By on February 23, 2016

Ban Hammer, Image: Image: Marcus Yeagley/Flickr

Much ink has been spilled regarding predictive policing tactics as of late. Numerous law enforcement agencies all over the U.S. are relying on historical crime data, metropolitan topographical features, and other pieces of information to data model crimes yet to be committed.

We lack those pieces of high-tech gadgetry here at TTAC, yet I (and many others) predicted exactly what was about to happen in the comments of an incredibly well written and thoughtful story about a girl and her car.

That saddened me — and then I reached for my therapeutic ban hammer.

Two articles were posted today that I knew would elicit a certain response from the “Best & Brightest.”

The first post, Jack’s take on masculinity and crossovers … and a lot of other things … drew people in with the well-crafted prose one expects from Jack. The comments lit up. Members of the B&B were either in absolute agreement or violently opposed to the piece. Many hundreds of comments later, I haven’t moderated a single reply or banned a single person.

Then, later this morning, we posted a story from David Holzman about a girl who loved her car so much that she had it transported from Massachusetts to Hawaii. Some people thought this would be the best opportunity to express their new-found “masculinity” and take the story’s protagonist down a peg. Why those particular commenters felt the need to attack someone for enjoying and loving what they already have is beyond me.

Many comments were edited. Some comments were deleted entirety. And two users — RideHeight and CJinSD — have been given one-week bans.

So, you may ask, why the inconsistency in moderating comments and users between the two pieces?

Unlike these new-fangled predictive policing methods, I’ve taken a very reactionary stance toward comment moderation: if nobody complains to me directly about unruly comments, I leave them alone. However, I investigate immediately when someone picks up the phone and dials 911-TTAC.

Today garnered no moderation requests on Jack’s article, but it sure did on David’s. With the additional factor of the person in David’s story not being here to defend herself — not that she should/would want to be here with this crowd — something needed to be done.

Now you know. Clean it up.

[Image: Marcus Yeagley/Flickr]

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342 Comments on “Reacting to the Predictable...”


  • avatar
    VoGo

    Sounds fair. Keep up the great work, Mark!

  • avatar
    seth1065

    100% agree with VoGo

  • avatar
    28-Cars-Later

    My personal advice is do what you think is best as Managing Editor but be mindful of becoming a censor.

    • 0 avatar

      When the comments attack a person simply because they exist, I think it’s well within my authority and duty to censor those comments.

      Attacking the ideas posed by someone is fair game. I enjoy watching the lively debate unfold.

    • 0 avatar
      racer-esq.

      I am a First Amendment absolutist. However, the First Amendment does not apply to private parties unless they have been granted government authority or monopoly (e.g. InterNIC in the past with domain names), in which case it is critical that the First Amendment does apply.

      Otherwise with private parties it is up to people to vote with their dollars/ad-reads/adblock enabled nothing. For me the standard comes down to this:

      Baruth or Bertel style article / political article / controversial automotive article: Any banning or deletion must pass VERY strict scrutiny otherwise the source is not respectable. This was a BIG issue with Bertel. Baruth, on the other hand, talks trash but let’s people talk it back to him. Which is particularly courageous given that Baruth drives an Accord Coupe and is still desperately trying to make the John Stamos haircut work long after even John Stamos gave up on it.

      Non-political article about a non-internet famous person and their car: I’m pretty open to banning or deletion for creepy or mean posts.

  • avatar
    FormerFF

    Thank you, Mark.

  • avatar
    TonyJZX

    I think its the difference between say Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump.

    Mr. Holzman is like any or many of the past contributors, they do a fine job but its hard to differentiate one from the other, they all do a fine job but they are not Jack.

    Jack is Jack. When Jack writes an article like masculinity and crossovers, you’re going to get the kind of comment to that kind of article and if you ban based on that, its a bit hypocritical. Don’t go in there looking for nuanced debate.

    If you write an article about women and cars and you get the chauvinistic replies then you must ban, you dont want to encourage the masses.

    • 0 avatar
      JimZ

      the thing is, the problem here isn’t the articles. the problem was in the comments of said articles. I read most of what Jack writes here, at R&T, and on his own site. I’m running at about a 70/30% agree/disagree rate with him.

      I mean, yeah, maybe Jack’s last couple of articles have been contentious, but they’ve spurred discussion about their content, and mostly without us writing each other off as pieces of s**t.

      however, I can’t understand why David’s Corolla article evoked such garbage.

    • 0 avatar
      Arthur Dailey

      @TonyJZX is probably correct re: Jack.

      I regard Jack’s writing and public persona to be similar to that of Jeremy Clarkson or Don Cherry (all Canadians and Bostonians will know about Don). It is meant to be provocative. And probably does not truly reflect their own, off-work personal style.

      And Jack’s and Clarkson’s articles are generally social commentary wrapped inside a story allegedly about vehicles.

      • 0 avatar
        TrailerTrash

        I don’t think they resemble as you suggest.
        Clarkson is a bit bully and over the top. And his comments never border on sexual bragging or fantasy. But Jack, although my favorite writer since RF, does seem to relish his manhood.
        At least these days more so.
        This is kind of boring and out of place when we are here to enjoy each other’s auto thoughts.

        We just need to control the inner monkey and be free to enjoy car talk…male or female.

        And I do like Mark’s censorship policy. Seems fair…although waiting for complaints is rather late.

  • avatar
    Drzhivago138

    In the old Pokemon games, if you tried to do something like ride your bike indoors or use a fishing rod when not next to water, the voice of your mentor Professor Oak would admonish you: “[Player name]! This isn’t the time to use that!” Deciding when to comment and when to hold one’s tongue (or in this case, fingers) is a bit like that, since the consequences can be more severe than a simple admonishing.

  • avatar
    MrGreenMan

    Well, this article made me read the Corolla one – which, admittedly, I didn’t read the first time because the car in the title was a Corolla.

    I always liked Bertel’s metaphor of TTAC as a dinner party – people can get passionate about things, and, if voices started to get raised, the host should encourage them to get back into line,, but, when you get too hammered, you have to leave the party and sober up.

  • avatar
    Parousia

    Good call, Mark. There’s nothing that needs to be said at the “R” level than can’t be said at the “PG-13” level. I read TTAC for the articles, as they are interesting, well-written, and not dependent on back-of-the-school-bus language to get their points across; it is not too much to ask the same from the BnB.

  • avatar
    Xeranar

    I didn’t see any of the comments but TTAC B&B can turn into creepy lechers without seconds. I don’t get how that happens, I didn’t grow up around that kind of talk and for the most part these people are educated types…So yeah, go for it. I initially thought it was about our stirring political talk but this is completely reasonable.

    • 0 avatar
      TrailerTrash

      Its the safety of the internet.

      Kinda like drive by punk heroes in cars. They feel the safety from behind the keyboards perhaps thousands of miles away. Shout something nasty and drive off.

      You might say cowardly, really.

  • avatar
    BoogerROTN

    So you’re sayin’ more Russell Wilson, less Cam Newton?

  • avatar
    SCE to AUX

    Lifestyle choices will always draw critics, even when no question was posed regarding those choices.

    I didn’t read Jack’s crossover article, and only casually read the Corolla article. The comments there appeared to be going awry, and I didn’t see anything worth getting twisted about as a commenter. My only thought was of a couple ca. 1999-2001 Prizm/Corollas I’ve worked on, and marveling that the girl was still driving one.

    Keep up the good work, Mark.

  • avatar
    dr_outback

    I’m so glad I have better things to do than criticize people.

    Thanks for cleaning house, Mark.

  • avatar
    mikey

    Well done Mark……As a long time member of the B&B , I’ve developed a pretty thick skin. Jacks piece , was pretty entertaining , the comments that followed were , just about what I expected. They to were entertaining ..

    David’s well written article was was kinda nice. A young girl making her way in the reality of the new world, was interesting . I liked it . Some of the comments that followed were disgusting.

    David has been here a long time, and has always been a decent human being,. He deserved better than that.

    • 0 avatar
      highdesertcat

      “As a long time member of the B&B , I’ve developed a pretty thick skin.”

      Mikey, you’re also someone with decades of automotive real-world experience that is beyond reproach, as opposed to some commenters who come here with an agenda they want to advance.

    • 0 avatar

      A heartfelt thank you, Mikey.

    • 0 avatar
      mcs

      David is a great writer. I’m a fan of his writing here and in other publications. We’re lucky to have him here.

      Great to hear from you, Mikey. This afternoon, I flew over Oshawa and along the northern shore of Lake Ontario on the way to Boston and automatically thought of you. Hope you are doing well.

  • avatar
    mikey

    Thanks HDC…

  • avatar
    Ryoku75

    I’ve skimmed both Jacks piece and the article he was responding to, I couldnt be bothered to respond though, Crossover talk just feels old at this point.

    This sites obsession with faint “sportyness” baffles me more than the average Joes CUV purchase, gimme extra space anyday over sporty pretensions. Gimme a fat Tahoe over a generic Chevy SS.

    I dont see the problem with the Corolla story, I and many others have found a business buying and selling old crap. But then again, bland old Toyotas seem to elicit far more emotions than they have any right to.

    • 0 avatar
      highdesertcat

      “I and many others have found a business buying and selling old crap.”

      That’s for sure! When I was young and broke, Garage Sales provided the answers to many of my needs.

      Later, that spread to Estate Sales as well.

      It’s amazing what I have picked up for scratch over the many decades and later resold for a handsome profit. Things like tools, construction equipment, air compressors, welding rigs, AC generators, utility trailers, guns, ammo, reloading gear, fishing tackle, car parts, etc etc etc.

      What is one person’s trash is another person’s Treasure.

      • 0 avatar
        Ryoku75

        Nice work on your end, for me its been junkyard bits and appliances, the more I do this stuff the less I gripe about hagglers and wishy-washers, it just comes with the territory.

        I’ll never grasp the TV shows behind this though, why would I watch other people buy sell junk? I can do that anytime I want!

        • 0 avatar
          highdesertcat

          Ryoku75, for me it was more that necessity was the mother of invention.

          By that I mean, I had a need for something and I scoured around, looking for love in all the wrong places, including junkyards.

          Along the way I also found a lot of discarded things that I thought worth having if the cost was low enough.

          But like on those TV shows you mentioned, the stuff I acquired, accumulated, bought, trade-for, etc, had retained a lot of value in the real world.

