Comments on: Biodiesel From Pond Scum http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/ The Truth About Cars is dedicated to providing candid, unbiased automobile reviews and the latest in auto industry news. Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:19:00 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Engineer http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/comment-page-1/#comment-282712 Engineer Tue, 01 Apr 2008 16:40:43 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/#comment-282712 David, The hurdles are certainly there. But more than cellulosic [ethanol]? I don't think so. If you do algae->gasification->hydrocarbon fuels (same as we use today), wild species won't matter. You would just be interested in the fastest growers. The high lipid content algae -> biodiesel strategy is deeply flawed, hence my opposition to it. OTOH, the way to launch cellulosic [fuels] would be waste cellulose -> gasification -> liquid hydrocarbons. And to make it even more politically toxic: watch as Big Oil gets in on this... David,
The hurdles are certainly there. But more than cellulosic [ethanol]? I don’t think so. If you do algae->gasification->hydrocarbon fuels (same as we use today), wild species won’t matter. You would just be interested in the fastest growers.

The high lipid content algae -> biodiesel strategy is deeply flawed, hence my opposition to it.

OTOH, the way to launch cellulosic [fuels] would be waste cellulose -> gasification -> liquid hydrocarbons. And to make it even more politically toxic: watch as Big Oil gets in on this…

]]> By: David Holzman http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/comment-page-1/#comment-276822 David Holzman Mon, 31 Mar 2008 03:21:51 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/#comment-276822 There are still a lot of hurdles with algae, more than with cellulosic. For example, if it's in open water, how do you stop other, wild algael species from interbreeding? Closed systems are expensive. etc. There are still a lot of hurdles with algae, more than with cellulosic. For example, if it’s in open water, how do you stop other, wild algael species from interbreeding? Closed systems are expensive. etc.

]]> By: mfgreen40 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/comment-page-1/#comment-275982 mfgreen40 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 01:28:11 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/#comment-275982 I am not an expert on corn but here is my take. Ethanol is made from field corn, corn flakes are made from a different type. Farmers are going to plant which ever pays the most so the price of your cereal will go up as field corn prices are at record levels. I am not an expert on corn but here is my take. Ethanol is made from field corn, corn flakes are made from a different type. Farmers are going to plant which ever pays the most so the price of your cereal will go up as field corn prices are at record levels.

]]> By: tech98 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/comment-page-1/#comment-275842 tech98 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 23:18:16 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/#comment-275842 <i>Who is going to make the first “no shortage of pond scum in Detroit” joke?</i> Plano, Texas also has a massive supply, judging by my former employer. Who is going to make the first “no shortage of pond scum in Detroit” joke?

Plano, Texas also has a massive supply, judging by my former employer.

]]> By: Engineer http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/comment-page-1/#comment-275732 Engineer Sat, 29 Mar 2008 21:30:07 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/#comment-275732 <i>As for the water issues… part of the article discuss the move to “closed systems” which prevent evaporation. Also, most algaes thrive in salt water water, requiring no water treatment.</i> The salt water thing has potential, if done in the open ocean. Now we just need to figure out how to harvest the algae in the Dead Zone in the Gulf of Mexico. About the right size too. Have you seen the ruckus caused by the proposal to dose ferric to the open ocean to stimulate the growth of algae? The "closed system" is bogus. As stated in my first link above: <i>3. The use of closed photobioreactors <b>(>$100+/m2)</b> for such applications is totally absurd.</i> Just for reference: 15k square miles of closed photobioreactor wouls cost <b>$3.84 trillion</b> (10e12). Even for the Bush administration this is too expensive. As for the water issues… part of the article discuss the move to “closed systems” which prevent evaporation. Also, most algaes thrive in salt water water, requiring no water treatment.
The salt water thing has potential, if done in the open ocean. Now we just need to figure out how to harvest the algae in the Dead Zone in the Gulf of Mexico. About the right size too. Have you seen the ruckus caused by the proposal to dose ferric to the open ocean to stimulate the growth of algae?

