I’d suggest blaming everything on the zoning bogeyman is counterproductive, and ignores that local zoning regulations (or lack thereof) reflect what people who live in those areas want, especially if the neighborhood is available somewhere else.

If people want urban living, I’m baffled as to why they would demand it in new suburbs, especially when they can get the real thing in cities, and even the smaller towns. At least they can around here.

Those “new urban” neighborhoods have a sterile feel. I thought the attraction of urban living centered on “authenticity” and “grittiness.”

Just two weeks ago we visited the town of Celebration, Disney’s ballyhooed “planned” urbanist town just outside of Disneyworld. Both my wife and I agree that the main street looked like…Wisteria Lane from Desperate Housewives…very staged and artificial.

M1EK: If I drive 10% of my miles on roads which get gas tax money, and you drive 90% of your miles on those types of roads; and we both pay gas taxes 100% of the time; I’m subsidizing you, not the other way around. It’s very very simple.

I’ll wait until I see a breakdown of how the revenues from the gasoline tax is spent within each state.

M1EK: And the vast majority of state gas taxes in most states go to suburban commuter roadways as well, don’t forget. I didn’t say “federal”; I meant “all” gas taxes.

They go to suburban commuter ways and rural roads…because the “vast majority” of roads are in suburban and urban areas. After all, the whole point of urban living is that everything is more compact.

Here in Pennsylvania, the “vast majority” of funds collected throughout the state from the sales tax for mass transit go to the Pittsburgh Port Authority and the Southeastern Pennsylvania Transit Authority (SEPTA). Why? Because they are the most heavily used mass transit systems in the state.

M1EK: geeber, you miss the point entirely. People use the lack of urban development as evidence that people don’t want it – when it’s actually being prohibited by zoning code, which is a lot less responsive to consumer demand than the market is.

I’m have not missed any point. Urban development is available in URBAN areas, at least here in the Northeast. If people want that option, it is available.

Once again, if this particular option is not available in Houston, then Houston residents need to demand that the elected officials of Houston’s governement change this. Although I don’t know why you used Houston as an example, as Houston is famous for NOT having a zoning code.

Your point makes no more sense than saying customers are denied the choice of a body-on-frame SUV with a V-8 because Honda doesn’t make one. If people want one, they can buy a Ford, Chevy, Toyota, etc. The choice is still available…just not from Honda.

Why should suburban developments be forced to offer urban-style development when people can get it in other areas?

To turn your argument on its head – Is Manhattan “denying” people the option to live in suburban-style developments because this type of neighborhood is not being built within the borough?

M1EK: In places where urban development still exists, it is, as you noted, wildly popular.

Suburban developments are wildly popular, too.

There is a something for virtually everyone. If Texas cities don’t offer this choice, that is a Texas problem, not, say, a Pennsylvania one. And it is not the fault of the automakers, people who drive or suburbanites.

M1EK The streetcar suburbs share more in common with Manhattan than they do with today’s exurbs. That’s why they remain so attractive today – people are wired deep down to like walkable environments.

The street car suburbs I see are full of very large, detached old single-family homes with yards. They have more in common with today’s suburbs than old-style city neighborhoods.

And my point still stands – both older suburbs and today’s suburbs use the available transportation technology to allow those who want something other than urban living to move away from the city.

At one time it was streetcars. Today it is cars.

Besides, it’s not clear to me how the internet would have developed, if spelling were a prerequisite for being opinionated.

I’ve been reading you for close to 3 decades, Mr. Yates, I’m ready to go on a fourth one.

Actually, I’ve been thinking about you this past week. Guess why? Well, Dodge is about to launch its new Challenger, and I was looking for someone I could trust to tell me about that car.

I know you will.

Here’s where you stop reading. I think there is good reason to believe the solution is closer than most people think. We are close to refining a tool (the computer) that can remove the design flaw that has been with cars since they were first built (the driver). I do not claim to know exactly how this transformation will take place but I believe it is the most likely solution to a problem that has to be solved.

Up till now I’ve not seen a good description of the true implications of the automation of cars. The idea that it means you could drink a latte and work on your laptop misses the point entirely. It will rework the structure of society as deeply as did the train, the container box, and the car.

I’ll put money on it, but your reply would be even more valuable to me.

You need to define what you mean by “urban development”. Give us an example of an urban development that you think is desirable to the market, but is prohibited by common zoning codes. I think there is a disconnect in what you are saying, and we are reading.

Without zoning codes in Houston, we get all sorts of urban development. We also get subsidies and government meddling EVEN WTHOUT zoning codes, so I am really curious.

The streetcar suburbs share more in common with Manhattan than they do with today’s exurbs. That’s why they remain so attractive today – people are wired deep down to like walkable environments.

If this is an example of the typical reverse peristalsis we can expect from Brock Yates, perhaps we now know why he is no longer bloviating at Car and Driver?

Just a thought.

Well, I can’t disagree with that. I am just saying that our political judgement (good or bad)does not seem to be a direct consequence of a good economy.

I’m not suggesting that America is a force of evil in the world, as history has shown that it has done a great deal to lift the plight of those around us. But I was merely cautioning that economic expansion sometimes is accompanied by poor political judgment and that our strong economy also did little to improve conditions in many countries where we were highly influential.

The larger point is that our economic might can represent a far better political tool than our military might. Regardless of whether one approves of the political system in China, our economies are now so interlocked that we share interests which transcend being political adversaries. China attacking the U.S. would be economic suicide and vice versa.