          When I quit working more than a year ago, I started to sell off everything I no longer had a need for, or that my kids or grandkids did not want.

          I am truly amazed at how much money these old and well-used items brought in casual sales.

      • 0 avatar
        Frylock350

        @HDC,

        You ever get into reclaimed wood? I love reclaimed wood furniture.

    • 0 avatar
      Hummer

      Jack didn’t say anything negative about SUVs such as the Tahoe, he was talking about crossovers.

      An SUV is in no way as awful as a life sucking crossover, theres actual purpose and use in the SUV, and someone wants it for reasons other than being the cheapest set of wheels come 15 years.

      • 0 avatar
        Drzhivago138

        Please, remind us again of how a vehicle with better ride and MPG than an SUV has no ‘actual purpose” for buyers who don’t want or need offroadability.

        • 0 avatar
          Hummer

          What purpose other than carting around people is a crossover? Who wants a CUV after its 10 years old? It’s that simple.

          What’s the original purpose and what’s the late life use. No one wants a 98 caravan unless that’s all they can afford, people still actively seek, pay money and invest tons on old BOF SUVs.

          I’m not being defensive just realistic. Why waste money on something meant to be thrown away, I mean I can’t fathom why anyone would drop the coin on an Acadia that costs $30k knowing full well it’s a POS that will have scrap value in 15 years, it’s ridiculous, among other things.

          • 0 avatar
            Drzhivago138

            I have a CUV that’s 14 years old, and it’s more desirable to me than any SUV. Guess what–not everybody likes what you like, and that’s okay.

          • 0 avatar
            pdieten

            People invest money in old BOF SUVs?

            That comes as a mighty shock to me, considering what my ’04 Durango was worth when I got rid of it last year: next to nothing.

            People-hauling is a worthy goal when that’s what you need a vehicle to do, and vehicles that can do it have value.

          • 0 avatar
            Drzhivago138

            People invest money in 8100-equipped Suburban 2500s and V10 or diesel Excursions. Those two vehicles filled a niche nothing else has completely filled since. But to write off the Lambda CUVs as a waste is just being daft.

          • 0 avatar
            redmondjp

            What are you talking about??? First-generation CR-Vs are still in high demand where I live (non-rust area). Same is true for RAV4s. I don’t see the appeal myself, but I have never gone with the crowd (resulting in my vehicle choices having low resale values – oh well).

          • 0 avatar
            sportyaccordy

            What other purpose besides “carting people around” does a car need to exist?

      • 0 avatar
        Ryoku75

        Tis necessity here too, the job markets a joke but I need gas money somehow.

        @ Hummer: Being a bit defensive much?

    • 0 avatar
      Felis Concolor

      The greatest non-editorial automotive publication in history began as a couple of guys who learned a little something about buying and selling old crap.

      If you’re a classic car restorer or just an avid hobbyist who’s looking for the right dog dish or full cover hubcaps for your ride, you’ve already thumbed through the Hollander Parts Interchange manuals or pulled up a PDF on a desktop, notebook or tablet computer.

    • 0 avatar
      tjh8402

      @Ryoku75 – “This sites obsession with faint “sportyness” baffles me more than the average Joes CUV purchase, gimme extra space anyday over sporty pretensions. Gimme a fat Tahoe over a generic Chevy SS.”

      I don’t disagree with a need for space, but if that’s what people need, why are they buying a compromised vehicle to get it? That’s what Jack, myself, and other crossover haters don’t get. My parents needed space. They wanted something that could carry as much, if not more, people and stuff than my Mom’s Lincoln Town Car. They bought the most space efficient vehicle on the market – a minivan, and it’s the perfect vehicle for their needs. No SUV or CUV carries as much stuff and few save the smallest can deliver a 25 mpg average. If you want space, great, buy a Honda Fit. Will carry more stuff than most compact and subcompact CUVs, get dramatically better mpg, and cost you a lot less, including compared to it’s own platform mate, the HR-V. A Prius V has nearly as much total space as a RAV4 and twice the fuel economy. A Prius, C-max, and Prius V would be the first place I’d direct any buyer who said they don’t care about sportiness and just want space. You’ll find out real quick what their real buying priorities are (Toyota should start an ad campaign – “Are you man enough to drive a Prius?”)

      Oh, and as much as some would say they don’t care about handling, that lower CoG does make your vehicle safer both for accident avoidance and rollover prevention.

      • 0 avatar
        Drzhivago138

        Some people want/need a compact tall hatchback that also has ground clearance. Or they want/need a vehicle that’s smaller than a minivan but larger than a compact hatch. Hence, the compact CUV for the first and mid-size CUV for the second. The only ones that don’t make as much sense, then, would be full-size CUVs, and yet the Flex is beloved here.

      • 0 avatar
        Zoom

        -Minivans are huge.
        -Most minivans don’t offer AWD.
        -Most people don’t buy a vehicle strictly in terms of “needs”. Style and expression plays a part. What’s wrong with that?
        -I don’t think JB “hates” CUV’s. He liked the CX-5 well enough to hoon it on a track.

        -The CUV versus hatchback argument has been settled. More people like jacked up hatchbacks. Getting older and owning one of each at the moment, I understand why.

        • 0 avatar
          slance66

          I am always perplexed by the seeming leap of some people. MX-5 not big enough, get a minivan! Many people want room for 5, AWD and room to carry some stuff. They also like ease of entry and a higher seating position for visibility. How is this hard to understand?

          • 0 avatar
            stuki

            I doubt any of that is hard to understand. What seems to baffle “enthusiasts,” is that such overtly practical, hence non-“enthusiast” concerns, are all there is to someones purchasing decision. Kind of like how a foodie feels, seeing someone buy frozen dinners solely for the convenience.

      • 0 avatar
        sportyaccordy

        Most crossovers do better than 25 MPG combined.

        http://fueleconomy.gov/feg/PowerSearch.do?action=Cars&path=1&year=2016&mclass=Sport%20Utility%20Vehicles&comb=25&srchtyp=marClassMpg&pageno=1&sortBy=Comb&tabView=0&rowLimit=200

        And not everyone wants or needs the cavernous space and passenger capacity of a minivan. For example I am looking to start a family soon. And yes, my wife and I are shopping for CUVs to replace her hatchback. There is a long list of reasons why a minivan is not even up for discussion, but the most practical one is the fact that to fit one in our garage would require pretty much giving up use of said garage for anything besides parking the minivan, at least in the winter. A CR-V size CUV would give us more interior space than her Rabbit while not taking up more room in the garage, along with having easier loading, more cargo room, and the “command seating” of a taller vehicle, which she wants. All while getting BETTER combined fuel mileage than her Rabbit. It’s a no brainer.

        The sooner folks like you and Jack realize that it is OK for people to want and have things that you don’t, the easier life will be for you. It can’t be enjoyable to be so judgmental and critical of people all the time.

        • 0 avatar
          highdesertcat

          “not everyone wants or needs the cavernous space and passenger capacity of a minivan.”

          But for those who do, I highly recommend the AWD Toyota Sienna minivan. It’s capable. It’s proven to be reliable, durable and holds trade-in value extremely well 3, 5, 7 years down the road.

          Of course looks are entirely subjective. You either like it or you don’t.

          • 0 avatar
            Ryoku75

            Another thing to consider is that minivans have terrible resale value compared to CUVs, and people trade often.

            But then again everyone will jump to trucks the instant gas is cheap, why do I expect people to think long term?

            At Felix: Ill have to check Hollander out, my Volvo could use another dog dish.

          • 0 avatar
            sportyaccordy

            I hear they are miserable to drive though. Odyssey at least has a little fight left in it and holds value well too.

          • 0 avatar
            VoGo

            The Sienna rides smoother and is quieter than the Odyssey. But the Honda is more fun to drive, has simpler trim levels and is a little flashier.

            I know some people like the Sienna because its the only real minivan with AWD, but I suspect most would be a lot happier with winter tires.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            “…they are miserable to drive though.”

            I’ve been a passenger in, and have driven, both of the minivans owned by my daughter and my daughter-in-law and to me they handle like any top-heavy vehicle. You can’t flog them around.

            No sports car but no truck either.

            But when hauling a bunch of people and kids, they fit the purpose. I like the AWD Sienna because we took it onto the beach sand – something we could not do with the Ody.

            I should add that when their kiddies get older my daughter-in-law will most likely buy a mid-size (or larger) SUV, like our 2015 Sequoia.

            My daughter may keep her Ody because she needs the space for her show&tell educational tools and her 18-yo daughter already drives our old 2008 Highlander.

          • 0 avatar
            Ryoku75

            If I’m buying anything non-sports car I have zero interest in it being “fun to drive”, reliability, comfort, and space are what matter. Siennas the better pick for me .

            If I need fun I’ll buy an MR2 project car for the weekends.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            I find that my wife’s Sienna handles quite well for what it is. I do not find them miserable to drive.
            The GC we had was a POS durability wise and had pathetic compression braking but it was okay to drive.

            Toyota products tend to have excellent resale.

            The GC we had sold for the same price as my rusted out 15 yr old F250 with a near dead engine.

            One cannot fire off a blanket statement about resale. Since they are primarily family vehicles spending a $100 for an interior detailing would improve resale by quite a bit.

  • avatar
    210delray

    Personally, I think the two who were banned temporarily had it coming for a long time.

  • avatar
    Lou_BC

    I skimmed the story and took a quick peek at the posts. In some respects it is part of why I was annoyed by the whole less than a man thing if you buy a CUV rant. The very nature of what is “manly” and what is not sets up two standards. One for manly men and one for everyone else.

    A kid is labeled “gay” if he doesn’t prefer “manly” past-times or a “gay” man is derided for that. A “man” can say fVck convention. I can do what the fvck I want. A girl does the same and is looked down upon.

    Jack can brag about unbuttoning some girl’s blouse or skip his son’s birthday to get laid in the desert and we cheer, but if a girl goes off to Hawaii……….posts have to get censored.

    @Mark – you and your staff do a great job.

    • 0 avatar
      Zoom

      Nothing I read in Jack’s article equates manliness with being straight, or vice versa.

    • 0 avatar
      Sloomis

      Lou_BC
      “Jack can brag about unbuttoning some girl’s blouse or skip his son’s birthday to get laid in the desert and we cheer, but if a girl goes off to Hawaii……….posts have to get censored.”

