Down here, almost all dealers, come review time, try to add a whole bunch of mostly unnecessary extra services (like fuel injector cleaning, I ask why if they’re supposed to be self-cleansing?). This is part of the came. As a smart consumer you just say no, demand what’s in the manual and make clear you won’t put up with any crap. Friendly, stress-free? Certainly not, but that’s how it works. And the result is that after the warranty expires, people just don’t go back to the dealer. Can’t they see they’re shooting themselves in the foot?

As anybody who’s read my comments can attest, I’m a Fiat guy. But even so, after a run of about 4 of their cars, I got sick of the sealer experience. Mind you, the dealers not the cars. And so I shopped around. Because of that Fiat lost about 3 sales and my business for about 5 years. Now I’m back in the fold though and I’m happy to report the dealer experience is much improved making me positive another Fiat car is a possibility in the mid term (’cause now I have a brand new car and a 2 year old one ’cause I knew the crunch was coming and I hurried to beat it).

on the other hand, to get rid of a POS Ford Ka I bought brand new last year I took the financial hit. The dealers were helpful and all, the company even called me a couple of times (Even though the e-mail I sent to Ford USA complaning was answered in a very perfunctory kind of way I didn’t appreciate), but they just didn’t fix the lemon. Instead of changing it for me, an losing some cash, they preferred to see me wander off and buy a car from a competitor (Renault and one who in Brazil is hot going after Ford’s 4th place in the market). In other words, they preferred to save a little money upfront than invest in making more money down the line. Stupid? Me thinks.

But, do I hate Ford? No. Will I be buying their product anytime soon? No. I don’t know how badly ripped off Americans were in the 70s and 80s, but it must have been mayor for so many of you to hate your home companies. Don’t do that. It’s not worth it. And the American landscape will be much poorer if they die, everybody driving Civics and Corollas and CRVS and whatnot.

End of rant.

They are absolutely out of touch with their customers, in part because they are in that backward looking nostalgic quagmire that is southeastern Michigan.

Yep, Robert,

Nobody is dissing the folks who live around Detroit. Nope, not at all. These must not be the droids I’m looking for.

http://www.ridelust.com/autoblogs-make-work-bias-and-the-truth-about-the-gm-bailout/

“People hate Detroit,” is about as specific as, “We went to a good restaurant.”

I do think geography and culture both play a certain role in this perceived jealousy, which does exist. Hate is a rather strong word to use for critics. When Detroit and Michigan (Donor State) were wealthy, many other areas of the country looked at us with a HUGE amount of jealousy. Lot of politicians and movers/shakers in the south eyed Detroit with suspicion and semi-hatred due to the Arsenal’s success. Remember, this was a place where a hillbilly with a 4th grade education could work hard on the line at Dodge Main and earn enough to have a home, and possibly send his kids off to college.

It was a HUGE cultural change. Now, don’t tell me that other areas of the country weren’t jealous. The American auto industry was built and driven from Detroit. Sure, there other small makers located in other states but they meant little. A LOT of recent jealousy and hate has been directed at Michigan from California. Recently, Michigan has authorized film tax breaks and several dozen films have been moved their shoot locations from California to Michigan. You think that doesn’t piss em off at least a bit?

Watch this http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=922861345&play=1

I agree with what you wrote. Some posters comments could be construed as kneejerk reactions rather than actual hatred. Others (the ones who would pull the lever in your example) really do hate the D3 for whatever reason. I think though, that RF is correct that the sort that would pull that lever are actually in the minority.

OK, now to be serious. Bunter1, thank you for pointing out that “disagree” is not synonymous with “hate.” Similarly, I would say that “criticism” is not inherently tortious. Sadly, our societal conversations tend too often to veer into invective. That is especially the case when Internet posters have the protection of anonymity.

Long ago I came across an adage that struck me as deeply true: “The root of all hatred is self-hatred.” A person who feels victimized, and lacks the means of redressing the injustice, comes to despise his impotency–and therefore, others who are better off. I suspect those angry about purchasing bad cars are more likely to resent domestic manufacturers because Detroit and the UAW are seen as having enjoyed a privileged status.

In these terms, the D3 and UAW are like spoiled children, accustomed to living well and now trying to avoid the consequences of bad decisions. “Tough love” is the remedy, and only bankruptcy can force the necessary sacrifices. Some will suffer hugely, but we must keep a sense of perspective. Detroit’s retirees enjoy, we often hear, gold-plated health coverage and pensions. We know UAW members have terrific health benefits; I bet D3 retiress also have enviable pensions. (Anyone have specifics?) A partial reduction in their standard living is surely not the same as being made destitute.

