Ever since Porsche debuted the Cayenne, Porschephiles have heatedly debated where it fits into Porsche’s branding strategy—or if it should even exist. When SPEEDtv.com Editor in Chief Tom Jensen reviewed the Porsche Cayenne Turbo, he declared that the four-wheel-drive trucklet is a “true Porsche.” He states that “the Cayenne Turbo is absolutely faithful to Porsche’s core values of performance, quality and competency” and is therefore worthy of Porsche-hood. Despite its ungainly exterior, early reviews of the heavyweight four-door Porsche Panamera make the same claim. (Autoblog: “Not only is it painstakingly engineered and truly enjoyable to drive… most importantly, the all-new Panamera has earned the right to wear the Porsche badge.”) So what say you? What makes a Porsche a Porsche? With the “independent” sports car maker on the brink of losing its independence, has the fabled Porsche brand finally lost the plot?
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I agree that Porsche has lost the plot. I still remember the t-shirt that read “To Hell with LeMans – let’s build trucks” that the faithful wore in protest of the Cayenne a few years ago.
A sedan now? Come on. People are buying the badge here, not the performance. I like minivans – how long until the VW minivan (or should I say Chrysler) is rebadged as a Porsche?
A friend of mine commented recently that the C6 Vette is the same size as the 911. I think he was trying to say that the Vette has shrunk to more sporty proportions. I made the comment that in reality, the 911 has gotten bigger, fatter, and softer.
Porsche is chasing profits now, instead of focusing on building world standard sports cars.
Three words: Porsche Westfalia Camper.
It. Could. Work.
My one drive of a Cayenne was totally underwhelming. The thing handled like jam.
For more I’d refer people to Capt. MIke’s recent review of the Cayman PDQ, or whatever.
Porsche used to be to sports cars what Rolex is to watches: The single minded focus on perfection through years of iterative improvements. Unfortunately along the way they got confused and thought they were an upmarket BMW which tries to be a driver focused full ranger car maker.
Maybe they did it because they were worried that their loyal consumers were getting old and no longer interested in two-seater sports cars. So instead of finding a way recruit a new generation of Porschephiles, they are chasing the existing generation to the grave. Coming soon – the Porsche Buick.
I have absolutely no problem with the Porsche Panamera.
Also, why does this article change when I click on it?
Bloat does not a Porsche make.
Let’s look historically. The core models will forever be the 356 and 911, and any evolution from that concept. Models that differs too much, will have a clear identity problem.
914 = Not enough Porsche, either technically, designwise or in execution.
924 = Not enough Porsche, criticized for its “Audi” engine and VW parts bin. Not even built by Porsche.
928 = Engine in the wrong place, too little brand identity. Extending upwards into gentlemen’s expresses, dilution of core value.
944 = Enough Porsche. Finally. Porsche engine, built in Porsche factory.
Boxster = Too little differentiation from the 911 concept, why share identical front end, for half the price? Dilutes the 911 more than the Boxster, and the Boxster will forever be the 911 for people who can’t afford a “real” Porsche.
Cayenne = The reasons are too obvious to state.
Panamera = It’s the 928 story all over again, only this time even longer, bloatier and heavier. Panamera is truly an abomination.
So, where does this leaves us?
Porsche is and forevever will be the company that launched two of the most coveted, successful, and most above all, reliable in an every day manner sports cars in history, the 356 and 911. Stick to that concept, because extending the concept will destroy it. there are other brands to cater for other needs.
I would even go so far as to say that Porsche could even extend downwards into VW territory, with a Porsche version of the Audi TT/VW Sciroxxo chassis, in a true 356 Speedster fashion, above the TT in price, but below the Boxster. Everything else just isn’t a real Porsche
Is the Cadillac Escalade a true Cadillac? One could argue it is the only true Cadillac left.
There comes a point where the brand’s original MO is no longer enough to sustain it, and the brand needs to branch out to survive. Should the brand let itself die as a pure martyr, or expand to live?
From my experience I guess air cooled rear engine must be the true Porsche.