      That’s the nature of a male-cenric website like this, bound to be some chauvinism and thinly veiled misogyny. Even apart from the Baruth story, a month ago there was a story from Kamil Kasuski about how he spent a college summer on a 4-week backcountry safari in Africa that absolutely reeked of privileged trustafarianism, much more so than today’s Corolla story ( I don’t know about you, but my college summers were spent working in a factory to earn tuition money, not taking exotic monthlong vacations overseas). Yet the safari story generated exactly zero abusive comments, from what I remember. Key difference being “bro”-type male as protagonist, instead of hippie female.

      • 0 avatar
        Lou_BC

        Sloomis – I do agree and I’m not pushing for censure of any article that plays the edges. Jack does a wonderful job of writing.

        There is a double standard and we should be aware of it.

        This blog exists so we can express our opinions but as Mark has pointed out, attacking someone crosses the line. Mark also pointed out that the girl wasn’t present to defend herself. Jack on the other hand is fully able to take care of himself.

        I love the fact that TTAC allows conversations to flow off topic and to their natural conclusions. The threads are often vastly superior to the actual published story because of that.

        • 0 avatar
          Zoom

          I personally dislike wading through comment after comment of off-topic, personal conversations, not even remotely related to the article, or even cars. Sometimes it seems like that is 40%-50% of the posts. Nothing can be done about that with the current comment format.

          • 0 avatar
            Drzhivago138

            I like off-topic conversations, but I think the comments should be collapsible so that those who don’t like them (or those who have already read them) don’t have to scroll through several pages’ worth.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @Zoom – you don’t hit 500 plus hits by staying on topic. Jack is a master at stimulating conversation.

        • 0 avatar
          TrailerTrash

          Lou-BC

          I like you more and more.
          This is not good for you. I would question my positions from now on….

          And folks…masculinity means a whole lot more than sexual prowess…please. But I guess this goes unnoticed until you are to old to really use the knowledge and be of any use.Youth is wasted on the young and wisdom the old, frail and powerless.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            TrailerTrash – thank you.
            I love different view points but more so why one holds them.
            It makes me look at my own values and beliefs.

            The old saying about, “you have to stand for something or you will fall for everything” is a good one with the caveat, “It this a hill worth dying on?”.

      • 0 avatar
        gtemnykh

        RE: trustafarianism

        I think a bunch of us were thinking it but withheld from commentary, seeing as the author was actually there to respond to comments. When it’s a defenseless hippy chick with an old Corolla, it’s a mob-mentality beat down apparently!

    • 0 avatar
      Maymar

      Given the number of self-proclaimed “alpha males” who hang around here (and frequently seem to idolize JB like he’s in Tiger Beat), I wonder how many read this article of his over at R&The.

      http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a28027/when-i-stopped-cutting-my-hair-i-learned-how-men-treat-women-on-american-roads/

      • 0 avatar
        zamoti

        That was indeed an interesting read. It’s interesting from the standpoint that many of JBs articles come with a stripe of “misogynistic douchebaggery” even though he’s been on the receiving end of it.
        The reality is that sexism is alive and well; in forums such as this site provides it shows up a little more clearly because this is a blog written by men for an audience of primarily men. I can only recall a few female editors over the years and I think ONE commenter who identified as female (transgender actually, IIRC).

  • avatar
    Jeff Zekas

    Really liked the article about the girl and her corolla… perhaps cos my son owned an ’83 Corolla called “The Brownie” which was a celebrity in itself!

  • avatar
    Hummer

    I don’t understand the contention in Jacks article, it’s a well written opinion piece, what’s upsetting?
    I couldn’t really get into the Corolla article, what I guess is some chick with extremist views, don’t really care one way or the other.

    • 0 avatar
      Detroit-Iron

      “what I guess is some chick with extremist views”

      Wow. An article about a woman who liked her car enough to go through the trouble of shipping it domestically is reduced to this description? I suppose you would say that Kreutzer is some ‘bro’ with extremist views because he shipped his minivan to Japan? Maybe the fault lies with David for overestimating his audience. Perhaps he should have left out her occupation.

    • 0 avatar
      Drzhivago138

      We know next to nothing about her actual views or leanings. Assume nothing.

    • 0 avatar
      FreedMike

      “Extremist views”?

      Geez. I don’t recall the story talking about any of that young woman’s views.

      Methinks you’re assuming what her views are.

    • 0 avatar

      Some content isn’t written for you. And the “chick” — I’d call her a woman — probably has views that are none of our business.

      This was a car story. Why can’t you enjoy it for what it is?

    • 0 avatar
      heavy handle

      Starting your own business, and the pursuit of happiness, are now extremist views in America. How times change.

      Other than that, she seems like an automotive retro-grouch, which also describes the vast majority of the B&B. Are we all extremists?

      • 0 avatar
        Ryoku75

        Yup, being a capitalist is a terrible dirty thing, how fare we offer goods for currency?

        But playing videogames and begging for donations? Thats fair game, as is asking others to switch off adblock, less they “steal” free content.

        Donate $50 to me Patreon and I MiGHT play Super Mario 3.

    • 0 avatar
      formula m

      Jack is a decrepit creep who is laid up in body casts that probably can’t wipe his ass properly. There is no way that he would be bragging about undoing this woman’s bra if we saw her photo. Jack talks a big game but hides his weathered face behind his disgusting beard. He drives a boxter which is way more feminine than a Honda CRV. I bet he felt manly in his Ford Crown Vic before.
      Crown Vic = new age petophile van

      He has a talent for writing but comes across as a piece of garbage of a person. When people put him on a pedestal around here it encourages these idiots to comment with the same disillusioned attitude.

    • 0 avatar
      RogueInLA

      Weird, did we read the same story? I didn’t read anything about her ‘views’ extremist or otherwise. I thought it was a nice story about someone who loved their car. If the story had been about a young MALE and his car, I imagine the comments would have been quite different.

  • avatar
    -Nate

    Looks like I missed another tempest in a tea pot , I hope it’ll still be up when I get a moment to see what caused a ruckus .

    -Nate

  • avatar
    Dave M.

    Good job Mark.

  • avatar
    Pch101

    CJ is a certifiable nutter with anger management issues, but Ride Height is just having a laugh. I never saw the comments in question, but I can’t imagine that the two of them were comparable to each other.

    • 0 avatar
      Drzhivago138

      The comments were comparable in their content and tone (though definitely not identical given their authors). It all boiled down to passing judgement on someone’s lifestyle without knowing the full story.

      • 0 avatar
        Pch101

        Well, for what it’s worth, I would guess that WWOOFing tends to be a liberal pastime. (I have no data but have met a few people who have done it.)

        But in any case, I thought that the article was about someone who got her old car back because the local ones were overpriced, and that she had the audacity to like it and have a good time with it. Not much controversy there, really.

        Incidentally, I helped a Brit gal with her used car shopping when I was in NZ. After passing on a few others, she ended up with a Corolla (used import from Japan, cheap as chips thanks to the shaken.). It provided her with reliable service during her year there and a lot of great memories, which were made a bit better by the fact that she sold it for a bit more than she paid for it. Anyone who can’t be glad for her can take a flying leap.

        • 0 avatar
          Drzhivago138

          It does tend to be (I’ve been doing WWO_I_Fing for over 20 years, we just call it “farming”), but pigeonholing everyone who does it as a “liberal” is what led to the unsavory comments in the first place.

          • 0 avatar
            Pch101

            CJ is just a whiner. If liberals didn’t exist, then he would have to invent them. (And as it turns out, his idea of what a liberal is is largely in his imagination.)

          • 0 avatar
            Xeranar

            I really have to wonder how old CJ is, truly. His rhetoric sounds like that of a child who grew up under a much more heavy anti-communist influence. I picture him over the age of 50, but born much closer to 1960 than 1940. He really comes across as a late boomer/early Gen X who likes to play the staunch John Bircher because he was told to. So many of his comments read like a bad trolling of a guy with severe issues with what is ‘conservative’ in a small-C way and how things ‘changed’ even though he probably wasn’t around for the prior.

          • 0 avatar
            Pch101

            CJ’s issue isn’t political, it’s personal. He gravitates to hard right politics because he’s angry at the world. In his mind, the politics provide him with a justification for being a hothead, but it could have been anything.

          • 0 avatar

            Guys … let’s not focus on them anymore.

      • 0 avatar
        sportyaccordy

        JB literally does this all the time.

  • avatar
    Scoutdude

    I’d say the right call was made.

  • avatar
    FreedMike

    Good call, Mark.

    Watching people trash some young woman they didn’t know was disappointing to watch, to say the least.

  • avatar
    05lgt

    If the collective wisdom is that farming and operating a small business are “Liberal” identifiers, where does that leave conservatism?

    Thanks for keeping house Mark. I never saw the offensive posts; thank you for that.

    • 0 avatar
      Pch101

      WWOOFing is like the Peace Corps for organic farming. Not quite a kibbutz, but it ain’t exactly agribusiness.

      • 0 avatar
        05lgt

        Agribusiness isn’t exactly farming.

        • 0 avatar
          Drzhivago138

          The two definitions of agribusiness:

          1. Agriculture conducted on commercial principles, especially using advanced technology.

          2. The group of industries dealing with agricultural produce and services required in farming.

          So #1 is definitely us, even on our sub-500 acre postage stamp with 15-20-year-old equipment. We just got an autosteer system for one tractor and we’re working on adding GPS tech to several other tractors. For almost five seasons, we’ve been producing hay on a much larger scale than previously thought possible for a farm of our size, thanks to brand-new equipment that takes about 70-80% of the heavy lifting out of making square bales.

          #2 is any of the local businesses that provide us with seed, fertilizer, herbicide, equipment maintenance and repair, etc. Without them, we’d have to go back to the old way of saving seeds (which we do anyway, but only for small grains and soybeans, not corn or alfalfa), using manure (kinda hard to get a steady supply without any livestock), and walking the fields with a hoe. Without us, the businesses wouldn’t survive.

          Not all farming is agribusiness, but agribusiness is exactly farming.

          • 0 avatar
            05lgt

            Under these definitions, how are you excluding WWOOFing? Organic farming is certainly a commercial enterprise, is as likely or more likely to use GPS enabled optimization… I’m wasting words. Sure, whatever. You are the one true farmer, those who do it differently clearly don’t farm.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            05lgt – perhaps in relation to this girl’s subsistence approach, it moves it out of the realm of agribusiness. A large part of the world functions at a subsistence level at no choice of their own.