The “closed system” is bogus. As stated in my first link above: 3. The use of closed photobioreactors (>$100+/m2) for such applications is totally absurd. Just for reference: 15k square miles of closed photobioreactor wouls cost $3.84 trillion (10e12). Even for the Bush administration this is too expensive.

]]> By: Ryan Knuckles http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/comment-page-1/#comment-275612 Ryan Knuckles Sat, 29 Mar 2008 20:08:56 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/#comment-275612 They squish the oil out of the algae, right? Well this is doomed to fail already. PETA will not stand for it. They are for the protection of all living things aren't they?.. or is it just the fuzzy cute living things? I wonder who they are going to have pose nude in response to this cruelty.. They squish the oil out of the algae, right? Well this is doomed to fail already. PETA will not stand for it. They are for the protection of all living things aren’t they?.. or is it just the fuzzy cute living things?

I wonder who they are going to have pose nude in response to this cruelty..

]]> By: guyincognito http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/comment-page-1/#comment-275372 guyincognito Sat, 29 Mar 2008 16:50:00 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/#comment-275372 What about extracting then refining the oil? At the very least the oil has to be pressed from the algae, then the oil needs to be filtered/refined. What about extracting then refining the oil? At the very least the oil has to be pressed from the algae, then the oil needs to be filtered/refined.

]]> By: JK43123 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/comment-page-1/#comment-275362 JK43123 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 16:37:21 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/#comment-275362 <em>Who is going to make the first “no shortage of pond scum in Detroit” joke? Me? OK then.</em> No shortage in Washington either. John Who is going to make the first “no shortage of pond scum in Detroit” joke? Me? OK then.

No shortage in Washington either.

John

]]> By: Edward Niedermeyer http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/comment-page-1/#comment-275262 Edward Niedermeyer Sat, 29 Mar 2008 15:58:18 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/#comment-275262 I don't know enough about the technology to make hard-and-fast declarative statements about the absolute pros and cons...but I figure scientists are on this. As for the water issues... part of the article discuss the move to "closed systems" which prevent evaporation. Also, most algaes thrive in salt water water, requiring no water treatment. I don’t know enough about the technology to make hard-and-fast declarative statements about the absolute pros and cons…but I figure scientists are on this. As for the water issues… part of the article discuss the move to “closed systems” which prevent evaporation. Also, most algaes thrive in salt water water, requiring no water treatment.

]]> By: Banned User http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/comment-page-1/#comment-274852 Banned User Sat, 29 Mar 2008 10:20:11 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/#comment-274852 "As for turning food into energy. The corn used to make E85 has as much to do with the genuine article as Ben Bernake has with the idea of ‘fiscal discipline’. The two ain’t even close." There is no special ethanol corn that is not related to food corn. What do you think they did with the corn before the government thought up the ethanol boondoggle? “As for turning food into energy. The corn used to make E85 has as much to do with the genuine article as Ben Bernake has with the idea of ‘fiscal discipline’. The two ain’t even close.”

There is no special ethanol corn that is not related to food corn. What do you think they did with the corn before the government thought up the ethanol boondoggle?

]]> By: chuckgoolsbee http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/comment-page-1/#comment-274732 chuckgoolsbee Sat, 29 Mar 2008 06:30:18 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/#comment-274732 jthorner, Clinton was a Republican wasn't he? After all he reduced government spending, cut the Federal Deficit, reduced the size of government, kept us out of lingering, endless foreign wars, right? That's what Republicans always promise us, right? ;) I realize the POTUS doesn't set prices but I recall paying $0.99 a gallon for my Diesel fuel under Clinton, and the price I see for Diesel today is $4.11. When people bitch and moan about things I always ask "What have YOU done to solve the problem?" So when Katrina hit and fuel prices started their steady rise above $2 a gallon I told everyone I was getting off that merry-go-round and started working towards PERSONAL energy independence. I've been tinkering and testing my way towards home brewed fuel, saying all along that once fuel hit $4.00 a gallon I'd be able to make my own. Sure enough I've finally achieved that, right on time. That is what <em>I've</em> done about energy independence - declared my own. jthorner, Clinton was a Republican wasn’t he? After all he reduced government spending, cut the Federal Deficit, reduced the size of government, kept us out of lingering, endless foreign wars, right? That’s what Republicans always promise us, right?