I had a 928S for about 5 years back in the 80’s. It was the most effortless car I have ever owned. Fast and completely neutral in the twisties. Fit and finish outstanding. Arguably the most technically advanced car of the era.
But to the Porsche faithful of the era it was not a “true porsche” and it died an untimely death (like some 911 owners who got in over their heads).
When we are all driving EV’s the 911-EV will be an improvement since with the batteries in the front it will approach 50/50 weight distribution.
No, I wouldn’t consider the Escalade a true Cadillac. Cadillac doesn’t make trucks. Period. It’s as simple as that. And Porsche shouldn’t have built trucks either.
If you see someone driving a Porsche and do not automatically go into suffering-from-Tourettes like fits of saying “douchebag, douchebag, douchebag” then it is not a true Porsche.
That is why cars like the 914 have historically failed to be true Porsches.
911: Yes, only a douchebag would spend $70K plus for a car with its engine in the worst possible location. In a design that Porsche stole from a 1930s Czech car.
Cayenne: Yes, the most “Porsche” Porsche yet, only a true douchebag would spend a premium for an uglier Touareg with a crappier interior.
Panamera: A non-douchebag might buy one. Possibly not a Porsche.
Cayman/Boxster: No, as the most affordable, most reliable mid engine car on the market, with an actually attractive design, particularly for the Cayman, it is quite likely that the driver of one of these is not a douchebag. Not a real Porsche.
Cayman/Boxster: Fail, as the most affordable, most reliable mid engine car on the market, with an actually attractive design, particularly for the Cayman, it is quite likely that the driver of one of these is not a douchebag. Not a real Porsche.
–
Amen.
Why do people insist that a company can’t change and still be the same company?
Would it make them happy if Porsche told everyone that they had replaced the ‘o’ in their name with a 0 (zero) ? That way they aren’t the same, and the same old expectations no longer need apply?
IMHO True Porsche requires the following:
*RWD (maybe AWD)
* Rear Engine
* Must be a car
This:
http://www.141.com/vir2004/Porsche%20tractor.JPG
Paul,
I lust after the tractor, but would my farming buddies would think me a douchebag if I owned a Porsche tractor?
I had a 944 turbo and a 911 back in the late 1980’s and didn’t think that the 928 was a “real Porsche”.
Now I am kinda lusting after them.
I doubt that will change with the truck and sedan.
But in defense of the SUV, my wife wants something bigger then her A4 to haul the kid(s)and it has to be AWD and a manual trans, under $35k new or used. The Porsche SUV is one of the few that will work for her.
Well. As a Douchbag with Tourettes, I can say that any Porsche offering is a “real” Porsche if that’s what the badge/emblem says.
Porsche is just a name that the manufacture sticks on to its cars.
Again, it’s just a car. A piece of metal, rubber and plastic etc…
If “Porsche-ness” were defined by its having its engine behind the real axle, then Porsche would ultimately become like Morgan.
To me, The qualities that define the marque are: (1) Superb handling combined with tactile driver involvement, & (2) Reliability that arises from robust engineering design.
I own & regularly drive a current model Cayenne Turbo as well as 3 911s – a 996 Turbo, 997 GT3 & a 997 Ruf. But I intend to replace the Cayenne in a couple of years with . . . a Audi R8 V10.
Driving a very quick, huge SUV’s nice but the experience does get old after awhile. The top-powered 911s are a delight to drive & sufficiently different from one another as to provide a satisfying spread of driving experience.
So why the planned switch to the Audi? Because at this point, the inherent problems incurred with a rear-mounted engine have become increasingly exposed by well-developed competing products based on fundamentally sound design.
It’s time for Porsche to apply their brilliant chassis fine tuning to a mid-engined/rear-drive platform. When they decide to develop a Cayman (or whatever else they name the thing) weighing no more than 1,400 kg. but with about 500 PS/700 Nm, that’s when I’ll be back.
For me, I think air-cooled, rear engine sports car. I’ve owned 2, one the unloved 914, and my other, the favorite was the 912. Even though it had the smaller engine, it was so much fun to throw through the turns.
