Dispatches Do Brasil: A Five Star Brazilian-Built Ford

There's also a difference between modern cars built on up to date platforms and older cars built on platforms from days gone by. Luckily, in Brazil at least, we are getting the most modern platforms and de-contentment happens on sound proofing, simpler wiring harnesses for cars with less processing demands etc. The case of the Sandero mentioned above in some comments is a good example. It had had enough structural rigidity to outdo a lesser built car. As explained on a previous articles, accidents happen a lot, more road deaths than in first world countries. From all I know, talking to factory people, engineering professors etc. most modern Brazilian cars are at least as structurally sound as their European counterparts. Construction techniques are not changed in order to save a buck (save a few more or less robots here or there). A buck is saved on what we could call the add ons to the car. Therein lies one of the reasons that I don't fear construction of Brazilian cars.

@Marcelo de Vasconcellos The Latin American Sandero blew the test. And the Latin NCAP test is easier than the Euro NCAP. Safety requires structural reinforcement, and the cars sold in Latin America don't get the same level of reinforcement. Those reinforcements cost money, and automakers don't always provide them to the Latin American market, as local regulations don't require them. ________ Not only does the Brazilian model (of the Sandero) have no air bags, but expert testers found ***its body shell did not have the same strength as the European model*** and cannot cope effectively with a full-frontal crash. What that means in practice is the body structure started to give way at impact. The European model retains its integrity under the same conditions. The difference is significant. In the crash test in Brazil, the steering wheel and facia comes right up against the driver, and the lack of an airbag makes this even worse. http://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/renault-one-star-latin-crash-test-ncap ________ Your position is simply factually wrong. Latin NCAP is a credible organization, and it points out that the structures are not the same.

Pch101, You're not wrong Pch. But you're in that area that sometimes I think you have trouble getting out of, something like missing the forest for the trees (or is it the other way around?). For example, the Brazilian new Fiesta will not score as high as the Mexican built one for a rollover test. Why? Brazilian cars don't have to follow the tougher American standards for that. So the Brazilian Fiesta does not use the special steels the Mexican one does in the columns and roof of the car. Does that make the Brazilian Fiesta less safe than the Mexican one? Yes. Does it make the Brazilian Fiesta unsafe? No. It follows Brazilian legislation that as I explain below follows American or European standards. The official word from Anfavea (the makers association) is more or less as follows. They said Brazilian built cars are safe. They must respect a Brazilian rule that takes into account the European or American rules, that the maker has the choice to do it in a series of accredited labs in Brazil or abroad. Finally, they must pass in order to be sold. Anfavea also said that while they respect Latin NCAP and its methodology, the methodology is different which leads to different results. http://carplace.virgula.uol.com.br/anfavea-se-manifesta-a-respeito-doans-testes-do-gm-agile-e-renault-clio-no-latinncap/ Reading Latin NCAP's comments on the Sandero crash, it's clear that the impact on the driver dummy's head was light while the passenger was well protected. The driver's feet would also have survived but the steering column moved more than ideal. Unofficially, people I talked to found the results "strange". They said they had expected the car to make at least 2 stars and with the airbags it would have easily made 3. Compare that with Agile and Clio crashes. Those cars got zero. Why? Because they sit on old platforms. Not the case with the Sandero, Logan, March or Versa (which all sit on pretty much the same platform). The problem with Latin NCAP and others is that they have a recipe and to get rewarded you must follow that recipe. "Proof" is the Malibu. It got 1 star for child protection while EcoSport and HB20 got three. How can that be? The Malibu follows American standards and Latin NCAP uses European standards. Does that mean a child is less protected in a Malibu than in a small Hyundai sedan specifically designed for Brazilians? I have trouble believing that. So, the Sandero did not do well. Renault is doing something wrong. I eagerly await the next rounds of tests. If Renault does badly again, now woth airbags, we can call the car unsafe. For the moment I, and I do mean I, with what I have been able to gather, believe the Sandero/Logan/Duster are safe enough. They are built on a world platform that gets sold the world over. I have no qualms putting my 2 and a half year old everyday into a Logan. Does my son have the best protection in the world? Hardly, but I think he has as much protection as I can afford and I believe he is is more protected in that car than in some other cars sold in Brazil that sit on 20 yr old platforms.

