, it was about the US market, so a point is brought up about it, and you change it to the world market. What do you want here?

Any good company caters to its consumers. A good company should provide what customers want, and if customers change what they want, a good company should keep up with the changes. In my humble opinion I think this is a reasonable idea that most would agree with.

Honda has refused to make a V8 for almost 20 years now. Back in the late 80s, McLaren actually asked Honda to develop a V8 for them. That V8, if it had been made, would have gone into the McLaren F1 supercar. Honda repeatedly refused McLaren. In the end, a BMW engine ended up in the famous F1 supercar. This wasn’t Honda making a V8 for their own lineup, but for another company’s supercar. Honda still refused. At that time, Honda had already made racing V8 engines, yet they refused to make a high performance V8 for McLaren. That is but one example of Honda’s arrogant attitude.

If Honda feels they don’t need to make a V8, no opinions in the world will stop that decision.

My ultimate point is this, whether you agree or disagree with me:

Honda is free to make whatever decisions they choose, BUT any decisions Honda makes against the market and the demands of the market Honda does so at it’s own peril.

ANY company that chooses to go against the market does so at its own peril.

Toyota over the decades has tried quite hard to cater to market demands, and has sometimes created new segments in the market sparking new demand. The market has rewarded Toyota with tremendous success.

The market has rewarded Honda with success as well, but not to the same extent as Toyota.

“What I’m stating is not just my opinion; it is the opinion of many in the industry”

“John Horner, after buying Hondas for years, my next purchase will most definitely be a Toyota. Really though,
personal anecdotes like this matter little in this discussion”

So if I understand your argument it is the opinion that Honda needs a V8 is a more valid than those opposed to it simply because it is the opinion of many in the industry. Well in that case who the hell is running Honda? Are they unpaid volunteers, the people running Honda seem to have a differing opinion than yours. Aren’t they in the industry professionals too? So it seems that the opinion of many here opposed to Honda going into V8s is every bit as valid as yours as it is also supported by many in the Industry and more specifically by those actually running Honda.

Well regarding earlier comments about Nissan and not understanding their moves (especially in UK, Katie) you gotta remember. Who calls the shots at the so called Alliance? Of course, Renault, Nissan is nothing more than a car company with no decision making power. And right here, right now, I predict Renault will break-up Nissan as soon as it get a foothold in the American market. Even though consumres don’t even know yet, they’re already trying in NA. In Mexico, almost all new Nissans are Renault. And, except for the truck side, it’s the same thing in the US and Canada. So fans of Nissan,say farewell to your much loved machines, prepare to love with as much vigor your French rides (can’t avoid a laugh)!!

Call me crazy???
Yeah, your sso-so Nissan Versa is better known in Europe and elsewhere as the all new Renault Clio (3rd or 4th generation, lost track)!!!!!!!!!!

All do pls enjoy

These are all either niche sellers or econoboxes. The top sellers are still sedans and trucks, but for the Prius that is an anomaly unto itself.

Americans generally like to have a trunk. With a few exceptions, hatchbacks are associated with being low rent cars. You aren’t going to find too many successful $25-30,000 hatchbacks.

In some cases, a squared-off back is OK, but hatches and wagons are not terribly desirable to most buyers.

Long live hatchbacks and wagons. They simply make better use of the footprint than does the silly sharp of a “traditional” sedan. A Civic Hybrid Wagon would be killer.

For all the talk about how ‘mericans don’t buy hatchbacks or wagons, look at how well the Fit, Versa, Scion xB, Prius and Mini Cooper are doing. Some of the hottest tickets on the market right now are hatchbacks.

The Prius had the “magic” silent start – Honda’s hybrid didn’t, and that’s why the Prius outsold that and other hybrids. People who put down the extra money wanted that “press START roll away silently” effect.

That had nothing to do with it. For us, it was the greater interior space, and especially being able to fold down the back seat.

What kind of a lame slam was that supposed to be? I said that I test drove both the Camry and the Accord and liked the Accord better for several reasons. That is certainly relevant and fair game in a discussion such as this. Your pontification about how you and other smart people KNOW that Honda needs V8 engines is hardly Pulitzer Prize worthy stuff. Did you notice how GM just pulled the plug on their expensive Ultra V8 development project in light of changing market realities?

Whatever, you are entitled to your views, but you are not entitled to declare what is and is not relevant “in this discussion”.

Civic has only been on top sales-wise in the US for ONE month (last month). The Ford F-Series is still the year-to-date leader.

Also, if you actually bother to realize that the world is compromised of more countries than the US and Canada, you will find that on an annual basis, the Corolla is the best selling vehicle in the world. The Civic in terms of worldwide sales does not even come close.