;)

I realize the POTUS doesn’t set prices but I recall paying $0.99 a gallon for my Diesel fuel under Clinton, and the price I see for Diesel today is $4.11.

When people bitch and moan about things I always ask “What have YOU done to solve the problem?”

So when Katrina hit and fuel prices started their steady rise above $2 a gallon I told everyone I was getting off that merry-go-round and started working towards PERSONAL energy independence. I’ve been tinkering and testing my way towards home brewed fuel, saying all along that once fuel hit $4.00 a gallon I’d be able to make my own. Sure enough I’ve finally achieved that, right on time. That is what I’ve done about energy independence – declared my own.

]]> By: jthorner http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/comment-page-1/#comment-274692 jthorner Sat, 29 Mar 2008 05:36:33 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/#comment-274692 Yep, Bill Clinton sure did a lot for American energy independence ... not. We expect that sort of thing from Republicans, but we didn't really expect if from a nominal Democrat. Yep, Bill Clinton sure did a lot for American energy independence … not. We expect that sort of thing from Republicans, but we didn’t really expect if from a nominal Democrat.

]]> By: Steven Lang http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/comment-page-1/#comment-274362 Steven Lang Sat, 29 Mar 2008 01:20:54 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/#comment-274362 Darn it, i6. I'm telling you right now the answer is painfully simple. Greenland. How many times have you shaked hands with a Greenlandian. If we deport them out of their own country, will anybody miss them? I'm calling Donald Rumsfeld right now... Darn it, i6. I’m telling you right now the answer is painfully simple.

Greenland. How many times have you shaked hands with a Greenlandian. If we deport them out of their own country, will anybody miss them?

I’m calling Donald Rumsfeld right now…

]]> By: i6 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/comment-page-1/#comment-274292 i6 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 01:04:25 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/#comment-274292 Please, can we wait for some reliable facts and well researched studies before declaring yet another 'perfect' fuel solution for the bandwagoneers to jump on and drag us all down into a whole new pit of doom? For instance what about the water usage issue, as other have mentioned? Please, can we wait for some reliable facts and well researched studies before declaring yet another ‘perfect’ fuel solution for the bandwagoneers to jump on and drag us all down into a whole new pit of doom?

For instance what about the water usage issue, as other have mentioned?

]]> By: Steven Lang http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/comment-page-1/#comment-274192 Steven Lang Sat, 29 Mar 2008 00:34:51 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/#comment-274192 Hmmmm... I hear Greenland has a lot of melting ice which would suit this energy initiative just fine. Maybe we should consider invading them next. As for turning food into energy. The corn used to make E85 has as much to do with the genuine article as Ben Bernake has with the idea of 'fiscal discipline'. The two ain't even close. Hmmmm… I hear Greenland has a lot of melting ice which would suit this energy initiative just fine. Maybe we should consider invading them next.

As for turning food into energy. The corn used to make E85 has as much to do with the genuine article as Ben Bernake has with the idea of ‘fiscal discipline’. The two ain’t even close.

]]> By: yankinwaoz http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/comment-page-1/#comment-274082 yankinwaoz Sat, 29 Mar 2008 00:07:41 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/#comment-274082 Oh... from the headline I first thought they were going to use ground up lawyers :-) Well actually.... the algae also needs water. It needs the oxygen molecule along with the carbon molecule in carbon-dioxide. The volumes of algae they need require a LOT of water. And since the oxygen in the water is used, they will need a continued source of water to replace that which is used. The energy it takes to make fresh water out of salt will negate the energy produced by this system. The bottom line is that this whole thing is a way to bank solar energy in a biomass medium. Oh… from the headline I first thought they were going to use ground up lawyers :-)

Well actually…. the algae also needs water. It needs the oxygen molecule along with the carbon molecule in carbon-dioxide.