@Marcelo de Vasconcellos These Latin American cars don't meet European standards, which themselves are generally below American standards. Adding airbags to the Latin American cars alone won't raise them to meet European standards. Your assertion that safety equipment is the only difference is factually wrong. The cars aren't built to the same standard.

@Marcelo de Vasconcellos Pch101, so you say, and I say otherwise. Guess we'll have to leave it at that until the next tests show whether or not Brazilian cars that will all have, by law, airbags (double, frontal) and abs next year. It'll be interesting to watch. BTW, the Kombi was axed because even with the airbags it wouldn't be able to comply with the new standards. Along with the airbags and ABS, new safety standards are going to be applied. The old Fiat Uno is another one that no one knows whether or not will make the cut. Look for Chevy Celta, Agile and Classic, Fiat Uno Palio Fire, among others to have trouble meeting the standards even with airbags. Those like Logan, Sandero, new Uno, in other words, those that sit on current platforms to get at least an acceptable rating. If they don't, I'll be sure to write an article proclaiming myself wrong and you right. Just so you know, you're not alone in your position. Many in Brazil partake of your views.

@Pch101/DiM I have discussed with you on this forum exactly what you are arguing now. I even provided links from the Latin NCAPs and WHO (World Health Organisation) that discusses the future movement of the less 'wealthy' countries and challenges they are faced with to meet these standards. Brazil will not overnight reach ANCAP, JNCAP, ENCAP standards. This will take time. But, all countries globally, including the Chinese have accepted and will become compliant to the global standards. This means in Brazil you can import from any country that is UNECE harmonised. The US is out on its own. Even the Canadian's are looking more carefully at what direction they are heading in. The problem is the impact of the Big 3 primarily in Ontario. You must learn to differentiate between compliance and seeking compliance down the track. Brazil and every other so called developing nation are aligning themselves to become compliant to the UNECE standards. Once they reach this and produce vehicles that meet these standards the vehicles can be exported. American Exceptionalism, UAW and other paradigms you have makes it awkward for you to have a reasonable debate. DiM/Pch101, I think the phone is ringing at the UAW call centre. It's Sergio wanting to know about Chrysler's VEBA ;) Answer it.

@Marcelo de Vasconcellos "so you say, and I say otherwise." Latin NCAP and others who devote their professional lives to automotive safety are telling you what I'm telling you. My position comes from them and their research. If you have a compelling, factually-based counterargument to the body of evidence, then provide it.

@Marcelo de Vasconcellos Yes, many of the people who work at Latin NCap devote their lives to this. As do the people who work in Euro NCap, or the American equivalent. I have no doubt these organizations are serious and respectable. However, as with all other such organizations, they defend a point of view. A POV that is not necessarily, 100%, unquestionably correct. Warning sticker, EcoSport 5 stars, no warning sticker the exact same car gets 4. Does that make sense? Does it make sense the Malibu gets one star? On the other hand we have the other people involved. The people in the business I talked to, the professors, even the bureaucrats. They are earnest and do what they can in that area too. Of course they have an economic interest, but so does Latin NCap. Balancing this information leads me to the conclusion that like Big Al said, we do have a ways to go, but we're getting there. I feel confident that Brazilian cars built off a modern, global platform are comparable to their counterparts elsewhere. It's a matter of opinion of course.

@Marcelo Only my protagonists call me BAFO.