NOWHERE did I say Accord owners want a V8. I DID however say that Honda/Acura owners want a V8. “Honda owners” is a broad statement that I used. No, Accord owners do not want a V8, but some Ridgeline owners have asked for the V8. What for you may ask? To do truck stuff, like hauling loads and towing. Acura owners have also asked for a V8? Why? Because it’s the luxury market.

So the MDX has won a C&D comparison recently … your point is? How exactly does that make the MDX a “perennial winner” you still have not explained.

You question why people even need V8s. Using your logic, why do people need V6 engines? I guess according to you 4 cyl engines are good enough right?

In the luxury market image and prestige matter a lot. You’re probably wondering why does Honda care right? Well if they don’t care they shouldn’t be marketing Acura as a luxury brand then. If Honda wants Acura to be a luxury brand, then they must provide what the market wants in order for Acura to be considered a luxury brand. One of those things is a V8 engine, another is having RWD cars.

A V8 engine adds prestige to a luxury brand. Most people want the V8 engine, even though most people will buy the cheaper V6 version. Perfect example is how so many people want or dream of an M3, yet most end up buying a regular 3 Series.

Let me also state that your opinion is just that; your opinion and nothing more. Your opinion does not represent the opinion of all Honda fans or all Honda owners out there.

What I’m stating is not just my opinion; it is the opinion of many in the industry, as well as the opinion of a large number of Honda/Acura fans aas well as owners.

John Horner, after buying Hondas for years, my next purchase will most definitely be a Toyota. Really though, personal anecdotes like this matter little in this discussion.

Honda is clearly focused on the vast middle market and only plays on the fringes of the high end. There is nothing wrong with that, as it simply says that Honda knows who they are and who they are trying to serve / sell to. I own stock in both Toyota and Honda, but the last two times we bought cars both were from Honda. After driving most of the available sedans, the Accord in particular impressed me as a much better driving car than the Camry. Also, on well equipped models, Honda gives you more bang for your buck … which might be why Toyota has reported slightly higher profit margins. Then again, Toyota is much bigger than Honda and by all rights that should in itself mean higher profit margins as fixed costs get spread over a much larger base at Toyota than at Honda.

So the MDX hasn’t won a C&D comparison recently? hmm…the mag I got must have been a misprint…

And full size trucks are a full blown, dominating market segment? And why should Honda care? They are doing great business in the mass market segments, the Civic is slaying everything in it’s class, including the perennial pretender that is the corolla, which has all the driving dynamics of a wet carrot.

So you wished the Accord had a V8, yet you attribute that to being widespread? Exactly what purpose would a V8 serve in the Accord? It makes no sense…So there’s a few V8’s that approach the economy of some less-efficient V6s, and whooptie-do. That still doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to drop it into a mid-size sedan that is not a sport performance platform. I mean, how many of the SRT-8s do you see out of the number of Chargers on the road? I’m not bothering to look up base numbers on that, or any of this because I honestly don’t care that much, but I’m sure it’s a fraction of the total number of Chargers. Why does Toyota never catch crap for a lack of V8 in the Camry lineup, but when it comes to Honda, the Accord gets blasted. Just because Toyota offers a V8 on the other side of the lot in the Sequoia? That’s bullshit of the highest order.

Honda is obviously not going to put out something that might gain them a fraction of a percent of market share just because pistonheads think their lineup should have a V8 Sedan. They’re aiming right down the meat of the market with their engine and car offerings, and doing quite well.

Uh, I know full well that VW and Audi are the same company, I was just listing product lines that are without a full-size pickup or hybrid that are fairly successful and have respect in the auto world that Honda, according to some people here, can’t get until they have a full lineup across every auto category, niche, and market. Luxury or not, the brands are successful despite not having entries in all categories.

Everything is not fine with Acura, but people act like it’s teetering on the edge of the brand abyss along with, say, Mercury, Chrysler, Lincoln, Buick and Saturn. It’s clearly not. And it clearly wasn’t meant to be a conquistador in the lux segment, overtaking MB, Lexus, BMW, and others. As Acura stands, it’s an affordable, upmarket alternative to Honda’s mass offerings. There are models that have just enough to distinguish it from the similar models on the Honda lot. And note that half of the models in the Acura portfolio are exclusive to Acura, and don’t have a US based Honda counterpart. It’s not just a trim level upgrade, as ford does with the Fusion/Milan/MKZ (which actually isn’t a bad vehicle…)

I find the attempts at bashing Honda somewhat humorous, but also as probably belonging to another thread. When I first mentioned Honda and Charlie Baker it was simply to illustrate the benefit of focusing on a narrowly defined conception of automotion, instead of the “all over the place” operations of the car “majors.”
Amusingly, several posters see this focus as a weakness. Maybe they should consider what a car maker that is profitable can do when the market expands again, and what it can do while it is contracting and that carmaker is adding to its bottom line – compared to carmakers selling dinosaurs nobody wants?