Like I said, nobody knows a family’s problems better than family members.

“There’s a lot of frustration in *knowing* that no matter what amount of money is thrown at these guys nothing fundamental will change. I’d say the prevailing feeling is anger and frustration.”

You got that right. And that in and of itself is not hate. But as someone else said here if you could go “dumpster diving” thru the old threads you would find plenty of examples of hate filled comments towards the D3. Although GM seems to have more than the others (maybe this is in tune with their former market share?).

Now to be fair, I believe the majority of people who make comments like “I hope you die GM!”, or ” I will celebrate the day this company goes down the tubes”, don’t really mean it. They are just venting their frustrations for something that happened to them that they feel (rightly or wrongly) is the fault of the D3. But if you gave them a magic lever to pull that would end the company’s existince and put all those employee’s and businesses that depend on that automaker out of work they would not do it. Unfortunately, I fear that there are some who really mean it and would pull such a lever.

But here is what I do hate – The culture that has been created within my company and I stepped into 10 years ago.

It’s the culture that rewards failure and touts ’successes’ like creating a new process, or executing a recall efficiently, instead of figuring out the root cause so it doesn’t happen again. (true story-one of the groups I was in received a prestigious award for sending out apology letters to customers)

I hate a culture that is long on excuses, but short on admission, and accountability is non-existent.

Th people at the top of my company have been rewarded with raises and promotions during a time in which market share has been cut by a third (roughly) and the stock has dropped 90%. But thy have been REWARDED during this time….why would they change their behavior when this exact behavior (excuses and obfuscation) got them to where they are today?

I like my job and love my company,and want to see it succeed, but frankly in my opinion it it needs a Chapter 11, along with a fundamental culture shift brought about by a charismatic, visionary leader in order to survive..

Gamper,

While researching that word, I came across a beautiful word from the Buddhist tradition, mudita, “sympathetic joy” or “happiness in another’s good fortune,”. In Yiddish, there’s a phrase, “shep nachas”, from the Hebrew word nachat which means comfort or rest, and means taking pleasure, pride or comfort in the achievements of others – often your kids or others with whom you have ties.

:) Actually, I *do* have a problem with that to a fair extent. I know *I* wouldn’t live in a flood plain. It just seems foolish to me. Especially when the consequences can be that catastrophic. On the other hand though, I don’t hate people from New Orleans. I just think it’s a stupid place to build a city.

Even more stupid to rebuild it there.

My point is that I can cite handfuls of examples of the taxpayers not only throwing good money after bad but do it so time and again. I figure that if we can afford to insure people living on flood plains and let them use our money to rebuild over and over, the argument that there’s no guarantee that a bailout will work doesn’t hold water, no pun intended. We do shit with no guarantees all the time, even worse, we fund things knowing that they’ll fail.

I wonder how the AFT/NEA feel about the bailout. After all, they keep clamoring for more money to be allocated to education and the public schools in the United States are so, so successful.

OK nine: what did GM do about Bill Heard Chevrolet’s thievery?

Is the dealership still open? Eventually GM pulled the plug on their floorplanning. To be sure, it might have been because BHC was starting to rip off GM and GMAC, but they did eventually step in.

Considering how powerful franchise laws are, I’m not sure what a manufacturer can do unless the dealer has broken contractual agreements. Perhaps the solution is for the manufacturer to make customer service levels part of the contract, just like they do with forcing building of new showrooms.

Dealers are critical in the process. Toyota gained a foothold in the US market not just because their cars were reliable. The cars they sold in the 1970s were hardly stellar. At the time, I was a parts runner for Coop Auto Repair in Ann Arbor. The Toy store had a wall full of love letters to the dealer – not about the cars but about good customer service.

If people scammed by BH hate Chevrolet (or similar), can we really blame them?

Only when that hate is transferred to Detroiters and Michiganders, something you deny is happening.

But can you show me an example where a transplanted automobile company allowed such epic, widespread consumer fraud?

Yeah, Google Mel Farr. His original Ford dealership was visible from my house. He did shit like weekly payment financing, shut off devices if you didn’t make your payment and in general made his money selling cars to folks who couldn’t buy them. BTW, the Rev. Jesse Jackson had equity in the company making the shut off devices. No exploitation of poor people there, no not at all.

Ford eventually pulled his Ford and Mercury franchises. His unsavory history as a dealer didn’t stop Hyundai and Kia, eager to expand, from giving him franchises. Suzuki awarded him a franchise as well. All this took place, as far as I now, after Ford shut him down. One day the lot at the Ford Dealer (formerly Northland Ford, in business since the early 1960s) was denuded of cars and Ford’s taking down the sign, and a few weeks later up pops a Kia dealership on 8 Mile.

