Perhaps you could take a couple breaths, and tell us what you mean in a way we can understand you?

I’ve got one of those closed minds, the kind that hangs onto facts. I was brain washed by two years of physics courses while getting my degree in Chemical Engineering. Not to mention more sophisticated examinations of chemical reactions, reactor design, physical chemistry, and all the hands on lab work that demonstrated both the basic conservation of mass and energy laws as well as more esoteric resulting theories. It takes more energy to produce the hydrogen than could ever be made burning it. This is a basic law of physics. I hope none of the truly open minds reading this forum follow your advice and waste their money while potentially damaging their car. At least the magnets on the fuel line aren’t going to do any damage, this hair brained scheme could.

Just say’n.

Step 1 – lightweight wheels: reduce unsprung mass for better acceleration, handling, braking, and fuel economy

Step 2 – lighter exhaust components free up power and reduce weight

Step 3 – lower the car to improve aerodynamics

Step 4 – rear lip spoiler and front chin spoiler improve the coefficient of drag – make sure its the right kind that smooths the airflow, rather than increases downforce (which will reduce your fuel economy)

Step 5 – reflash the ECU, or tune the ECU yourself, particularly at part throttle cruise you can get some serious MPG back by leaning it out a bit (just keep an eye on exhaust gas temps and avoid going too lean) – you’ll also get more power if you tune properly throughout the powerband, especially if you play with ignition

Well here’s something that works! Trick the motor to run leaner, and your MPG will improve if only a little bit. No need to install the HHO system it’s superfluous.

That’s a nice approach, but not really what I was saying at all. Are you astroturfing a more significant way to reduce fuel use via an EFIE alone? :) Just add a pulsed battery voltage with a potentiometer to regulate, there you go. Why am I doing your work for you? :)

I don’t know if you just got here ‘Caddy_Hearse but you sure sound like one of those “astroturfers”…

Yes I just got here, and perhaps the mention of the COSM would make it look otherwise, but I am not some ‘astroturfer’ or whatever that is. (I had to go look it up on Wiki). I am a software programmer and artist. That means my mind is more open than others, but not so open just any vegetable oil from the internet can be poured in, without first throwing it into a centrifuge.

I was just wanting to give out something more substantial than “it doesn’t work” or “It does”. As to working or not, it depends on the volumes you are putting out, and if it’s less than 1.5 liter per minute, it’s not going to help much at all, true, but if you work to verify you get that much, then by using more cells, now you are replacing enough of the gas to make a dent, just for a few amps, not some giant load like that Baileycar link says. The Meyer PWM approach is the ticket it would seem. Note: he’s dead, so I can’t really be an agent for change for his systems.

“Astroturfing”, I really need to get out more. Never have heard that one. :) Were I so important.

With regards to the tornado, I found one in a ‘94 Miata off a friend. I didn’t discover it for a few months, until I did a timing belt change. Taking it out made no difference in average MPG, which I measured across multiple tanks using miles/gallon.

I think some of the “improvement” in MPG comes from people eyeballing the gas gauge, or not using average MPG figures and instead measuring only once or twice before and after.

As for hydrogen…

I ran into someone who swore by HHO (though he didn’t have one in any of his cars) because he’d seen the system (he does not have it himself) in his customer’s cars. Because they didn’t try to sell kits and cheap or free instructions are on the internet, he considered the product legitimate. When presented with arguments using formulas from a physics book, the response was “you can’t always trust books.” I offered to two weekends off and put up gas money to test it, before and after installation by driving around a fixed loop. No response.

In other news, it looks like ABG has a few words about mythbuster’s hydrogen test. http://tinyurl.com/4an4xv
(please don’t ban me!)

It doesn’t “make” anything to have FDA approval or SAE peer review, it is just a reputable established source of information which is useful in an age where anyone can claim anything on a message board with no evidence or facts to back it up.

It IS the laws of physics and ICE development after, oh say 100 years or so, that back the claim.

OK so there is no easy proof of what you say is so obvious. Can you at least explain how adding a tiny amount of Hydrogen makes the gasoline combustion process “more efficient?”

Grad paper after Grad paper make the claim that an ICE can use hydrogen as a substitute fuel for nearly a net 0 exhaust emissions.

First of all the argument is about adding a small amount of hydrogen and oxygen to the gasoline combustion process. We are not talking about running a motor on hydrogen. That is creatinly a viable option, but has nothing to do with how an add-on HHO system works.

Again if it’s so obvious are there any websites explaining this or are any of these Grad papers available anywhere that you know?

Anyone refuting this industry wide information just likes to argue.

You claim to know all this stuff, so how about you talk some physics and everyone can learn instead of formulating opponent destroying tactical arguments? Better yet, If you know basic physics why are we even arguing over a system that clearly takes more power to “make” the hydrogen than it could ever hope to get back??

@1966_Caddy_Hearse: So you have to use a MAP adjuster, or an O2 adjuster

Well here’s something that works! Trick the motor to run leaner, and your MPG will improve if only a little bit. No need to install the HHO system it’s superfluous.