I pointed out off-road vehicles and roomy hybrids as just some examples of where Honda offers nothing at the moment. There are many more market segments where Honda does not compete in.

How about offering a full-size truck? Don’t even try to tell me that’s a niche market too.

Who cares about different market segments? Well it certainly seems Honda doesn’t care.

As a company that provides a product (vehicles) to consumers it’s only logical and common sense that a company would want to expand and provide more of what consumers want, and what current customers ask for.

I never mentioned Honda themselves wanted a V8, I merely said their owners have asked for a V8 for years. *I* am a former Honda owner and have patiently waited for over a decade for Honda to offer a V8. Still nothing. Just because you’ve never heard of a Honda fan wanting a V8 doesn’t mean much. The TL may have been a success in terms of sales numbers, but what about other metrics? According to Honda themselves, the TL was most often cross-shopped with Honda’s own Accord. That’s not exactly what I would call successful.

As for the MDX being a “perennial winner”, what does that even mean? That it consistently wins comparison tests? If thats what you mean, it’s wrong. If you mean it’s a best seller, that’s also incorrect as that honor goes to the Lexus RX.

By the way, who ever said a V8 means shitty gas mileage? The 4.6L V8 Lexus has gets very good mileage for a V8, in fact equal to a lot of V6 engines out there.

Further, VW and Audi are the SAME company, get a grip. VW is doing horribly in the US, so I’m not sure what you’re talking about. Audi is a luxury brand, and so is BMW so for them to offer a pickup would be silly and irrelevant.

Acura’s sales this year have been down by a large margin, and it’s unknown whether the new TSX and TL will help improve sales. Hyundai is putting a lot of effort into it’s RWD Genesis sedan and Genesis coupe offerings. Hyundai in the next few years could really hurt Acura sales if Honda doesn’t improve Acura’s offerings and position in the marketplace.

The idea that “everything is fine” with Acura is the same sort of attitude that has gotten the American automakers into the serious situation they currently are dealing with.

edgett, big difference. The C63 AMG has a completely different engine, transmission, as well as unique suspension parts and steering rack. Same thing with the M3 compared to a base 3. The M3 has many unique parts and pieces not found on a regular 3. The C63 or M3 are almost entirely different cars mechanically than their base model cousins. The Acura CSX is EXACTLY the same as a Civic mechanically, the ONLY differences are some slight exterior differences and some different options.

I suspect Honda did so well because it has a very small proportion of trucks in its lineup, maybe the smallest of the larger brands.

I’m also very glad to see people skipping the dreadful marketing gimmick CUVs for cars. Although given the forces expunging the XUVs from the market, exploding demand, much as I’m glad to see them go, schadenfreude is at a minimum.

Prius has taken the thunder recently, but the Honda Insight was actually the first hybrid car sold in the US when introduced in 1999 as a 2000 model. Toyota followed up with the Prius for the US in the Spring of 2000.

Finally, having driven them all, I greatly prefer the way a Civic drives to the numb feeling Corolla, and ditto for the Accord vs. Camry.

Don’t really want to speculate about whether this or that unit might need more work or not work, since much of that is luck of the draw, and speculation is meaningless. Just responding to why someone might buy a Cobalt over a Civic. A $5000 difference probably means a before-tax earning of $7500 (or more). If you finance the difference you need to add (before tax cost) of interest. Over a typical loan that could easily amount to $10,000 from a person’s earing, and can be a significant portion of a person’s income, especially when they have kids, college, and life to pay for.

I bought a new civic a few months ago, and I still think they’re overpriced.

And as for the Cobalt vs. Civic, I’m sure that it’s an even bet that the out of warranty used Civic will need less work over the years of warranty that a new cobalt has.

PC – how can Honda be a failure in a market segment that they have never tried to enter (trucks, and please don’t call the ridgeline a truck, because it’s not)?

Also, I’m not so sure that Honda as Acura is trying to compete for the absolute top of the lux market, nor have they ever. As for your example of BMW and Lexus having more suitable cars, it all depends what you’re looking for. I went shopping for a 330i and came home with a TSX, for a bevy of reasons, and brand image or breadth of product line were not even in the equation. I never cared whether or not their lineup or Honda’s doesn’t have any trucks or an ultra premium luxo-barge. Honda can’t be smart for sticking to what it does well and striving for consistency?

For one, a Cobalt can be had for $5000 cheaper, not counting gas. A Cobalt has a better warranty. A new cobalt can be had for less than a used out-of-warranty Cobalt. That there is a powerful argument.

Also, please note there is someone calling themselves ronin317- please don’t be confused, although I must say my own insightful remarks plainly distinguish me from the parvenu. Otherwise, I take the choice of monikers as a compliment.

Honda has outperformed Toyota in stock price over the past 6 months. Of course the question is whether this will continue. Both seem to be concentrating on hybrids.