            By definition: the action or fact of maintaining or supporting oneself at a minimum level.

            Functioning at a minimal level is also known as survival.

            Farming as a business involves growing a product (Crop) to sell for profit.

          • 0 avatar
            Drzhivago138

            “You are the one true farmer, those who do it differently clearly don’t farm.”

            When did I say that? When did I exclude WWOOFing? Please don’t put words in my mouth. Organic is a valid commercial enterprise (although that statement would be met with varying degrees of popularity among most conventional farmers).

  • avatar
    DeadWeight

    Only truly offensive AD HOMINEM attacks (lodged against staff writers/editors or fellow commenters, not auto execs like JdN or public figures, nor clearly obvious auto salespeople/PR people with industry ties pushing an industry agenda) should subject someone to any punitive action.

    Free speech and open dialogue, even when it spawns vehement, ugly disagreement (and often BECAUSE IT DOES), is highly valuable and even desirable.

    This simple, clearly discernable litmus test follows the KISS principle of what should be extremely limited censorship, for the benefit of all (even those with thin skin & delicate sensitivities).

    When I criticize Alex Dykes, as just one example, it’s because I stake a claim/opinion that he is not nearly critical enough in his reviews (he’s not, by the way, no matter how “thorough” people tend to think his reviews are), and not because I’m speaking of his looks, sexuality, or any other personal criteria.

    • 0 avatar
      Pch101

      She’s not a public figure.

      • 0 avatar
        DeadWeight

        I know.

        I began to read comments in that thread and found a few of them truly disgusting for the reasons that certain people were making idiotic comments about her looks (which are not objectionable, not that this does or should matter, by the way), etc., and it made me angry (and I’m no shrinking violet).

        So, I agree with Mark’s decisions, because said comments were personal, vicious, ad hominem attacks upon a non-public, non-auto industry, essentially private person who did and said nothing to elicit such hateful comments, even IF ad hominem attacks were acceptable (and again, they shouldn’t be, IMO; even though I’m a free speech hawk, I draw the line at ad hominem attacks).

    • 0 avatar
      Jimal

      Free speech exists on a website like this only as far as the Government cannot restrict what the editors or we say here. The editorial staff on the other hand is free to do what it wants to control the tone. If we don’t like it, we can go elsewhere.

  • avatar
    mattmers

    I almost made a comment on how cute the girl was but then I realized the That comes off as creepy more then charming. Sometimes its hard to manging this 23yo single male brain but today I prevailed and at 11am I put put my phone down.

    • 0 avatar
      S197GT

      i think complimenting the looks of a random girl on the internet is only creepy if you are *trying* to be charming; that is to say, if it comes off as trying to “hit on” her.

      i suspect that hesitation you are feeling is the awkwardness of the situation specific to a young male such as yourself. at 23 every girl you generally find worth complimenting is one you are probably thinking you’d like to lay. conversely, this is the rare situation where you probably have no interest in hooking up and are just trying to be polite. it’s a weird feeling.

      at 38 and happily (as any man can be) married i have no problem saying i think she is pretty. i often find myself in situations where i find a female attractive but haven’t the slightest interest in hooking up with her. i don’t feel creepy complimenting an attractive female, i like seeing beautiful people! i’m married and have no interest in her or most any other female.

      i’ve actually tried to compliment more females. watch the smile that lights up their face and tell me you didn’t just make their day.

      probably why old guys give out the most compliments. they aren’t trying to do anything but make her smile.

      i don’t know any female that is secure in herself who won’t graciously accept a compliment about her looks. keep it simple and sincere and don’t belabor the point.

      good lord, my wife LOVES when someone compliments her! she will be sure to tell me about it.

      • 0 avatar
        Lou_BC

        I don’t think one should comment upon “looks” unless it is relevant to the story.

        If one had statistics saying that a certain look prefers a specific vehicle then that would be fair game. I read an article were a Ram truck executive said that the average buyer was a 40’s male around 6 ft. tall and 220 lbs has at least one dog and hunts and fishes.

        We also have it on good authority that men with long hair and beards love 2 dr. Honda Accords.

        • 0 avatar
          Drzhivago138

          Jesus had one, but he didn’t like to talk about it. “For I did not speak of my own accord…”

          Later at Pentecost, the same Honda was mentioned as being present with the disciples. “And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.”

          • 0 avatar
            sgeffe

            Yup..just like when the Isrealites stood on a Ridgeline and watched Pharaoh’s army take a dive!

            And some of the old hymnists may have Honda in mind — like the writer of the text of “Jesus, Savior, Pilot Me!” 8-D

            I’m sure I could think of a few more, but I’ll do my Civic duty and shut up!

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            Brilliant.

            One could argue that baseball is in the bible…..

            In the big inning……….

            :)

          • 0 avatar
            Drzhivago138

            And tennis. “[Joseph] was 30 years old when he began serving in the court of Pharoah…”

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            LOL

      • 0 avatar
        Zoom

        Sorry, commenting on the looks of a girl in a TTAC article is creepy and childish, no matter how “charming” you think you are.

        • 0 avatar
          redmondjp

          Well in that case, since this is a website about cars after all, maybe we should fuzz out any faces in the pictures so we can’t even go there.

          • 0 avatar
            Zoom

            Yeah, that would be the equivalent of making woman wear a burka, so the men don’t need to have any personal responsibility over their emotions.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            “… the equivalent of making woman wear a burka, so the men don’t need to have any personal responsibility over their emotions.”

            That’s the problem in Germany and much of the EU right now with all those male refugees not being able to control their emotions. The local police are overwhelmed with complaints.

            At least business is booming in the red-light districts, which makes me wonder where they get the money to pay for those “happy-ending” visits, if they claim to be destitute.

          • 0 avatar
            TrailerTrash

            sorta like protecting you from yourself kinda thing? If you wanna keep a kid from goin bad and stealin…don’t leave your car keys around?

            Naw….folks just gotta grow up and control themselves.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @highdesertcat – citation required

            Must of been Muslims that fondled up those women in Cologne…………..

            Yeh that’s it…….

            it is all their fault.

            Paging Donald

            Paging Donald

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            Lou_BC, it was on CNN. There was even video of it.

            We cancelled our plans to go to Germany because we were told by our relatives that things are very strained there.

            At one time my relatives in Germany thought that illegal aliens in America was overblown but now they think differently with all those refugees there.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            highdesertcat – it is multifactorial. You have a huge influx of refugees with very different cultural beliefs that are struggling with the fact that their homes, homeland and lives are in ruin facing a sometimes hostile and fearful populace in a new land. In many cases the locals are just as much to blame.

            As far as an increase in activity in Red Light districts, that is often just one more sign of desperation. Drug addiction, alcoholism, homicide and suicide rates increase and are all symptoms of a people under extreme stress.

            I’ve seen this sort of thing to varying degrees professionally and writing it off as a sign of racial, religious or ethnic inferiority makes it all that much worse.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            redmondjp – fuzzing out the faces and focusing on the boobs is what tends to get us guys into trouble in the first place ;)

    • 0 avatar
      JimZ

      yeah, even I recognize we’re kind of “wired” to quickly focus on women’s appearances. IMO where it becomes a problem is when we use appearance to form a judgement about or dismiss a particular woman, or apply double standards. One big one I can see is reporters or news anchors; a woman apparently is subject to much higher standards of appearance than a man. Chris Berman is a balding, aging, dumpy sadsack but he can be an anchor on ESPN. Think any heavy, older woman would even get an interview for the job?

      I know Cracked is a humor site, but much of what they write about has at least some measure of truth:

      http://www.cracked.com/article_19785_5-ways-modern-men-are-trained-to-hate-women.html

      • 0 avatar
        sgeffe

        Gotta wonder if some of that isn’t because of the feminist movement, and the recent tendency for men in general being “put down” in the zeitgeist/popular culture?

        Yes, I admit that my first reaction to the appearance was “hippie liberal,” and that was further reinforced by the “organic farming” reference. I would have refrained from using vulgarities to describe it, however.

        If nothing else, some folks can’t get past a stereotype. I’m still guilty of this in many situations, and need to back to out of a political argument (sometimes BEGGING AND PLEADING for the other party to agree to disagree), lest I say something hurtful or which would cause hard feelings.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          sgeffe – humans are still emotionally primitive bags of sh!t.

          We need to constantly struggle to rise above our base instincts.

          Sexual and racial profiling was a great way to survive as post Neanderthal knuckle draggers.
          Now….
          not so much……..
          Unless you are the Donald

          • 0 avatar
            Frylock350

            @Lou_BC,

            Its way more complex than that. Racial profiling is a modern invention, something that would be alien to our 100,000 years ago ancestors. We as a species are actually pretty accepting naturally; its a necessary behavioral component of a highly social animal that works cooperatively. Also we didn’t evolve from Neanderthals nor did we drag knuckles (bipedalism evolved in the ape family tree long before we did). Neanderthals are more like evolutionary cousins to homo sapiens. They were a different species and you know what our ancestors did to them? Sexed them out of existence. Anyone of Eurasian descent has ~4% neanderthal DNA in their genome. If we look at the long history of homo sapiens racist thinking only occupies a tiny portion of it and that portion is all post civilization. So no its not our nature to do it; its a cultural invention.

    • 0 avatar
      Xeranar

      Talking about her looks is pretty much sexism 101. Thinking she’s pretty is awesome, nothing wrong with that. Sharing that with the world for comment is why stories like this suffer from so much chauvinism and sexism. It doesn’t mean you should bottle up your feelings as a man, it means you should know the appropriate place to express when you find somebody attractive.

      I teach every day in front of roughly 70 students (give or take a few who show up on occasion). Most of them are female, about 55%, and I would in a complete show of masculine desire love to bed most of them. I never express it because not only am I in a position of power but it isn’t a socially acceptable way to handle those feelings. If I met them outside at a coffee shop? Fair game…

      It’s all relative. Sharing your views on her beauty when her beauty weren’t part of the discussion is an issue unto itself.