The volumes of algae they need require a LOT of water. And since the oxygen in the water is used, they will need a continued source of water to replace that which is used. The energy it takes to make fresh water out of salt will negate the energy produced by this system.

The bottom line is that this whole thing is a way to bank solar energy in a biomass medium.

]]> By: TomAnderson http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/comment-page-1/#comment-273832 TomAnderson Fri, 28 Mar 2008 23:03:23 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/#comment-273832 Engineer: "How’s that for an idea out of left field: Big Oil making renewable fuels!" They're going to have to, eventually. Engineer: “How’s that for an idea out of left field: Big Oil making renewable fuels!”

They’re going to have to, eventually.

]]> By: Landcrusher http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/comment-page-1/#comment-273602 Landcrusher Fri, 28 Mar 2008 22:08:06 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/#comment-273602 Two points, Samir. Two points, Samir.

]]> By: limmin http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/comment-page-1/#comment-273542 limmin Fri, 28 Mar 2008 22:01:53 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/#comment-273542 Let's do this algae thing. More ethanol means 8 bucks for a box of Corn Pops. Let’s do this algae thing.
More ethanol means 8 bucks for a box of Corn Pops.

]]> By: Samir Syed http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/comment-page-1/#comment-273202 Samir Syed Fri, 28 Mar 2008 20:44:34 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/#comment-273202 Who is going to make the first "no shortage of pond scum in Detroit" joke? Me? OK then. Who is going to make the first “no shortage of pond scum in Detroit” joke? Me? OK then.

]]> By: Engineer http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/comment-page-1/#comment-273032 Engineer Fri, 28 Mar 2008 19:48:43 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/#comment-273032 This would certainly be streets ahead of the current hare-brained idea of converting FOOD into FUEL. It would also remind interested spectators that ethanol (or hydrogen, or whatever) is <b>not</b> the only biofuel, and thus <b>not</b> entitled to endless subsidies. Not that this technology is without its problems. In desert locations, as shown in the figure, evaporation easily exceeds 5 mm/d. So that 15k square miles will require <b>~51 billion gallons of water per day</b> just to prevent it from running dry. And that 15k square miles seems like an optimistic estimate, <a href="http://i-r-squared.blogspot.com/2007/05/algal-biodiesel-fact-or-fiction.html" rel="nofollow">as this knowledgeable critic explains</a>. Biodiesel is also not a particularly great technology. <a href="http://i-r-squared.blogspot.com/2007/08/biodiesels-green-diesel-nightmare.html" rel="nofollow">Green diesel eats its lunch</a>, as it produces a superior product (chemically identical to the crude-based version) and can be produced in existing refineries with relatively minor modifications, <a href="http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/12/conocophillips_.html" rel="nofollow">Conocophillips is already doing</a>. How's that for an idea out of left field: Big Oil making renewable fuels! This would certainly be streets ahead of the current hare-brained idea of converting FOOD into FUEL. It would also remind interested spectators that ethanol (or hydrogen, or whatever) is not the only biofuel, and thus not entitled to endless subsidies.

Not that this technology is without its problems. In desert locations, as shown in the figure, evaporation easily exceeds 5 mm/d. So that 15k square miles will require ~51 billion gallons of water per day just to prevent it from running dry. And that 15k square miles seems like an optimistic estimate, as this knowledgeable critic explains.

Biodiesel is also not a particularly great technology. Green diesel eats its lunch, as it produces a superior product (chemically identical to the crude-based version) and can be produced in existing refineries with relatively minor modifications, Conocophillips is already doing.

How’s that for an idea out of left field: Big Oil making renewable fuels!

]]> By: TomAnderson http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/comment-page-1/#comment-272942 TomAnderson Fri, 28 Mar 2008 19:21:50 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/biodiesel-from-pond-scum/#comment-272942 <i>Of course in the 90's as petroleum costs dipped, the Clinton Administration axed the ASP in favor of further ethanol research.</i> Gee, thanks Bill! Not. Of course in the 90’s as petroleum costs dipped, the Clinton Administration axed the ASP in favor of further ethanol research.

Gee, thanks Bill! Not.

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