Comments on: Bailout Watch 227: Michael Moore Votes Nay

By: fallout11

fallout11 — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 17:44:04 +0000

Morea, to be fair to Mr. Horner there are many military expenditures that fall outside of the published and public annual Dept. of Defense budget.
For example, for a multitude of years now supplemental funding bills has been provided to fight the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan independent of the annual submitted DOD budget. Some acquisition and modernization programs also fall outside this umbrella. Funding for military retirement, military housing, and longterm injured soldier care also come through other channels, as does (as you have noted) funding for Homeland Security and the related programs that go with it. Here at DOD we often refer to the “many colors of money” based on where and how it is allocated, and what can be done with it. Quasi-defense related departments, such as the CIA and NSA programs, and parts of NASA’s budget related to R&D, military satellite launches, etc are also not accounted for under the umbrella, and any covert or “black programs” will not be found listed either. Even the operation of cafeteria here on base is not funded directly through the DOD, but through NAF (non-appropriate funds). It’s quite a spiderweb, so Mr. Horner is closer to being accurate than some might be led to believe at first glance.

By: ra_pro

ra_pro — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 13:12:32 +0000

Back when Roger & Me came out I remember many respected film-critics dumped on it because it wasn’t objective, it wasn’t showing the good side of GM etc. I think today Roger & Me can be thought of as the GM Death Watch # 0, 20 years ahead of its time. All parties in the bailout before doing anything else should see the movie to get a bit of historical perspective on the roots of GM downfall.

I think Moore’s views closely align with TTAC as far as I can tell; US needs a viable domestic car industry, but any help needs to be conditioned on new management and new business direction for all companies.

By: Morea

Morea — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 13:03:56 +0000

John Horner : US Military … the biggest piece of our taxpayer’s dollars.

The Defense Department budget is 16.6% of the Federal budget and is the second largest slice, Social Security is the largest at 21.0%, Medicare is third at 13.3%. The Department of Homeland Security is seventh at 5%. Defense and Homeland Security together are slightly larger than Social Security. Source: http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy08/browse.html

(Just trying to keep the debate real.)

By: fallout11

fallout11 — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 12:42:18 +0000

Well said, Mr. Horner. Cognitive dissonance indeed.

Lumbergh21, the US military base I am on right now was built through a government seizure of private property for the good of the people (to fight Hitler). The aircraft that fly out of here provide the blanket of security you sleep under at night. Funny how things work.
Given Detroit’s complete failure to operate in the black, I cannot see where government direction could be worse. ‘Beggars cannot be choosers’, as I recall.

By: Facebook User

Facebook User — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 01:15:41 +0000

What he said was that the industry is critical to America and that the government should bail it out, but only by also taking control of the companies and setting them in a radically new direction.

Now that sounds like Michael Moore. Government seizure of private property for the good of the people.

By: John Horner

John Horner — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 00:47:04 +0000

A question for all the right-wing big government haters. What do you really think of the US Military? It is by far the largest organization of any kind on the planet and consumes the biggest piece of our taxpayer’s dollars. In fact, no other organization of any kind, public or private, on the planet spends as much money as the US military. Nothing else is even close.

It seems to me that most Big Government Haters are also for a Big Strong Activist Military. Doesn’t the cognitive dissonance rattle a bit? When you add up the various armed services, CIA, NSA, nuclear weapons programs, veterans benefits and such the annual budget for US military activities is about One Trillion Dollars. No private company in the world has a budget even a fraction of that size.

By: Kman

Kman — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 00:21:04 +0000

Props to psarhjinian

I was formulating something like that in my head, but your post said what I was thinking.

To re-iterate: This is why it’s important to base your views around real issues and conditions, not some sixth-grade sense of people you like or dislike.

By: Loser

Loser — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 22:07:08 +0000

Our government taking control of the auto companies will definitely send them in a radically new direction. Who could argue with the great job they are doing with our country?