  • avatar
    leshnah

    Good job Mark. I’m a long time reader, and very infrequent poster. As a non-American, Spanish native speaker many times the news and articles do not really compel me enough to write responses. But I sure do like reading them!
    In this particular case, the comments were just plain and simply mean and annoying. She’s lucky, she enjoys driving a chappy car and lives in a beautiful place, with what seems to be a beautiful life. If only we all could enjoy such levels of true success!
    Oh and a I drive a 250000km hand-me-down Rav4 that I adore. Southamerican spec: manual, aircon. It stops, warms me up when it’s cold and cools me when it’s hot. Deals with potholes and is easy to see out and park. I have an old Beetle for “cool car” duties.
    PS: Baruth I’m still waiting for that email about the Texas badges!

  • avatar
    -Nate

    I went and read the Toyota story , I think it’s nice .

    -Nate

  • avatar
    Jimal

    I’ve been lurking around TTAC for a long time now, though I took a long break during the BS era. There have been enough editorial changes here since the site started that the only constant here is a core group of commenters. Some of them – whether you agree with them or not – can at least back up their points of view with facts or data.

    Many of the usual suspects on the other hand remind me more of the angry bomb throwers that populate the comments sections of a local newspaper website. Or CNN.com. Or Yahoo!. In terms of volume (and volume) and tone. Most – if not all – of the comments sections devolve into personal bickering.

    The only thing more annoying about this site is how much junk loads when I visit it.

    • 0 avatar
      Jimal

      The fact that there seems to be one of these follow up editorials because so and so was banned or why comments were edited or removed every few months speaks volumes. This is the only site I frequent where this happens and it isn’t because the regulars are so awesome they have to be reined in every once in a while.

  • avatar
    Mojohand

    Thank you, Mark. Online communities require active moderation and occasional culling or they turn into cesspool. It’s a thankless (well, not entirely thankless) job, but very appreciated.

  • avatar
    Notadude

    Mark, this is why I like you. Thanks for sticking up for us ladies.

  • avatar
    PeterKK

    Mjolnir. Banhammer of the gods. May it smite many foes.

    Keep doing your thing. Let the worst fringes of any group take their bile somewhere else.

  • avatar
    seth1065

    Mark,
    One other thing thank you for letting the B&B know how long the bans are for, it the past BS would just banish people to the cornfields and they would never be heard from again.

    • 0 avatar

      Well, if that’s the case, here’s an update:

      CJinSD’s ban is now permanent.

      • 0 avatar
        01 Deville

        I am no fan of CJ in SD but permanent bans are so BS!
        Banning people is of course your prerogative as the editor but I hope you lean more towards JB in editing rather than BS. If your can read JB’s first post regarding banning of couple of posters, he lays out reasons for banning and his effort in reasoning with the posters behind the scenes before resorting to the ultimate step.

        • 0 avatar

          Emails were exchanged. That’s the reason for the permaban.

          • 0 avatar
            Zoom

            Just curious. How does banning work? Does something prevent someone from creating another account?

          • 0 avatar
            01 Deville

            Makes sense. Thanks for explaining.

          • 0 avatar
            Hummer

            Way back when, the way I understood banning was that, at most, you could IP ban someone, which that someone can then rectify by calling their internet provider and having that changed.
            Usually, I don’t imagine, a site isn’t going to outright IP ban someone.

            So honestly I don’t think there’s anything stopping him from making a new account, though like I eluded to earlier, my knowledge is about 10 years out of date and probably shakey even then.

          • 0 avatar
            aycaramba

            I’m guessing Hummer is right about the ban being account-specific, not IP-specific. I can’t say for sure, but I’m pretty sure that one of those banned was just a reincarnation of a B&B member that was previously banned. In fact, I think I remember thinking, “Seems like he’s much better behaved these days.”

            Maybe not.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            Well, that’s your second good call in as many days, Mark. I won’t miss the guy.

            And, for the record, I wouldn’t miss a left winger with the same nasty, condescending attitude either.

          • 0 avatar
            an innocent man

            @aycaramba

            “I can’t say for sure, but I’m pretty sure that one of those banned was just a reincarnation of a B&B member that was previously banned.”

            Yep. I’ve thought the same for quite awhile now. I’m pretty sure we’re thinking the same person.

          • 0 avatar
            dal20402

            I don’t think the account you all are referring to is even that poster’s second identity. I think it’s the fourth that I can recall.

          • 0 avatar
            aycaramba

            @dal I think you’re right. In fact, as I was typing that I was trying to count the ones that I thought might be attributed to him.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            Let me guess……….
            a. Wrapped himself in the flag
            b. 10,000 word rant about socialism
            c. followed by a cut and past of 1st Amendment rights

            Oh, the flag………most likely the one that Bubba painted over on the General Lee

            Gotta mention that since this is a car site ;)

          • 0 avatar
            Xeranar

            Can’t say I’ll miss him but I’m sure he’ll crop up again with a new name..

          • 0 avatar
            mazdaman007

            Good call Mark, thanks.

        • 0 avatar
          FreedMike

          The difference, Deville, is that BS used to make stupidly provocative statements – the whole “Foresters are lesbian-mobiles” nonsense was just one of them – and then banned people for calling him on being a jerk.

          And then he’d ban people for even discussing the matter further.

          Whole different ballgame.

  • avatar
    tresmonos

    I enjoyed reading David’s writing – I am glad I didn’t read the comments. But I did think it was oddly timed right after Jack’s article.

  • avatar
    Land Ark

    If I’m honest, I knew feathers were going to be ruffled by that article. I was just waiting for the inappropriate comments to start flowing. I refrained from commenting because I knew I wouldn’t want to come back and see what other folks were saying. I still haven’t gone back, so I don’t really know what the issues were.

    For whatever reason you cannot post photos of females on a website without there being some sort of turmoil. I would hope that we here would be better than that, but there’s no one at the door keeping anyone out.

    It was clear in some of the comments in Caroline’s pieces that this site wasn’t immune from whatever makes people attack someone for no reason.

  • avatar

    I read that Corolla article. And I’d quite frankly read it again before I read another braggadocio-filled DougBot yarn about getting another one over on CARMAX for having a $5500 electro-mechanical shock damper warrantied or taking a Nissan Figaro in for service and NOT having everyone in the dealer group greet you like the Pope.

    • 0 avatar
      tresmonos

      LOL

    • 0 avatar
      CoreyDL

      This is the third or fourth day in a row I’ve had to see him mentioned and think of those crap articles!

      • 0 avatar
        JimZ

        I like most of what he writes, but I was a Dave Barry fan back in the day and his style is similar.

        I think the best way to look at it is Doug writes for *non-car people.* I’ve sent links to a few of his pieces around at work and more than a few of my co-workers were in stitches.

        • 0 avatar
          sgeffe

          There was (or may still be) a syndicated columnist out there by the name of D.L. Stewart (who commonly used a catchphrase of “the woman who promised to love, honor, and [do something silly, like ‘scramble my bacon’]” to refer to his wife) who had my parents and I roaring with laughter when my dad pointed out a column of his about his son getting his temporary driving permit (“temps”), since as it so happened at that time (May, 1986), ** I ** was doing the same thing!

    • 0 avatar
      Ryoku75

      Oui, if any articles get any vile snorts it should be Dougbots.

      The Corolla story was fine, my only objection with it was the Corolla, and the bizarre comments that come with them. Imo the owner could make use of a Matrix.

    • 0 avatar
      SomeGuy

      Odd, I enjoy Doug’s articles. I guess I don’t take my car blogs as serious as some. Dude is putting up $60k of his own money up year after year to deliver content for FREE. He is a frequent responder to comments on Reddit, YouTube, etc. He even admits financially the cars he would buy he never would fully commit to on a multi-year basis.

  • avatar
    30-mile fetch

    I’m not sure where the thin red line should lie for comment moderation and banning, but the comments in question from David’s article were certainly on the other side of it for me, for the reasons discussed by Mark and others above. The commentariat on this website can be remarkably knowledgeable and a true joy to read, but sometimes we just have this penchant for knowing it all and expressing that in ways that are rather personal and aggressive. I’ve been surprised at some of the nasty personal exchanges here that have escaped moderation, but that isn’t too common and TTAC has been conservative with the ban hammer since Schmidt, which is probably a good thing.

    Thanks for the explanation Mark, and I hope this doesn’t prevent folks like David from contributing in the future.

  • avatar
    bball40dtw

    I guess I missed an interesting day…

    • 0 avatar
      28-Cars-Later

      When is the next VAG survivors group meeting? I felt my Audi C3itis start to kick in the other day.

    • 0 avatar
      tresmonos

      I wouldn’t say you’ll miss it…
      I did notice the absence of your commentary. usually seeing your comments helps me try and lose the typical ‘internet anonymity shield.’ Almost let Arthur Dailey have it (undeservedly)

      You have the same effect of ‘Don’t say anything you don’t want your grandmother to hear’ except on TTAC.

      • 0 avatar
        CoreyDL

        He is your old Church Lady?!

      • 0 avatar
        bball40dtw

        Yeah, yesterday was $hit. My boss got a new boss in December and they have started to replace managers with less experienced (cheaper and less qualified) people from her old department. So yesterday morning was my turn to be axed without cause, severance, or notice. Gotta love corporate America.

        • 0 avatar
          05lgt

          that sucks Bball. You seem like the kind of person who’ll hit the ground moving. I hope you find a better spot than the one you left.

          • 0 avatar
            bball40dtw

            Thanks. I’ll figure something out. I didn’t think I’d be having someone tell me, “Now that your group has the highest productivity in the Operations area, we don’t need to continue your employment. We are looking for someone that fits more with our corporate vision going forward.”

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            We don’t seem to realize we need your leadership in order for your team to continue having the highest productivity in the Operations area. We would prefer productivity fall back to nominal levels just in time for another recession.

          • 0 avatar
            bball40dtw

            28-

            They would rather have productivity fall below the current levels so that they can replace longer tenured (expensive) employees, that my staff was largely made up of, with cheaper temp to full employment workers that they can treat like garbage.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            bball, that sucks massively.

            Been there, tho…I once got fired for supposedly not reporting fraud to a manager, except I actually did. He was nowhere to be found when they let me go. I’d have loved to see him lie about it, but I didn’t get the satisfaction.

            And then a few days later, they had a huge layoff. If they weren’t happy with my work, then fine. But they couldn’t have just waited and laid me off if they weren’t happy with me?

            That one hurt. It wasn’t the first time I’d been s**tcanned but I’d never been treated like that.

            Hang in there.

