Comments on: Bailout Watch 200: Debunking the Security Issue http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/bailout-watch-200-debunking-the-security-issue/ The Truth About Cars is dedicated to providing candid, unbiased automobile reviews and the latest in auto industry news. Sun, 22 Nov 2009 18:29:18 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: fallout11 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/bailout-watch-200-debunking-the-security-issue/comment-page-1/#comment-963101 fallout11 Tue, 18 Nov 2008 20:13:36 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=154691#comment-963101 That's totally incorrect, Mr. Rebbe. I'm DOD (USAF) and we really do not buy anything that Detroit also uses except perhaps cutters, reamers, and sheet metal. Even the bolts and nuts holding our military aircraft together are made in China (there are several sitting on my desk as I type this). DuPont doesn't even make the fiberglass resin we use to bond composite flight control panels. Granted, some of these companies will be hurt by the loss of business with the Detroit 2.8, but that HAS ALREADY HAPPENED, as the Detroit 2.8 has hemorrhaged market share and sales for decades now. Combined, they now make fewer than 42% of all vehicles sold in North America (see Businessweek 10/28/08). Vehicle sales are down across the board anyway, and many (like Delphi) have already either withered or died. Those that haven't also sell to Toyota/Honda/Kia/Hyundai/Nissan, and hence will simply sell more to them. A bolt is, after all, a bolt, whether it is on an F-150 or a Ridgeline. That’s totally incorrect, Mr. Rebbe. I’m DOD (USAF) and we really do not buy anything that Detroit also uses except perhaps cutters, reamers, and sheet metal. Even the bolts and nuts holding our military aircraft together are made in China (there are several sitting on my desk as I type this). DuPont doesn’t even make the fiberglass resin we use to bond composite flight control panels.
Granted, some of these companies will be hurt by the loss of business with the Detroit 2.8, but that HAS ALREADY HAPPENED, as the Detroit 2.8 has hemorrhaged market share and sales for decades now. Combined, they now make fewer than 42% of all vehicles sold in North America (see Businessweek 10/28/08). Vehicle sales are down across the board anyway, and many (like Delphi) have already either withered or died. Those that haven’t also sell to Toyota/Honda/Kia/Hyundai/Nissan, and hence will simply sell more to them. A bolt is, after all, a bolt, whether it is on an F-150 or a Ridgeline.

]]> By: Bozoer Rebbe http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/bailout-watch-200-debunking-the-security-issue/comment-page-1/#comment-960651 Bozoer Rebbe Tue, 18 Nov 2008 04:34:20 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=154691#comment-960651 <em>Doesn’t that imply that the Big 2.8 and our general industrial manufacturing base are one in the same? That’s certainly not true and I think the manufacturing base will survive the loss of the 2.8, however painful it will be.</em> No, it means that a good deal of our general industrial manufacturing base is part of the supply chain for the Detroit 3 and heavily dependent on their business. You don't think that Detroit buys a good chunk of, let's say, threaded fasteners, literally nuts and bolts, that are still made in the US? Frankly, we've already let most of our manufacturing base get hollowed out so we can buy cheap dreck at Walmart. I'm not convinced that what remains could withstand the hit. We've already had weapons projects delayed because machine tool companies have either gone out of business or been bought out by Chinese concerns. Few companies are as diversified, in terms of markets and industries served, as DuPont, but the auto industry remains its biggest market and GM is still probably its single biggest customer. Now an implosion of the Detroit 3 won't mean that DuPont will go out of business. Not many 200 year old businesses fail, but there will be layoffs in Wilmington and at other DuPont facilities, you can be sure. Doesn’t that imply that the Big 2.8 and our general industrial manufacturing base are one in the same? That’s certainly not true and I think the manufacturing base will survive the loss of the 2.8, however painful it will be.

No, it means that a good deal of our general industrial manufacturing base is part of the supply chain for the Detroit 3 and heavily dependent on their business. You don’t think that Detroit buys a good chunk of, let’s say, threaded fasteners, literally nuts and bolts, that are still made in the US? Frankly, we’ve already let most of our manufacturing base get hollowed out so we can buy cheap dreck at Walmart. I’m not convinced that what remains could withstand the hit.