One reason why too many dealers hurts a manufacturer is quality control. If you have fewer dealers it’s easier to ride herd on them.

:) Actually, I *do* have a problem with that to a fair extent. I know *I* wouldn’t live in a flood plain. It just seems foolish to me. Especially when the consequences can be that catastrophic. On the other hand though, I don’t hate people from New Orleans. I just think it’s a stupid place to build a city.

I agree about Chrysler. I somewhat agree about GM (except I would have used a Titanic analogy rather than the aircraft carrier one). I agree about Ford especially. If anyone could make the most of the proposed bailout money, it’s them.

Anyway, if people *do* actually hate the D3, it’s tough to refute some of their justification. I just think that there are too many variables to boil it down to simple hate for the vast majority.

Do you disagree that the D3 are poorly run and unsustainable even with a bailout?

What does that have to do with hating Detroiters and Michiganders? Nobody knows how poorly run the automakers are more than the folks who work for them and do business with them. When I worked for DuPont we had 2 dozen accounts receivables folks who worked on nothing but trying to get GM to pay us for our paint. They wouldn’t follow our guidelines for applying our products and then blame us. They’d be too cheap to flush their lines out, but quick to complain about dirt or other contaminants in the finish. I worked for a small business that sold to Chrysler, Ford and the Federal gov’t but wouldn’t even bid on GM because they take forever to pay. Of course, there was also the Inaki debacle.

Chrysler is unsustainable, particularly because they have no product in the pipeline. Jeep may survive as a brand.

GM is a tossup. I think the problem with GM is that it’s just so bureaucratic and has the maneuverability of an aircraft carrier.

Ford seems to have their shit together under Mullaly so if they can get past the current crisis they have the best chance of the 3 to turn it around.

What evidence is there that any of the Big 3 (with a possible exception of Ford) might actually do anything meaningful with the bailout money other than keep the lights on a few months longer?

What evidence is there than any of the folks bailed out with taxpayer funded flood insurance will move away from a flood plain? We’re spending about $300 billion rebuilding New Orleans, a city that’s below sea level.

Do you have a problem with rebuilding New Orleans? It will, you know, flood again.

In the same manner as the CNN scribe, the NYT editorial board tars all those who oppose mass immigration and illegal immigration with synonyms for “hater.” At this point, mass immigration is stupid [in this case de facto] policy, as probably is a bailout.

Well at least when you disagree with the PC world view.
If they disagree with you…

If a buddy of mine in a wheel chair with no mountaineering experience says he is going to climb K2 and I opine that the odds are against him is that hate?

Sane, intelligent thinking that goes against “conventional” media thinking is “hate”.

“A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a live thing can go against it” G. K. Chesterton

For life,
Bunter

The thing is, with the situation the D3 have gotten themselves into, it’s going to generate some very strong feelings. Those feelings are not always likely to be sympathy. Despite that, I wouldn’t characterize it as simple hatred.

There’s a lot of frustration in *knowing* that no matter what amount of money is thrown at these guys nothing fundamental will change. I’d say the prevailing feeling is anger and frustration.

Two words: Bill Heard.

OK, three: Bill Heard Chevrolet.

OK nine: what did GM do about Bill Heard Chevrolet’s thievery?

If people scammed by BH hate Chevrolet (or similar), can we really blame them? Are they wrong? Yes, the transplant stealerships are also a pox. But can you show me an example where a transplanted automobile company allowed such epic, widespread consumer fraud?

But again, I reckon BH and other D2.8 dealership victims are a majority. They probably assign blame for bad service to dealerships in general.

As for crap cars, well, that’s another matter. And if that resentment, perhaps even hatred lingers, well, whose fault is that? Blaming the victim is never a good idea, for anyone concerned.

gamper

Example?

“Bozoer Rebbe:

Do you disagree that the D3 are poorly run and unsustainable even with a bailout?”

That wasn’t the point about his post. That wasn’t the topic at hand. His feeling about the condition/blame/bailout of Detroit was not the topic.

“It’s more expeditious to accuse someone of hate than to debate tangible issues, esp. when facts are not in support of what they support.”

As a conservative I experience this all too often.

Go figure…..

So you’re saying that a mega dealer deliberately sends its worst employees to staff their domestic stores?

I’d really like you to explain how this works? The dealers are owned by the same company and report to the same managers. While the manufacturers have some say in franchisees operations, on the showroom floor it’s up to the dealer, not the RenCen or the Glass House.

Do you think Roger Penske runs his Chevy stores differently than his Toyota shops?