          • 0 avatar
            bball40dtw

            FreedMike-

            My boss couldn’t even look me in the eye and didn’t wish me luck or anything. He dropped me off with HR (after asking me about my family and weekend on the walk over), went to go retrieve a couple of my personal articles, gave them to the security guard, and never came back. [email protected] that guy. I’ve fired people, and I’ve hated doing it, but you need to be a man and own it.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            Maybe letting you go was NOT your bosses idea, if there was an echelon above your boss.

            Then again, your boss may have felt severe insecurity because your boss may be the next to go.

            Regardless, with your talent and ability to communicate, there is a place for you.

            Use your existing network to let it be known you are available.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            @bball

            Garbage in, garbage out.

            F them.

        • 0 avatar
          28-Cars-Later

          Damn that sucks.

        • 0 avatar
          30-mile fetch

          Sorry to hear that, bball, I hope this hiccup is short lived. We’re rooting for you.

        • 0 avatar
          CoreyDL

          OMG you got fired??? :(

          I’m sorry, that’s fracking terrible.

          • 0 avatar
            bball40dtw

            Yep. Sucks a$$. The upside is my former boss says that I qualify for unemployment. So I got that going for me, which is nice.

          • 0 avatar
            CoreyDL

            At least your wife makes a good income in the meantime, so you’re not racking up debt and stuff.

            With your job history hopefully you’ll be able to find something in short order. Everybody says we’re not in a recession, so in theory it won’t be shockingly difficult!

          • 0 avatar
            bball40dtw

            That’s true. It just takes time.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            Sorry to read about your situation bball. Seems to be the norm in today’s America for vested employees, rather than the exception.

          • 0 avatar
            davefromcalgary

            Wow, coincidental timing bball…

          • 0 avatar
            CoreyDL

            You got axed as well? x.x

          • 0 avatar
            DeadWeight

            Really sorry to hear that, bball.

            That really sucks, but you will survive and maybe can take this opportunity to keep networking and maybe even get into something you may enjoy more (even if that entails getting a more specialized degree or certification)

          • 0 avatar
            davefromcalgary

            Yes. But its all good. Plan B has been upgraded is all.

          • 0 avatar
            CoreyDL

            You both need to write off February as a bad, and not think about it any more. It’s close enough to over.

          • 0 avatar
            bball40dtw

            Thanks HDC. I wasn’t vested, but I was brought in to fix a few issues and put the department on the right path for the future. I did those things, but once they were done, I still wasn’t part of the clique that management had formed. If I had to do it all over again, I would have just been a consultant or contract employee with a year contract. Would have been paid more, would have had more write offs on my taxes, and would have had a plan.

            12 out of my 24 employees have been with the company for over 10 years. Like you indicated, I worry about their jobs.

          • 0 avatar
            bball40dtw

            [email protected] Dave!

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            This is terrible news, though when one door closes, another opens.

          • 0 avatar
            DeadWeight

            Dave in Calgary – Sorry to hear your situation, too.

            Ironically, I heard from quite a few people this past month and two people just yesterday who are in the trenches (one an in-house attorney for a commercial REIT and another who is a partner at a large accounting firm based in New York City but who works out of their Auburn Hills location that things have really slowed down and their companies have sent out a lot of pink slips lately).

          • 0 avatar
            davefromcalgary

            Worry not for me friends, I am and will be just fine. While caught off guard timing wise, I was not unprepared.

            That said its not easy. Hoping everyone lands on their feet.

          • 0 avatar

            Best of luck to you, man. You’ll land sunny side up, no doubt.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            bball, this is an opportunity for you to pursue bigger and better things.

            I’m afraid that I have done much of the same that your last employer did to you: I hired people in for their specialized skills and then let them go once I drained their brain and learned their skills.

            My guess is that the employment environment as we knew it prior to 2008, has irrevocably and irreparably changed since then.

            In my area many employers are downsizing and reducing employee hours all to avoid government mandates.

            This includes car dealerships, auto repair facilities, restaurants, the whole shooting match.

            At one restaurant yesterday my wife and I were seated by one waitress who also took our order. But another waitress served our food and drinks.

            So my wife asked what happened to our first waitress and was told, “She phased.”

            I had visions of this sweet thing being hit by a Star Trek Phazer and disappearing into thin air somewhere in the kitchen area but our new waitress explained that her four hour shift had come to an end and she had to hurry to her next job elsewhere.

          • 0 avatar
            bball40dtw

            HDC-

            I get the game and the reasons why they did it. I was making too much money now that I had fixed the productivity issues and the people. Like I said, if they hired me on a one year contact with no benefits and payed my more, I would have been all good.

          • 0 avatar
            jkross22

            Dave and bball, what do you both do?

          • 0 avatar
            bball40dtw

            I was a manager in the operations area of a large Broker-Dealer. Most of the work I did was in the mutual funds department.

          • 0 avatar
            CoreyDL

            I don’t think I ever knew you were into banking. Got yer Series 7?

          • 0 avatar
            bball40dtw

            I have my Series 99. It’s for back office Operational Professionals.

          • 0 avatar
            CoreyDL

            I hadn’t even heard of that one, ha. Far as I got was Series 6, which I only needed for a year while I worked with VA mutual funds. Got out of that position ASAP.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            BBall AND Dave?

            Damn…

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            @bball:

            Guy’s a worm, obviously. F**k him and the horse he rode in on.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            davefromcalgary – damn. Sorry to hear that. Best of luck to you too.

            A victim of low oil prices?

        • 0 avatar
          tresmonos

          f*ck man, sorry to hear that. Let me know if you see anything at my employer. I can also send you a list if that helps.

          Edit: good hunting to you too, Dave. Same offer goes to you.

        • 0 avatar
          dal20402

          Damn man. Really sorry to hear that. Hope your next good opportunity shows up quick.

        • 0 avatar
          APaGttH

          Sorry to hear this. The company I work at has recently been merged with a few other companies acquired by a major bank.

          It has been made very clear to us that we aren’t even “assets,” but a “platform” to make our billionaire investors even richer.

          Before someone replies, “what did you expect,” you weren’t in the conference room to hear what I heard and how it was delivered.

          I had thought that being in the higher rungs of income, educated, and in a field that is hard to automate and/or outsource, would not turn me into a commodity in my lifetime.

          Wall Street has a message – we are all commodities, anyone who thinks they are immune to this, beyond the 1/10 of the 1%, is lying to themselves.

          • 0 avatar
            bball40dtw

            I’m not surprised at all. That’s the way things are going. Luckily, my wife is an OT and direct patient care is very much in demand for the foreseeable future. The ACA has created costs for therapy providers, but they’ll just make 20% profit instead of 25%.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            “we are all commodities, anyone who thinks they are immune to this, beyond the 1/10 of the 1%, is lying to themselves.”

            Seems to me things have gotten much worse since 2008. Companies now focus on reducing employee expense by limiting hours and benefits.

            One of the worst offenders I have noticed are the Corner Convenience Stores where employees seem to last less than six month before being let go.

            This coincides with the six month employment requirement period before mandatory wages and benefits kick in.

          • 0 avatar
            dal20402

            If you aren’t a commodity, then it’s difficult to cut your costs, and you must be turned into a commodity.

            I’m one of maybe 100 people in the country that do what I do at a high level. What I do is almost totally about judgment and will be very hard to automate, at least in the near term. But clients still treat us as commodity service providers just like the paper supply company.

          • 0 avatar
            Willyam

            I’m sorry my friends. No platitude will help right now, I know.

            (These threads remind me of SNL’s Coffee Talk. “I’m a little verklempt, talk amongst yourselves, I’ll give you a topic…”)

            I experienced the unceremonious layoff as well (2006). We were told repeatedly NOT to sell our shares, they would bring the good days back! “We can’t give raises again this year, but just HANG IN THERE.” They blocked msg boards and tried to prevent sellout “rumors” as management cashed out. I got a thousand per year of service to start anew.

            A very wise friend once told me “Whatever a company tells you is for their own good, not yours.” This is now my lens.

          • 0 avatar
            APaGttH

            @bball

            My other half is a Dr. but her field of specialty will likely succumb to robotics as she reaches retirement. Combined we just eek into the 1% – but we see the hand writing on the wall.

            Our retirement strategy is to save every penny we can get a hold of when the last kidlet is out of the nest (2-1/2 years) and do a downsized early retirement in a tropical country that is US-expat friendly with low cost of living.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            APaGttH – “My other half is a Dr. but her field of specialty will likely succumb to robotics as she reaches retirement.”

            Ophthalmologist?

        • 0 avatar
          jhefner

          bball and Dave;

          Sorry to hear about your layoffs. I had a contract as an IT person with Southwest Airlines that was supposed to last six months, but I managed to stretch out for seven years before they let me go.

          Three months later, I was hired back for basically the same support position by an Indian firm that got it’s foot in the door with SWA. They hired me on as full-time employee; I mistakenly thought it was going to last, but I was just there to teach the off-shore staff in India how to do my work; and was let go in 18 months.

          It was nice getting paid time off and benefits; both of which I did not have for some time. But, I would not have knocked myself out so hard trying to make myself indispensable had I known it was going to happen regardless.

          Into my third year now with a firm that appreciates my skills, where I am a good fit, and that I managed to help save over a million dollars last year. Hopefully you will do better as well; best of success to you both.

        • 0 avatar
          Ryoku75

          At BB:

          The was a dumb move on their part, sorry they kinda threw you out. With the pros out the temps wont have experienced employees to help them.

          • 0 avatar
            jhefner

            If it is anything like what I experienced, management won’t care because what mattered was the bottom line; if things keep sorta limping along, all is fine. Management will be patting themselves on the back for being so smart.

        • 0 avatar
          AoLetsGo

          That sucks bball and Dave. Even when you might think it is coming it still is crappy. The one good thing is that the economy is still pretty good shape, so happy hunting.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          bball40dtw – sorry to hear. Best wishes and good luck.

  • avatar
    redliner

    In short, I approve. B&B should be enlightened passionate discourse… not the Butt-heads and the Boobs.

  • avatar
    John

    Never justify – Your friends don’t need you to do it, and your enemies will not believe you anyway.

  • avatar
    210delray

    I think we, the collective B&B, owe David Holzman and the subject of his story, Aliza, an apology. I missed the brouhaha yesterday and likely may have skipped over the article entirely if not for Mark’s later post.