We’ve already had weapons projects delayed because machine tool companies have either gone out of business or been bought out by Chinese concerns.

Few companies are as diversified, in terms of markets and industries served, as DuPont, but the auto industry remains its biggest market and GM is still probably its single biggest customer. Now an implosion of the Detroit 3 won’t mean that DuPont will go out of business. Not many 200 year old businesses fail, but there will be layoffs in Wilmington and at other DuPont facilities, you can be sure.

]]> By: arki30 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/bailout-watch-200-debunking-the-security-issue/comment-page-1/#comment-958922 arki30 Mon, 17 Nov 2008 19:30:35 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=154691#comment-958922 "...but I’d like someone to explain how you can have a dedicated defense industry without a general industrial manufacturing base." Doesn't that imply that the Big 2.8 and our general industrial manufacturing base are one in the same? That's certainly not true and I think the manufacturing base will survive the loss of the 2.8, however painful it will be. “…but I’d like someone to explain how you can have a dedicated defense industry without a general industrial manufacturing base.”

Doesn’t that imply that the Big 2.8 and our general industrial manufacturing base are one in the same? That’s certainly not true and I think the manufacturing base will survive the loss of the 2.8, however painful it will be.

]]> By: Bozoer Rebbe http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/bailout-watch-200-debunking-the-security-issue/comment-page-1/#comment-958582 Bozoer Rebbe Mon, 17 Nov 2008 18:05:00 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=154691#comment-958582 Nobody is expecting F-22 Raptors to roll off the assembly line at the Dearborn Truck Plant like F-150 pickups but I'd like someone to explain how you can have a dedicated defense industry without a general industrial manufacturing base. <em>“the serious hardware — fighter planes, armored vehicles, ships and missiles — is made by companies with few, if any, direct links to the auto industry.”</em> Few direct links but they share parts of their supply chains. If you don't have machine tools, you can't build fighter planes and I'm not sure that the defense industry by itself is large enough to support a machine tool industry or other supply chain businesses it needs. Remember, Barney Franks wants to cut defense spending by 25%. Nobody is expecting F-22 Raptors to roll off the assembly line at the Dearborn Truck Plant like F-150 pickups but I’d like someone to explain how you can have a dedicated defense industry without a general industrial manufacturing base.

“the serious hardware — fighter planes, armored vehicles, ships and missiles — is made by companies with few, if any, direct links to the auto industry.”

Few direct links but they share parts of their supply chains. If you don’t have machine tools, you can’t build fighter planes and I’m not sure that the defense industry by itself is large enough to support a machine tool industry or other supply chain businesses it needs. Remember, Barney Franks wants to cut defense spending by 25%.

]]> By: Sherman Lin http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/bailout-watch-200-debunking-the-security-issue/comment-page-1/#comment-957681 Sherman Lin Mon, 17 Nov 2008 15:31:10 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=154691#comment-957681 Even if auto factories were to be needed in any future conflict, an examination of history also debunks the claims of security issues by bailout supporters. In times of actual war, where the factories are located and not which country owns them determines their actual use. GM and Ford factories in Germany produced full bore for the Third Reich, just as JVC then a subsidiary of RCA produced for the Empire of Japan. If needed the factories of Toyota and Honda would be utilized the same way in any future conflict. Where the factory is located and the nationality of the worker bees determines who benefits from the output in wartime. Simply examine the actual historical record. Even if auto factories were to be needed in any future conflict, an examination of history also debunks the claims of security issues by bailout supporters. In times of actual war, where the factories are located and not which country owns them determines their actual use. GM and Ford factories in Germany produced full bore for the Third Reich, just as JVC then a subsidiary of RCA produced for the Empire of Japan. If needed the factories of Toyota and Honda would be utilized the same way in any future conflict. Where the factory is located and the nationality of the worker bees determines who benefits from the output in wartime. Simply examine the actual historical record.

]]> By: fallout11 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/bailout-watch-200-debunking-the-security-issue/comment-page-1/#comment-957521 fallout11 Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:45:11 +0000 http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=154691#comment-957521 Well said. Well said.

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