I do like Dan Neil’s review of the Panamera where he says, “The 2010 Panamera sedan is filled with luxury and speed. But compared with a 911, this thing handles like well-upholstered field artillery.”
To me, that is not a Porsche.
I quite enjoyed Dan Neil’s take on the Panamera.
The materials are exquisite, the seats are fantastic, the four-seat interior design is the best on the market and the whole thing is so summarily pleasurable it makes me want to empty out the nearest FDIC-insured facility with a tommy gun, a la John Dillinger.
The damned car is magnificent. But it is not made of the same charmed isotopes as the 911, and therefore not a Porsche. Sorry.
Well, I’m not so ready to write it off. And I find myself wishing that they did make a new 928 on this platform. To hell with the air-cooled boxer purists; I have a feeling that the product people at Porsche know how to manage the brand more than they do. What does really risk diluting the brand is all of these financial shenanigans. I’m willing to stomach a Porsche that makes a SUV or a sedan far more than a Porsche that goes broke trying to buy VW.
This is a simple case of selling out a brand name for a quick profit, right?
The whole brand purist thing leaves me cold. A Porsche is whatever the company chooses to sell. If people buy them and like them, the product is a success. If not, then not.
The Boxster and Cayenne together probably saved Porsche from oblivion. So what if some people hate them?
Porsche needs a seriously upscale, fast sedan to play in a wider market. The Maserati Quattroporte is doing just fine for itself even though it has, gasp, four doors.
BTW, there are good reasons why every other company has given up on rear engined cars. It is a suboptimal architecture, and getting around those failing with electronics and other tricks isn’t ideal.
Let’s turn the question around: does the Panamera deserve to be built, as designed by Porsche engineers? If the answer is “yes” (as early reviews would suggest), would putting another brand on the car really change anything?
So far, the arguments that have been made all revolve around the idea that the Porsche brand is best when it’s used to sell only one particular kind of product, just as the Apple brand is best when it’s only used to sell computers and not music players or phones. I’m sorry, but I don’t see the argument that the brand must be that narrow. As long as Porsche keeps building focused sports cars, their brand will stand for that. Dilution occurs when the historical core of the brand is weakened, but I think the continued success of the Boxster, Cayman, and 911 speaks otherwise in this case.
Pavlov’s porschefiles make Porsches Porsches.
The whole brand purist thing leaves me cold. A Porsche is whatever the company chooses to sell.
It works for Pontiac.
Porsche is the only modern German car that maintains any form of reliability after the waranty expires. Audi, Benz, BMW, and especially Volkswagen are engineered to be a beautiful driving machine for 3 to 4 years tops, then they descend into a abyss of mechanical and electrical nightmares. Porsche’s are briliantly engineered to work. Every. Time. If it is designed by Porsche, built by Porsche, and called a Porsche, it is a real Porsche. A 911 is the purest expression of a Porsche to me. The Cayman/Boxster looses a little because the assembly is outsourced. The Cayenne is , at best, a joint-venture project with VW, so I think it is very comprimised as a Porsche. I fear for the brand if VW gains control.
Maybe Porsche summed it up best in a long gone ad campaign with the slogan “A Porsche isn’t for everyone”. Porsche’s were always meant to demand as much from the driver as the driver demanded from the car and not be a grocery getter for footballers, celebrities and wives of well heeled suburbanites. The Cayenne, by any measure, does not meet that benchmark. Let’s hope the Panamera doesn’t turn out to be a Bentley alternative for those who prefer the look of the Porsche badge.
Wasn’t there a huge fuss like this when Porsche made the 996 water-cooled, and again when the Boxster came out?
I’d probably say great performance with a minimum of compromise, is what Porsche is aiming for. Whether it be a rear engined car, mid engined roadster or a 4000lb SUV.
A Cayenne S is the only Porsche I’ve driven and I enjoyed it. I thought, “It would be great if they made this a sedan.”
coatejo :
June 28th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Porsche is the only modern German car that maintains any form of reliability after the waranty expires.
Boxsters have IMS failures, possibly up to 1 in 3 cars. BMW isn’t too bad these days, though.