    I’m appalled by what must have been said. David is well-known for his left-of-center outlook and his residence in the People’s Republic of Cambridge, Mass. But to criticize this young woman for her lifestyle choices is totally out of line. I applaud her for finding a way to make a living in Paradise (starting her own business for crying out loud), and what’s wrong with getting a trusty old car back? I’d do the same if I couldn’t afford a decent replacement.

    You made the right call, Mark.

  • avatar
    NickS

    I had to ban some people on a forum I moderated a year ago. It wasn’t an easy decision, but it helped a lot to hear from the more moderate members. I had some early signs, but didn’t take action until there was enough push-back from the users that brought the problem comments to my radar screen. Gotta love those self-regulating communities ;)

    I now moderate another forum of tech professionals. Very smart, efficient, even funny at times. Very diverse as well. And a huge bonus: no-one in that group has a stomach for partisanship and ideology. Yeah, I know, it’s boring.

    It is not very helpful to comment on users, or characterize them. They may not be bad people, just not good at expressing themselves, with few filters, or just venting based on their own experiences. The whole medium is very poor at capturing the nuances in people’s views.

    Just my 2 cents.

  • avatar
    Willyam

    @Mark, thank you for publishing that story. I know the content stream has changed a bit, but the story on the Corolla and the amazing Bugatti find are the kind of thing that gets a car nerd like me fascinated. Also, while I just talked a once-in-a-decade buyer into a CX-5, I still appreciate Jack’s opinion anyway.

    I enjoy stories of the car to owner relationship. It was about a love for a Corolla that yes, most of us wouldn’t have. I’m too fickle and trade too much (as many B&B also cop to), and I look back at many of my former cars and wish I still had them. On the other hand, here’s a woman who had every reason in the world to just snatch up a random rust-bucket, with a lifestyle that cannot afford waste or extravagance, and she spent unnecessary thousands to get a worn-out, nondescript, vanilla-flavored economy car to an island in the Pacific. It makes for a better story to me than a review of yet another hypercar I would be arrested for leaning on.

    Can you imagine Murilee-style salvage yard finds in Hawaii?

  • avatar
    omer333

    Out of curiosity, how many of you guys have a daughter? Or wife? Or girlfriend?

    I mean, would you really want someone talking about your daughter or other important woman in your life the way some of the “Best & Brightest” talk about women in the comments section?

    I come here to read about cars and talk with people about cars, not read stuff where the author or commentor has harsh things to say about a woman or women in general.

    • 0 avatar
      Zoom

      The term B&B was born out of the strict moderation during the Farago days. The less moderation there is, the more I think the term should be drowned in a bathtub.

      Farago may have been too quick with the banhammer, but if I remember correctly, he also didn’t allow ANY ad hominem comments about authors or members. Mark, I think you could be more strict, but I don’t envy the job.

      • 0 avatar
        TrailerTrash

        some times…and I am guilty of this myself many, many times… We get confused and we think nasty = brilliant.

        I am gonna try to like what everybody says first from now on. Gonna try to look at things from their perspective as hard as possible. Especially since in all likelihood, if we were all at a bar we would be a lot more fun and tolerant of each other.

        There are several folks here I disagree with insanely when they insert GOP and conservative thought into a commentary and imply this is an inherent madness or injustice. I suppose this kind of stuff should be tolerated if we are talking about policies that affect the TTAC article, but many times how it is done just sets me off because of its utter ignorance.

        Once I can get past this, I can usually enjoy what most B&B offer.

      • 0 avatar

        Robert also had a much, much smaller readership to manage. I can’t wear the managing editor hat at the same time as the police hat. It’s just too much.

    • 0 avatar
      TrailerTrash

      Think the problem here is your question caused some slanted head, puppy dog confused looks.
      Especially from those who have all three…..

    • 0 avatar
      Drzhivago138

      The term B&B is used just as often ironically as sincerely.

      • 0 avatar
        Kevin Jaeger

        “The term Best & Brightest is used just as often ironically as sincerely.”

        In the days of Farago the term wasn’t used ironically. If those days many of the commenters were real car guys who spent their time and money buying cool cars, working on cars, engaged in motorsports or worked deep in the industry.

        If some obscure topic like the steering gear in ’72 Skylark came up chances are an engineer or a someone who installed them on the line in ’72 would chime in and tell you all about them, or a racing team would say how to do a late night ghetto fix with no replacement parts available. Those types of people don’t participate much any more, so it might very well be time to retire the term “B&B”.

    • 0 avatar
      Willyam

      Good point. Daughter has been repeatedly harassed on social media for the crime of owning a pony car, which she pays for herself. I LOVE sharing her enthusiasm over cars made thirty years before she was born. The amount of trash-talking she has to take just for existing makes me realize why most of the car-shows I attend are becoming Hawaiian-shirted sausage-fests.

      • 0 avatar
        omer333

        Exactly. My daughters are 3 and 5, and I hope they like cars and motorcycles as much as I do. I hope in a few years we’ll have a house with a garage that can hold a project car or bike and we can work on it together (despite the fact I’m a lousy mechanic). I want to take them to races and tell them about how their grand’pa drove funny cars. When they learn how to drive I want it to be in a car with a manual transmission. Part of me hope they actually take up racing and are like Sabine Schmitz.

        I want them to be a part of what I think is a neat hobby.

        I don’t want them to go through what your daughter does or a lot of other women do. It ain’t right.

        • 0 avatar
          NickS

          @omer

          Being a “lousy” mechanic is a lot more fun and makes for a great dad, apparently ;)

          At least that’s what my wife says.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          I don’t have daughters but I want my 2 sons to grow up with a healthy respect for women.

          The same type of belief systems that lead to misogyny also trend to overlap with hatred towards non-traditional sexual identity and any non-traditional male behavior or past-times.

      • 0 avatar
        Chan

        Sadly, that’s the car community of the past few decades. It unwittingly guarantees its Hawaiian shirt / wifebeater / flip-flops status by the way members treat women.

    • 0 avatar
      Notadude

      omer333, I have a daughter, and I am a wife. Am I the only commenter with two X chromosomes here? It feels like I walked into the men’s bathroom by mistake sometimes. By the way, you sound like a cool dad. I had one of those too.

    • 0 avatar
      mazdaman007

      This was my thought as well.

      @Notadude – welcome.

  • avatar
    Chan

    I felt uncomfortable after one of the above named users started calling me names in an unrelated article yesterday–I thought the community here was a little more mature than that.

    Seems like there’s a pattern, after all.

  • avatar
    JD321

    I suspect most posters here suck the taxpayer tit…And/or Mommy’s.
    Best and Brightest at what? Resenting and Stealing from those who earn a living?

  • avatar
    ravenchris

    Frying pan icons on over heated posts. One to five frying pans. If you escalate you get another frying pan as a warning. Five frying pans gets you a week off. You can see it coming and cool down, or take a vacation.

  • avatar
    Zackman

    Hang ’em high, Mark!

  • avatar
    Japanese Buick

    Mark I just want to thank you for being transparent with your policing by leaving your initials in comments that you edited. I didn’t see the original comments, likely no loss, but it still gives me an idea what went on. You have had a light hand on the ban hammer which I think is the right direction, but sometimes you just have to use it.

    I would have thought that a real car guy’s first reaction to that Corolla article would have been along the lines of “wait, I can ship my Miata/BMW3er/RangeRover to Hawaii for only a grand? Sweeeet!” At least that was mine.

  • avatar
    michal1980

    so going forward only positive comments are allowed if the topic contains a certain protected demographic?

    I’d rather not have comments allowed then, then have this millennial ego protectionism in place.

    • 0 avatar
      Pch101

      You did a great job of missing the point.

      • 0 avatar
        VoGo

        Dear Abby,
        Q: I have an etiquette question as it relates to complements and cars. When is it OK to tell someone they have a “nice rack”?

        A: You may never tell a woman she has a “nice rack”, no matter their relative size, shape, buoyancy or propensity to hang. You MAY tell a man he has a nice rack, but only if you are referring to his gun rack, and are directly pointing to it. The exception to this rule is if the man in question has “moobs”, AKA man-boobs, and you are directly staring at said Moobs. Hopes this clears things up.

      • 0 avatar
        michal1980

        and that being?

        Mark himself said he moderates only when someone whines.

        SJWs general whine and want blood.

        SJWs whined in that thread and got what they wanted.

        Therefore, if a topic includes anything that might offend a SJWs you can either have comments that agree with the topic, or none at all. Because if you disagree, SJWs will flag your post, and Mark will ban you.

        • 0 avatar
          Drzhivago138

          There’s no flagging system on TTAC, but nice try.

          • 0 avatar
            michal1980

            DrZ…

            Did you read the post by Mark?

            ” if nobody complains to me directly about unruly comments, I leave them alone”

            So yes, things only get moderated here is a bunch of SJWs cry their pretty eyes out, when a big evil man says something they dont like.

            Or maybe you cant handle the truth?

          • 0 avatar
            Pch101

            Aliza is not a public citizen, nor was she the article of the piece. She’s just an ordinary person who happens to be acquainted with the author and was featured in an innocuous piece.

            If you want to rant about a public figure such as Hillary Clinton or Sabine Schmitz, then go right ahead. If Aliza was the author of the article, then it’s fair to critique her work. If Aliza had done or was accused of doing something controversial, then the controversy would be a worthy subject.

            But she is none of those things. She’s just an ordinary person who moved somewhere and had a car, and was the subject of a pleasant feature article that she did not write. You have no right to libel her or defame her character.

            On the other hand, you did write your lame comments here, so it’s fair to surmise that your parents must not be very bright to have brought something like you into the world. Perhaps you would be kind enough to provide their names and a couple of pictures so we can discuss them at length, call them names, and comment on the sort of third-rate degenerates that that would have produced trash like yourself.

            And let’s hope that their friends see the comments so that they can feel especially good about the whole thing and thank Allah that we’re not a bunch of social justice warriors who give two f**ks about how they feel.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            Interesting choices of female public figures there Pch, gave me quite a chuckle.

          • 0 avatar
            Pch101

            I was kidding about Sabine, of course. Talk smack about her, and I’ll make sure that your left knee and your clutch pedal won’t be on speaking terms.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            Does someone have a bit of a crush, mayhaps?

            I take it you saw her Bavarian barmaid outfit?

            http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/television/top-gear-sexism-storm-sabine-schmitz-is-being-criticised-for-her-clothing-choices-thats-sexist-34482327.html

        • 0 avatar
          JimZ

          who let you out of your subreddit?