That is a policy set by Houston’s city government, and if Houston residents don’t like it, they need to elect local officials who will change it. I fail to see how this is the concern (or the fault of) of the automakers, people who don’t live in Houston, suburbanites, or, say, Pennsylvania residents…

That sounds like a Houston situation that needs to be addressed by Houston residents.

Here in Pennsylvania there are plenty of old-style urban neighborhoods (row homes, apartment buildings, or big older houses set relatively close together) in Philadelphia, Harrisburg, Pittsburgh and other cities.

If you like that style of living, there are plenty of neighborhoods that offer that option.

Many of them are actually quite expensive…which tells me that people want to live there.

There is no need to demand that Susquehanna Township or Silver Spring Township near Harrisburg offer that option to ensure that people have that choice. They can enjoy it in Harrisburg, or even some of the smaller satellite towns such as Steelton, Mechanicsburg and Middletown.

As far as “streetcar suburbs” – people used the technology available at that time to move out of the city. Then they used the automobile. And people can define for themselves what constitutes an enjoyable place to live.

I don’t think it’s quite right to correlate good, strong economy with all the things a powerful country does politically. You can make a link first, then do it, but I am not sure that is really fair. The Soviet Union was guilty of all the same sorts of things we did until we ran their economy into the ground. Therefore, was it really our strong economy that made us prop up some of those dictators?

At any rate, I like to remind people that the description of Democracy as being the worst form of government except for all the rest applies to the US. What other power in history has been better? Not perfect, maybe not even benevolent, but we are definitely best so far.

I grew up in Shippensburg (about 22 miles north of the Mason-Dixon Line along I-81), and now live just outside of Harrisburg. I also went to school at Temple University and lived on campus (in lovely North Philadelphia – LOL!) for two years. Tomorrow, weather permitting, I plan to attend the Philadelphia Auto Show.

Our current home was built in 1905, and was clearly placed away from the city and the steel mill in nearby Steelton. One of the the nation’s first “planned” suburban-style neighborhoods was built in Harrisburg between 1910-1920 – Bellevue Park, which is still a beautiful area today.

This area is great for the old car hobby. We have the Carlisle Events shows from April to October, the big Hershey Antique Automobile Club of America (AACA) fall meet, and the AACA Museum just outside of Hershey.

As I recall, you live in California…what surprised me during my visits to San Francisco in 2003 and Los Angeles in 2006 was the number of old cars on the road in daily service. I remember driving by a gas station in Los Angeles and seeing a 1957 Plymouth Belevedere hardtop at the pump. It was clearly unrestored and used as a daily driver. Around here those cars are all either rusted away or parked in heated garages and brought out for car show.

As far as the old suburbs – they’re called “streetcar suburbs” for a reason – they’re basically little towns originally built around streetcar lines, which makes them both more enjoyable to live in and more sustainable going forward.

And yes, traffic sucks. Which is why I’m glad I don’t have a long commute.

As to good economies doing bad things, I’m not sure that our ‘good economy’ has always done good things in our name. The deposition of Allende (a democratically elected leader) and our support of a variety of tinhorn dictators (Hussein, the Shah of Iran, Pinochet, Somoza, Suharto come to mind in no particular order) does not argue for the positive influence of good economies. On the other hand, Phil correctly notes that the U.S. economy did great things for both post-war Germany and Japan, and has helped to build both China and India into emerging economic powerhouses. As I noted, even today an approach to Iran similar to Nixon’s with China might improve our influence in the Arab states and help to stabilize that part of the world. We don’t have to like their politics to find ways to trade with them. And as far as repression goes, neither the Saudi nor the Pakistani governments provide the kinds of places I’d like to live, although we do manage to sell them lots of weapons.

In the Harrisburg region I can take you to Camp Hill, New Cumberland and Susquehanna Township, and we’ll look at all the pre-World War II houses and buildings there, too.

Geeber,

Are you located somewhere between Philadelphia and Harrisburg? I’m from Lancaster County; spent the first 22 years of my life in Pennsylvania. Hershey, Maple Grove Dragway, Nazareth, Dover, Pocono, ribbons of isolated back roads, barn cars — it’s always been a great place to enjoy and discover cars. Not to mention guitars. That was all consolation for the trauma of the 1964 Phillies when I was growing up.

You can see these patterns of early suburbanization that occurred between roughly 1880 – WWII in regional cities of Reading, Lebanon, Lancaster and even in the small towns that were well established in that region by then.

Phil

To see how far C/D has fallen, all one has to do is leaf through some old issues from the sixties and seventies. There was some gonzo automobile enthusiast journalism at its best. While it’s true they were, at times, way out in left field, well, that’s where you have to go to be on the cutting edge.

Frankly, the only thing that keeps C/D afloat nowadays is that Rodent Truck and Moto Rooter, to this day, still remain vastly inferior competitors.

Enjoyed the conversations at Hallett and South Bend during the always best week a car guy can have. Nothing like seeing your dually tagging along behind us on the open highway!

Glad to see you back in the saddle. Spread the gospel and convert these heathens to your One Lap children.

Lap Dog 1999, 2000 and 2007.

Keith

It was refreshing to see the word erudite used as a compliment. Perhaps there is hope for our country after all.

I am still wondering where you think good economies have been bad for the world?

I am thrilled that you have found a home here! I will look forward to my Monday’s and just put a calendar reminder in my phone.

Now all we need is Satch Carlson………