@Marcelo de Vasconcellos "I feel confident that Brazilian cars built off a modern, global platform are comparable to their counterparts elsewhere." I asked for a factually based argument, not your feelings. Incidentally, safety isn't merely dictated by a platform. "It’s a matter of opinion of course." No, it isn't just a matter of opinion. The cars are built to a lower standard, and crash tests reveal at least some of those differences. To raise the standard, you need to either (a) change the laws and/or (b) raise consumer awareness so that they demand improved safety standards. Fooling yourselves into believing that you're already at the same level as the Europeans will only compromise your path to progress, since you are exaggerating how much progress has been made. National pride is not a substitute for structural reinforcement and side impact protection.

@Marcelo de Vasconcellos Big Al, Text amended, sorry for that!

@Marcelo de Vasconcellos Yes Pch101, you are again right. But we're running in circles here, like happens frequently in debates with you. You are kinda of like that guy who looks at the GTR's numbers and say that it's the best car in the world, while ignoring that subjectively it is not. I tried to point out to you my reasoning to you. I accept and take into consideration Latin NCap's numbers, but I also take into account other things I hear and see. I can think for myself. Another analogy: CR. I can read. I see CR. I can respect their methodology and I'm forced to recognize them. That however does not mean that they are by any stretch of the imagination a major factor when I decide what car to buy. As to national pride, I regret having used the word proud in the text. It was more than a little forced. A better would have been happy. You have been on the site a long time. You will remember the many times I have disparaged against my country and countrymen. I don't have blinders and I barely consider myself nationalistic. But I'm rather proud, or happy, of the steps we've taken over the couple of decades. I came back to Brazil in the mid 80s after having lived abroad many, many years. To be frank, I was quite taken aback. Nowadays, while the shocking and appalling are still very much a part of our everyday life, I can see many of the improvements that have been made over the years. The improvements in cars is just one of them. But yeah, to cut to the chase I have no "facts". Just my experience, sensibility and intelligence to offer what I have stated in this article. Feel free to discard it and hold on to what you consider facts.

@Pch101/DiM Are the current US vehicle safety standards below par with the ENCAP based standards? The US has a much higher fatality rate than most ENCAP, ANCAP, JNCAP members. So why doesn't the US adopt the global standards? Brazilian Latin NCAP standards do not yet meet ENCAP as the Brazilians are in the process of reaching that goal. You seem to forget not everyone has the resources, ie, money available to implement these standards overnight. Current US safety standards are higher for US manufactured vehicles than in Brazil. But once the Brazilian Latin Standards are met they will be on par with US and the better global standards. Thailand is currently manufacturing pickups that are safer than any US manufactured pickup, even though Thailand is a developing nation. The differences are marginal, but all the same they are of a higher standard. But, the Thai's export to OECD economies. What will help Brazil is to develop and export market to wealthy OECD economies like the Thai's do. That will speed up the process for the Brazilians to receive safer vehicles. The Chinese will also have these problems, but when the Chinese start to manufacture cars like cordless drills then they will become complaint.

@Marcelo de Vasconcellos "I tried to point out to you my reasoning to you." You haven't offered much more than a few hunches. In the process, you've ignored the considerable body of evidence that proves you wrong.

@DiM/Pch101 Latin NCAP is in its infancy. Not one Latino nation actually reaches the standards that will be on par with ENCAP. Latin American nations are in the process of improving their standards as was pointed out in the WHO article I posted on this site several months ago. The process of improvement of vehicle safety started in 2010 in Latin American countries and is being phased in, hence the removal of the VW Kombi. This is no different than the US with it's gradual phase in of CAFE regulations. How hard is it for you to realise this. Brasil doesn't have the resources to implement the ENCAP standards overnight. The people of Brazil don't have the income to afford these safety features as well. Look at the debate with some logic. The US vehicle is safe and better than the current offerings from Brasil. But you will see a gradual implementation of safer vehicles being produced over the next decade or two coming out of Brazil. The US will eventually improve its vehicle design standards also and come in and join the ENCAP and other global standards.