        • 0 avatar
          Sloomis

          michal1980
          Wah wah SJW wah wah
          – said the MRA (see? other people can throw around pejorative acronyms too)

          When does any male (who, like Aliza, is not the author of a column) get such abuse here for no reason other than existing?

        • 0 avatar
          30-mile fetch

          “and that being?”

          Personal insults based on speculation were made against a person who was not present to defend herself, in an article not intended to be a forum on her personal life or ethics. ie. the woman’s personal life was not the “topic”.

          You might also call that a complete lack of basic manners. Those of us who were raised with some easily recognize that. The minority who weren’t apparently blame their obtuseness on social justice warriors.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            30-mile fetch – it pisses me off every time someone hides behind freedom of speech when they are an outright douchebag.

            The part that “they” do not understand is the fact that we cannot violate someone else’s rights when exercising our own.

            I just attended a lecture on bullying. The speaker wasn’t a Doctor, social worker or councillor but a lawyer who specialized in disability claims brought on by critical incident trauma.

            Personal insults, intimidation, belittling etc. can cause just as much harm as seeing a murder or mass casualty.

            Human dignity is a right which is intrinsic but also has an extrinsic component.

            You aren’t “free” to damage one’s dignity.

          • 0 avatar
            michal1980

            Lou_BC oh a lawyer said you couldnt say something because he could sue?

            Ultimate SJW your group found.

            “Personal insults, intimidation, belittling etc. can cause just as much harm as seeing a murder or mass casualty.”

            no, no they cant mr SJW

          • 0 avatar
            30-mile fetch

            michal1980,
            You really aren’t helping your case here, you are coming off as petulant and immature. Throw the SJW bomb all you want, given that you are the alternative right now I’ll gladly take on the label.

            TTAC has been very, very light on moderation and banning commenters, so your complaints ring pretty hollow around here. And the internet is full of every kind of opinion imaginable, so should you feel the need to wallow in the fecal mire of the comments that were deleted here a few days ago, you should have no trouble finding similar elsewhere. Free speech is alive and well.

          • 0 avatar
            JimZ

            “30-mile fetch – it pisses me off every time someone hides behind freedom of speech when they are an outright douchebag.”

            that’s why I like how Randall Munroe (xkcd) puts it: “citing ‘free speech’ to defend your position is the ultimate concession; the most compelling thing you can say for your position is literally that it’s not illegal to express.”

          • 0 avatar
            michal1980

            30-mile fetch

            thanks for proving my point.

            you as a SJW can only stand speech you agree with, anything that possible offends your precious little ears/eyes needs to be banned.

          • 0 avatar
            Drzhivago138

            I’m sorry, did you have anything worthwhile to add?

          • 0 avatar
            30-mile fetch

            Michal1980,
            You are inadvertently hilarious. A 2-day temper tantrum over comments you didn’t even read. Stay angry and perpetually 15, my friend. I’m sure you’ll win friends and influence people.

            Just know this about us SJWs. We never sleep. We never rest. We are in your towns, your supermarket aisles, your houses of worship, the very air you breathe and water you drink. Be sure to check your closet at night–WE WILL CENSOR YOUR DREAMS!!!! Ugh, not that I’d want to see those.

            This SJW is signing off, my precious little eyes hurt.

    • 0 avatar
      JimZ

      no, going forward the policy is “don’t be a jerk, and if you’re too much of a jerk we’ll show you the door.”

      “I’d rather not have comments allowed then, then have this millennial ego protectionism in place.”

      I like how your response is that of a petulant little boy; “if I can’t have it my way nobody can have it!”

      • 0 avatar
        michal1980

        Whats your policy? You can only comment if you have something positive to say?

        Whats the point then?
        How about just auto-generate 300 responses that say “yes sir, i agree”

        • 0 avatar
          CoreyDL

          @Jim

          I would recommend just not engaging. This is the type of person who falls off the map quickly, a temporary bother.

          • 0 avatar
            michal1980

            and what did I say that really bothers you?

            hmmm? that I disagree with moderation based on SJW whining?

            That’s on Mark, he stated that he only moderates when notified by someone.

            PS I never even seen the offending posts because they were deleted by the time I read the post.

    • 0 avatar
      Chan

      You seem to have trouble differentiating:

      A) A lifestyle that you don’t agree with, as opposed to
      B) Actually committing illegal or unethical acts that harm society.

      It is generally socially acceptable to criticise one of those. You can also, you know, do the other one, but there are, you know, consequences.

  • avatar
    Dirk Stigler

    Well that escalated quickly. My reactions to Holzman’s article were, roughly in order, she’s cute!; good for her that she’s enjoying life while she’s young; and I hope she remembers to plan ahead, unlike several unfortunate souls of my acquaintance who are 40-something and still trying to live in the remains of their 20-something lifestyle.

    None of which seemed like a useful comment to make on a story about a non-public figure who was probably not entirely enthusiastic to be written about in the first place. Apparently others felt differently. Geez, guys.

  • avatar
    Lou_BC

    I am surprised that no one mentioned that there should be a sickle with that hammer…….. since we are stifling free speech and all that sort of thing.

    Oh wait, we banned that guy.

    Sorry.

    Couldn’t resist.

  • avatar
    Driver8

    “Incredibly well written and thoughtful” is a bit much. Sure, it was a pleasant puff piece but (unlike the Van in Japan pieces) not really ‘About Cars’. You could have replaced the Corolla with another inanimate object and not change the content much. If the subject had been male, you might have gotten 20 comments, and most a variation of ‘get a job hippie’ or ‘white people problems’.
    I almost think you were purposely trolling the B&B, or else were naive at how the comment proles would respond (gratuitous cleavage shot?!). Do you even internet, bro?

  • avatar
    SOneThreeCoupe

    I’ve been trying to figure out if this is a community of which I want to be a part.

    I disagree with the method by which moderation was enacted and feel that the story was, as Driver8 says, not really about the car. Bringing the car over was a common-sense decision with a fun road trip involved.

    That it escalated as much as it did, or that most of the comments are currently fawning over the decision, cement this as not being a community of which I want to be a part. I was looking for The Fun About Cars and took a wrong turn.

    • 0 avatar
      Chan

      Would you like to clarify which aspect of this community you dislike?

      The part where an article was more about a person than a car?

      Or the part where people were banned for posting foul personal insults?

      Did you see some of the original comments? They made me wonder if these are 13 year olds with no friends at school. I hate removing original content, but some of them really needed to get obliterated with a Tsar Bomba.

      • 0 avatar
        highdesertcat

        Interesting comment by SOneThreeCoupe who took the time to write about his decision to no longer belong to the ttac community.

        I am wondering how many people just left without offering an observation or comment like SOneThreeCoupe did.

        Furthermore, if all the people who left voluntarily, because they were disgusted with the comments on ttac, were “good” members of this community, how do we get them back?

        And why are other commenters allowed to advocate their political, environmental, pro-union and/or homosexual agenda without repercussions or fear of being banned for life when such blatant activism rubs other commenters the wrong way and elicits commentary retorts risking being banned for life?

        • 0 avatar
          Drzhivago138

          Please provide examples of when this happened.

          • 0 avatar
            Drzhivago138

            I need to thank you for reminding me that the two of us are very rarely diametrically and vehemently opposed on any topic, and that I’m more often than not just playing devil’s advocate to you, and you to me.

            So yes, thank you, HDC.

            [Edit: This should be at the bottom.]

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            You’re welcome. I always value your comments.

            I’ve learned a lot from many on ttac and actually used what I learned in the lesson plans for the sales staff at the dealerships owned by my brothers over the years.

            I gotta go. I’ve got some calls to take care of.

            There’s nothing like helping our foreign military renters get what they need from Domino’s, Pizza Hut, Chili’s, Applebee’s or whatever else they need help with.

        • 0 avatar
          30-mile fetch

          HDC, in response to your last paragraph, I don’t think people were banned for expressing a political opinion. They were banned for personally attacking someone not here on this board to defend themselves. As Mark wrote:

          “With the additional factor of the person in David’s story not being here to defend herself…”

          That’s the difference to me. People express strong political opinions of all stripes all the time around here without moderation, sometimes even attacking each other personally. Just a few weeks ago, one of the posters in question responded to another with something like “put a gun to your colon and blow your brains out”. That’s a pretty screwed up thing to write, but it wasn’t moderated or censored.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            30-mile fetch, what people write can evoke emotional responses which can easily go beyond “screwed up thing to write.”

            I think things finally got out of hand and Mark had to step in. I agree with that. He did the right thing. Maybe we should police ourselves and identify offensive comments.

            And if Drzhivago138 would take the time to read ALL of the comments on every ttac thread since the beginning of time, he would find that other commenters crossed the line much sooner in different articles on earlier dates.

            BS was ahead of his time.

            Maybe those among us should review the FAQ of ttac. Maybe those with their own agenda should curb their activism because, obviously, some of the more casual readers don’t appreciate their comments or the replies they garner.

            Remember that lost eyeballs can’t make money for the advertisers. There is no free lunch.

          • 0 avatar
            Drzhivago138

            So I ask for examples and you say “just go look for them yourself”? There’s this little thing called “burden of proof…”

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            Drzhivago138, don’t worry about it. If you reject it, I don’t have a problem with it.

            I’d like to see ttac remain up and running. I’ve been on ttac since the days of Farago and have seen the MSN autoboard go down, and the Yahoo autoboard, and even an excellent site such as blogs.cars.com/kickingtires.

            SOneThreeCoupe offered an interesting take on his decision to leave and maybe if we were all more considerate then banning would no longer be necessary.

            Too many trolls and flamers here as of late.

            But that’s just my opinion, and I’m not on nearly as much as I used to be – only like when I’m tied to a PC or phone for the Help Desk Duty during Girls Night Out.

            Like tonight.

          • 0 avatar
            CoreyDL

            Ohh, MSN Autos. I remember when you could still comment on their articles. They banned me. All the sudden it would always say “Your comment cannot be submitted at this time, please try again later.”

            They didn’t like when I would point out the huge factual mistakes in their articles. That was me only offense. But when you publish stupid crap like “The Ford Taurus was the first sedan in the world to have flush glass.” I’ma correct you.

          • 0 avatar
            30-mile fetch

            Alright, I think I see where you’re coming from now, HDC. Thanks for explaining it. And you’ve always been one of the civil and respectable ones around here.


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