This article (and many of the comments) are full of the same enthusiast conceit that taints so many of the branding posts here. You all may have your own ideas about what makes a Porsche, but in the end, none of them matter. What matters is what the prospective Porsche buyer thinks. If all they care about is 1) does it look good? 2) is it fast? optional 3) does it handle?, then all of this is an academic thought exercise. Some people here need to get out business class and into reality.
“Porsche’s were always meant to demand as much from the driver as the driver demanded from the car and not be a grocery getter for footballers, celebrities and wives of well heeled suburbanites.”
The company’s sales would be cut by more than half should Porsche’s customer base ever exclude those undesirables.
Unlike Porsche’s main rivals – Ferrari, Aston, Lamborghini, and the like – there is no huge mass-market automaker paying the bills with volume-seller Everydaymobiles.
Therefore, we might bag on the Panamera and Cayenne (and rightly – they’re both butt-ugly), but frankly, the rationale for making them for an independent automaker like Porsche is simple: every one sold makes it possible for them to keep on improving the REAL Porsches: 911s, Caymans and Boxsters.
Given the excellence of the core Porsche line, I can live with a Cayenne or two.
Strippo Quoted me thus:
“The whole brand purist thing leaves me cold. A Porsche is whatever the company chooses to sell.
It works for Pontiac.”
But, you conveniently left out the full statement I made: “The whole brand purist thing leaves me cold. A Porsche is whatever the company chooses to sell. If people buy them and like them, the product is a success. If not, then not.”
Pontiac sold many different kinds of products over the decades in which it was a successful brand. The problem since the 70s has been that Pontiac didn’t build nearly enough vehicles that people bought and liked. Pontiac’s failure isn’t a case of a brand building products for the wrong segments, it is a case of building marginal products.
A bad fast luxury sedan would do Porsche harm, but a great fast luxury sedan will not hurt Porsche at all.
Oddly enough, Corvette fans are not bothered by Chevrolet also building very pedestrian cars and trucks.
I don’t know if it should be considered a “True Porsche”, but Porsche better hope that its badge sells things because I think the Panamera is one of the ugliest cars out there.
The thing looks like a 911 limo built by a custom-coach works from 1977. The Bentley, Mercedes, BMW, and Maserati competiton are much more attractive.
Porsche is about fast vehicles.
Is the 911 fast? Yes.
Is the Boxter fast? Yes.
Is the Cayman fast? Yes.
Is the Cayenne fast? Yes.
Is the Panamera fast? Yes.
The idea that there must be a true Porsche reeks of snobbery.
John Horner:
“Porsche’s were always meant to demand as much from the driver as the driver demanded from the car and not be a grocery getter for footballers, celebrities and wives of well heeled suburbanites.”
The company’s sales would be cut by more than half should Porsche’s customer base ever exclude those undesirables.
Very true and symptomatic of Porsche’s attempt to (over)extend their brand and venture into the world of full line car makers. I hope that works out for them but currently they’re in a mess and looking for cash in the middle east.
quasimondo:
The Cayenne V6 makes it to 60 in around 8 seconds – the same tame as many mid size 4 cylinder FWD sedans. Who ever thought that a slow and obese Porsche was a good idea?
I spent Friday driving a tuned 997 GT2 that, in my hands, ran from 0-170 (that’s One. Seven. Zero) in 14.5 seconds and ran down American Iron cars on a road course.
I don’t give a shit what else they make. Keep making stuff like that.
This thing will sell like hotcakes.
Nope, I think Porsche has lost the way. All of their range today are hideously complex. This complexity has added weight that detracts from the Porsche “feel.” And detracts from reliability which used to be their strong suit. And why does an “engineering company” farm out the engineering of something as important as the Boxster/911 intermediate shafts? In case you hadn’t heard, they are like grenades.
Porsche’s management need to reacquaint themselves with the ethos that the founder held: “the best, and as light as possible.”
(with apologies to Colin Chapman)
But, you conveniently left out the full statement I made: “The whole brand purist thing leaves me cold. A Porsche is whatever the company chooses to sell. If people buy them and like them, the product is a success. If not, then not.”