By: jgh

jgh — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 22:05:43 +0000

Peace offering…

http://www.halle-berry.org

By: jgh

jgh — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 22:03:00 +0000

Sorry guys – just covering my a**. I’ll buy ya a beer at the bar and we can watch Swordfish.

By: John Horner

John Horner — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 21:47:39 +0000

I watched the entire interview with Moore, and I think you missed the point. What he said was that the industry is critical to America and that the government should bail it out, but only by also taking control of the companies and setting them in a radically new direction. Moore came down hard against giving the companies money IF THE CURRENT MANAGEMENT STAYS IN PLACE. But, he also sees the industry as critical to America’s future and wants not only a bailout, but full on receivership.

By: psarhjinian

psarhjinian — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 21:46:10 +0000

I love the cognitive dissonance this implies. He’s Michael Moore, and he made Fahrenheit 9/11 and Sicko, therefore right-wingers must hate him, but he also skewers the UAW and the D3 and doesn’t favour the bail-out, so do they like him now?

Oh, what’s a knee-jerk ideologue to do?

This is why it’s important to base your views around real issues and conditions, not some sixth-grade sense of people you like or dislike.

By: Loser

Loser — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 21:30:48 +0000

Think I’d rather hear what Paris Hilton has to say than this tool. He’s just another turd that won’t flush.

By: Kman

Kman — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 21:07:11 +0000

Hey! Where’s the pic of Halle Berry?

… Why did I click here if there’s no pic…

..Bailout no, all that…

(no Halle…)

…(trudges out of the thread…)

By: JOED

JOED — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:46:27 +0000

How does this guy get on TV? Can anyone really take him seriously? Get a haircut. Get a job & get a life.

By: Victell

Victell — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:38:11 +0000

Um, what’s wrong with Michael Moore again? I saw Roger and Me and the one about 911. Was he lying about that stuff? Should he not have done that???

By: cthill

cthill — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:32:37 +0000

A bit off topic but

I don’t think these companies, with these management people, should be given a dime.

The current management may not be the greatest on the planet but I always thought that the idea that there were better managers just lining up to take over a little absurd.

Didnt Cerberus try this when they took over Chrysler. The best that they could come up with is the management that everyone is bitching about now.

By: Stein X Leikanger

Stein X Leikanger — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:14:55 +0000

Strange. I keep entering posts, and they disappear. I must be too depressing:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/business/economy/19ports.html?_r=3&hp&oref=slogin

By: 1996MEdition

1996MEdition — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:05:48 +0000

jgholt, I will hunt you down to the end of time once my eyes heal from the gouging I just gave them. I pity the poor souls that weren’t one of the lucky first 100 viewers.

By: ferrarimanf355

ferrarimanf355 — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:01:03 +0000

Ah, but “Roger & Me” was unadulterated genius. Go rent it if you can, everything that was wrong with GM today can be seen way back then.

I saw it in a documentary class once in college, so I’m way ahead of you there.

By: Strippo

Strippo — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 19:58:32 +0000

Moore needs fodder for more “documentaries”. Duh.

By: fallout11

fallout11 — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 19:57:26 +0000

Ah, but “Roger & Me” was unadulterated genius. Go rent it if you can, everything that was wrong with GM today can be seen way back then.

By: ferrarimanf355

ferrarimanf355 — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 19:55:57 +0000

Someone should tell him that if the domestics go tits-up, then the UAW will probably be royally NFSW’d. He’d change his tune quick.

By: Stein X Leikanger

Stein X Leikanger — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 19:51:29 +0000

People aren’t buying Toyota, Mercedes or BMW – at discount. Who is going to buy GM crapola?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/business/economy/19ports.html?_r=3&hp&oref=slogin

By: TaurusGT500

TaurusGT500 — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 19:51:11 +0000

…well, that settles it.

…I’ve been on the fence with mixed emotions about this whole thing.

…but if M. Moore is against a bailout… then I guess I’ve gotta be for it!

I’m surprised he crawled out of the shallow end of the gene pool long enough to render an opinion.