I don’t know if you just got here ‘Caddy_Hearse but you sure sound like one of those “astroturfers”…

Regular electrolysis of water in these applications will take anywhere from 5 to 30 amps and generate a -lot- of heat. It requires a catalyst or electrolyte of some type (salt, potassium hydroxide, sodium hydroxide or baking soda, etc), and that is why it is like a short, but if it is drawing more than 20 amps, somebody mixed up too much into the water. Stainless 316 electrodes will last the longest, but other stainless electrodes will work. You need distilled water to prevent mass gunk build up, and you’ll still get some if using baking soda.

The best way is to use PWM (Pulse Width Modulated) voltage and then you need no catalyst at all, and you can use tap water. In this situation you get the same or more hydrogen at only about an amp or less and practically no heat. You have to use a tuned set of electrodes, but it works and there’s no doubt about that. (it’s supposed to be impossible…but it works…so..) Stanley Meyer was onto something indeed.

You can get the airflow and other sensor modules at places like http://www.madcosm.com/

One thing seems true…if you buy one of these cheapie systems using the bell jars (you’d need 2 for any benefit I think)…if you do not also tend to the O2 sensor or MAP sensor situation, it’s not worth your time. From what I have read a properly tuned H system in this genre can enhance your mileage anywhere from 7 to 25 percent. I’m still building mine, so I can’t say what it will do for sure, if anything, and I have to get the O2 computer still. Worth the $200 or so it will take to run the experiment.

It IS the laws of physics and ICE development after, oh say 100 years or so, that back the claim.

Grad paper after Grad paper make the claim that an ICE can use hydrogen as a substitute fuel for nearly a net 0 exhaust emissions. Anyone refuting this industry wide information just likes to argue.

SAE does have many papers from Toyo Kogyo on the suitability of Hydrogen in Wankel (rotary) engines since the ’70’s. It works. Look it up.

So from this , you can use it for substituting petroleum as a fuel. That would mean less petroleum per mile and that would equate to an increase of mileage per gallon.

As you can use propane injection in any ICE to boost the “MPG” there also.

Just like substituting veggie oil instead of diesel fuel increases the mileage of “diesel fuel per mile.”

Once again, pure opinion and anecdotal evidence backed by “The Internet.”

No, it’s not “injected.” It’s more of a passive introduction. No pressurized system.

Can you substantiate that claim? Is there an SAE paper on this or something? Just stating something as if it is fact in an authoritative manner is not going to make it true. The burden of proof is certainly on the idea that challenges basic Physics. So lets have it!

IMO the claim that Hydrogen “improves combustion” is merely the secondary claim that the HHO hucksters hide behind once it is painfully obvious that the Hydrogen in the Brown’s Gas generated by the HHO systems is not enough to offset any amount of gasoline power, much less the power it required to do the electrolysis in the first place! That somehow this small amount of Hydrogen and Oxygen magically improves gasoline combustion efficiency is shaky at best.

Yeah, this is a good one.

I would also assume that if the oxygen is leaking out at some incredible rate, then the air in the tire would, over time and many refils, become a much purer concentration of nitrogen than normal air contains (~80% I think unless global warming affects that too).

As far as those kits are concerned, I’m amazed that they don’t bottle up the oxygen as well. Wouldn’t running pure oxygen and pure hydrogen into the engine give you the boost of the space shuttle? ha ha ha.

The one thing I read that has not been mentioned here is that you need to lean out your mixture to achieve the mpg increase. Most of the kits recommended doing a mod to the oxygen sensor. This worries me as Mr Jefferson related above it could cause engine damage. I know that the fuel is used to cool the valves etc. So I would be worried about burning valves from a lean condition. I suppose you could supplement the cooling effect with water injection but at eight pounds a gallon where does that become less efficient?

Also does anyone know how many HP it takes to run an alternator under a nominal load vs. full load? that would seem to be a big concern in this deal.

I have K&N filters on all my cars and I installed an aftermarket exhaust on my Suburban between the two I should have seen close to 5 mpg increase according to their claims. I did not notice any increase in MPG but it sure sounds nice…

56 plugs per engine, but 112 plugs per C-119.

There was a B-25 at our local airport this weekend and we were trying to guess the cash required for a new set of plugs…

http://www.sentientbeing.co.za/post/241/scamming-reality

Leaving aside the technical/physics of this nonsense, anyone that spends as much time astroturfing as these cloudes has to be scamming. A legitimate product does not require this level of forum spam/fake domains/fake reviews/fake anti-scam sites.

~R

Yes, H2 does improve combustion efficiency by adding an different, lighter hydrocarbon. There is a tipping point.

No, it’s not “injected.” It’s more of a passive introduction. No pressurized system.

Water does cool the intake and therefore creates a more dense air charge resulting in more BMEP.

Aftermarket “Cold Air Kits” are usually worse than production units, but, offer a great placebo effect that money can’t buy for the consumer.

N2 in the tires. What a crock. The fallacy that it leaks at a much slower rate than regular air,is bogus. Air , after all is 86% nitrogen, so how much slower is it really going to be? At 4x more cost or more.

Anymore Myth Busting to be done?

http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/

Even if water electrolysis was a 100% efficient process, the energy you’d get back from combustion of the hydrogen would be equal to the energy used to generate the hydrogen in the first place.

Regardless of whether he sees any benefit at least he’s actively experimenting instead of armchair quarterbacking.