Think of the marketing of each product as a battle, and the protection of the brand as the war. Just because you’re right doesn’t mean you’re not wrong. Or something.
The best models in Porsche’s lineup are the Cayman and Boxster. In the Porsche tradition, they are fast and handle extremely well. In my opinion, they have replaced the 911 as sports cars.
The 911 has become a GT rather than a sports car. That is not to say that they are no longer desirable. A normally aspirated, all wheel drive coupe is a fantastic tool for covering long distances at high speed. Therefore, I believe it still qualifies as a “real” Porsche.
A friend of mine, who has owned a 911 Turbo, now has a Cayenne. He is disappointed. If Porsche makes a profit on it, good for them.
If the Panamera resembles a 911 with four useful seats, then I think it should be considered a “real” Porsche. If it is just a Cayenne sedan, I think not.
Of discontinued models, the original 356 defined the brand. The 924 was junk and the 914, except for the 914-6, not much better. The 944 and 968 continued in the tradition of the 356. The 928 is a supercar. If this country had a sensible attitude about highway speeds, New York to San Francisco could be done in 24 hours with a 928 GTS. I have never understood why people turned up their noses at it.
From a question of performance, the Cayenne is a total failure – a truck that acts like a sports car? I’d have more respect if it could haul stuff and actually do truck-like things.
The Boxster may be for people who can’t afford a 911, but it is the better platform, so it counts. The 911 of course. I’d say the Carrera GT wasn’t really a Porsche so much as another generic super-car, and not even that great of one for the money.
They are, of course, doing the same thing BMW did, shifting from sports cars to luxury cars. A small, agile 3-series competitor could have remained more true to the Porsche ethos, especially if they had stripped the bloat out of the current 3 class. A luxo-barge touring car? Never.
If they are going to be swallowed up into the VW monster, perhaps they can go back to focus on sports cars and let VW take the trucks and basic sedans and Audi have the touring sedan. But I doubt it, since apparently every brand has to compete in every segment.
If you see someone driving a Porsche and do not automatically go into suffering-from-Tourettes like fits of saying “douchebag, douchebag, douchebag” then it is not a true Porsche.
Cayenne: Yes, the most “Porsche” Porsche yet, only a true douchebag would spend a premium for an uglier Touareg with a crappier interior.
Panamera: A non-douchebag might buy one. Possibly not a Porsche.
Epic lulz. Which only makes this funnier:
The idea that there must be a true Porsche reeks of snobbery.
Porsches are the ultimate male handbag.
@ Kendahl,
The 911 is NO GT. Its a full on sports car, make no mistake. A GT wouldn’t populate the paddock of the Nurburgring every weekend (and weekday for that matter) if it were a GT cruiser.
They outrun, and outgun the Cayman’s, simply due to more power, and more grip, and nearly as good handling. If Porsche adds more power to the Cayman (finally), it might change it up a bit, but as of now, the 911’s are the uber-’Ring vehicle of choice. Nothing else touches them. Forget the GT-R, I don’t drive Robots.
@ everyone,
I’ve driven nearly everything modern Porsche has to offer, but the Panamera. I own a Boxster S (the original), and a Carrera S (997), and they are every bit a true Porsche. So was the 944, 928, and 356, and yes, the Cayenne.
What a true Porsche should be, and hopefully will always be is a sports car (or truck) that involves the driver in an interaction to cohesive as to be transcendent that it justifies its exorbitant price. 911, Cayman, Boxster, and the other GT/Sports cars are self evident. The Cayenne, take it off-road, and then you will discover its DNA. It is at much home on the Rubicon Trail (and yes, if you read my Cayenne review, you will see I REALLY took it off road), as a 911 is at home on the Nurburgring. This dedication to providing one of the best driving experiences in its intended mission is what Porsche is about.
My judgement is reserved for the Panamera. But my initial impression? Its a four-door 924. Discuss.
@Mike Solowiow:
It (the Cayenne) is at much home on the Rubicon Trail (and yes, if you read my Cayenne review, you will see I REALLY took it off road), as a 911 is at home on the Nurburgring.
That is an interesting take. So, theoretically, if Porsche were to build a sport pick-up truck that feels at much at home on the job site, towing, and hauling as the 911 does on the ‘Ring, you, as a Porsche fan, would be okay with that?
I’ve also got to ask, is the Cayenne really any better off-road than the Touareg so as to justify its existence?
@ ajla,
Sport Pick-Up. I would say yes… if it were really good at that sort of thing… but towing and hauling doesn’t really translate to driving excitement really, or at least not IMO (tractor-pull fans might disagree).
And the Cayenne has more off-road goodies standard. And you can get it in a stick-shift, which warms my heart.
, it might change it up a bit, but as of now, the 911’s are the uber-’Ring vehicle of choice. Nothing else touches them.
The track is in germany, porsche is the german marquee sports car, and the 911 is the only model they allow the high output motors in.
If anything, porsche’s been losing the ring title quite badly as of late every since other manufacturers have been testing there.
I think a “true Porsche” is one built by a company that actually cares about the quality of its product, not one built by people who solely and only care about maximizing short-term profits and nothing else.
I’ve now owned exactly 100 cars in my life, with a few of them being Porsches – a 356, 914, 911, and most recently, a Boxster S, and have driven many more. IMHO, the Boxster was clearly built by people with a different mindset (”The most profitable car company in the world”) than those who built the 356 and 911 (”Excellence was expected”, “There is no substitute”). Evidence of cost-cutting was everywhere in the Boxster. While it was an absolute blast to drive, and made for a fantastic ‘test-drive’, it was not so satisfying to own. Worst of all was the sword of Damacles hanging over the head of every pre-2009 Boxster owner: the ticking time bomb of potential catastrophic engine death due to IMS (Intermediate Main Shaft) failure. When I heard that Porsche was beginning to balk on warranty claims for IMS failures, I knew the time had come to say goodbye to cars now built by hedge fund managers in drag – Wiedeking and Harter.
IMHO, it doesn’t matter as much what the specifc car is – convertible sports car, sedan, or other (though it is very hard for me to choke down the thought that a SUV can be a “sports car”), but its soul. The 356 and 911, and pretty much any air-cooled Porsche as well as some of the tasty older water-cooled ones (944) had soul. They were simply great cars, no excuses. They were designed and built by engineers who wanted to make a great car, and in the process of doing so, made a profit.
Wiedeking and Harter don’t give a rat’s a$$ about cars. Their only mission in life is money, and they’re shrewd enough to realize that there are a lot of people out there who will buy almost anything with the Porsche crest on it. For a while. But, just like Mercedes lost a lot of loyal fans over the past few years because of plummeting reliability and quality, so too is Porsche.
Worst of all, Wiedeking and Harter so completely took their eye off the ball of what Porsche was supposed to do – like, maybe, actually build cars – and got so caught up in their own game of finance that they lost it all in their little game to try and swallow VW.
Let’s hope that the next generation of management might actually know something about cars and will care to build a quality product, before Porsche goes the way of so many other has-been car companies.
I have issues with both the Cayenne and the Panamerica. The goals of the Cayenne were flawed to begin with. I doubt many people are going to take the Cayenne off road. As such, a high performance SUV that can actually go off road is the answer to a need hardly anyone has, particularly at the prices charged by Porsche.
The Panamerica just doesn’t break any new ground. It is too big, too heavy and too expensive. I don’t see much difference between this car and the Caddy CTS-V, which can be had for FAR less.
I’m not convinced a 911 with an automatic is a real Porsche. If the vehicle fits between a Lotus and a Ferrrari, then it’s a Porsche. If it competes with an MDX, LandCruuiser, CLS, Bentley or 750, then it isn’t a Porsche.
I’m sure the Panamera is a wonderful car. Give it some LED eyeliner and it would be a wonderful halo for Audi.
Strippo:
Three words: Porsche Westfalia Camper.
It. Could. Work.
It. Does. Work.
Carguy:
Why have you ignored the Cayenne Turbo that does 0-60 in under 5 seconds and tops out at nearly 180 mph?