By on October 3, 2013

stonecold

Last week, a group of motorcyclists “boxed in” a Range Rover on the freeway, apparently so they could “shut down” the road as part of a larger celebration. Alexian Lien, the Rover’s driver, struck a motorcyclist who brake-checked him; afterwards, he was chased into the city, dragged from his vehicle, and beaten savagely in front of his wife and two-year-old daughter. The District Attorney for NYC has elected not to prosecute the biker who allegedly smashed Lien’s window and dragged him out of the car for the beating, causing outrage around the country.

Now, new information has come out suggesting that the city may be willing to effectively cede control of its streets to those same bikers.

The Post is reporting that NYPD officers have been told not to pursue biker gangs due to community-safety concerns. “The department also doesn’t have the manpower to police the rogue riders, who get together for pop-up outings and often use unregistered bikes.” This will not be reassuring to New Yorkers who have just watched one of their own take a beating from these bikers — particularly since Mr. Lien, with his Range Rover, his Columbia University education, and his job working for Credit Suisse, appears on the surface at least to be one of the “insulated” Manhattanites who have largely been sheltered from the city’s criminals since the beginning of the Giuliani administration.

While there are certainly sound reasons for a “no-pursuit” policy, and they have been discussed on TTAC in the past, offering a blanket policy exemption to motorcyclists engaged in intimidating or criminal behavior is likely to embolden people who, at least in a few cases, feel that it is completely justified to brutally assault a man in front of his two-year-old daughter. Slate, on the other hand, has taken this opportunity to shift some blame to the victim and argue that this was not a biker gang but rather a bunch of fun-loving stunt riders who should be handled lightly. Regardless of that rather nice distinction, the public is already demanding some effective action from the NYPD — and deciding to let bikers go as a matter of policy is unlikely to impress them.

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249 Comments on “Are New York Biker Gangs Above The Law?...”


  • avatar
    Kenmore

    And you can’t even have a gun there.

    • 0 avatar

      The sad thing is, people have harrassed OFF-DUTY cops like this (some which I know of) and they’ve pulled their guns out (brandished) and the people who were harrassing them AUTOMATICALLY back off.

      This is why I am pro-2nd amendment.

      The White Motorcycle driver caused the entire thing. They had NO RIGHT to box this man and his family in and he had EVERY RIGHT to feel threatened and RUN THEM DOWN. He did exactly what I’d have done with my JEEP SRT, except I’d have left more bodies in my wake.

      I WISH TO GOD he’d had a gun on him because the shootings that day would have served as a warning to the next ten thousand generations of bikers: DO NOT BRAKE CHECK MY JEEP.

      And you wanna mess with me when my baby and my wife are in the car?

      really????

      BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG

      • 0 avatar
        bunkie

        How many bullets would you need to carry to deal with 40 or 50 angry bikers? That’s the flaw in this logic. Then there’s the possibility that one or more of these bozos is armed themselves.

        No, the solution is for the police to box these guys in, when possible, and arrest them. At the very least, use all those wonderful public-watching technologies to identify them.

        Unfortunately, I’m not happy about this situation. I’ve run into (figuratively, not literally) these hooligans and it’s seriously frightening. Once I was riding on the Belt Parkway with my wife on the back of my sportbike and they were trying to get me to join in the “fun”.

        Although I’m somewhat loath to suggest this, the cops need to aggressively ticket bikers with 1) loud pipes (even if they’re off-duty cops) and 2) obvious attempts to hide license plates. The price, of course, is for those of us who ride responsibly to be abused at the hands of the cops, but there are limits and the rule of law must not be allowed to decay.

        And lest you jump to conclusions, I’m a strong supporter of the Second Amendment. I just have serious doubts that pulling a gun would have de-escalated the violence.

        • 0 avatar

          HIGH CAPACITY MAGAZINE and body armor

          • 0 avatar
            bunkie

            This is why I love the Internet. Everybody’s a great shot and every possible outcome is known.

          • 0 avatar
            CCH

            bigtrucks you crack me up, i bet you really believe that as well! let me get this straight so a white Manhattanite driving around in his range rover should be carrying a gun with a high capacity magazine and body armour?? Where the hell is this place, south Sudan??

          • 0 avatar
            Astigmatism

            Don’t forget, CCH, his wife and small child should also be wearing their body armor. At all times. Just in case they get swarmed by FIFTY BIKERS and daddy’s trigger finger gets itchy. But don’t worry, none of them will have a gun, because only good guys have guns, except when bad guys have guns and good guys stop them with their guns.

          • 0 avatar
            APaGttH

            Ya, because when I climb into my Hummer H2 SUT, I make sure the .50 caliber in the bed is fully loaded, I slip on my body armor and helmet, and load up the AR-15. You know, for the trip to the grocery store, You should see my daughter on the .50 – she can take out a motorcycle at 300 meters while moving at 70 MPH.

            GET SOME!!!!!!!

        • 0 avatar
          Astigmatism

          “The only thing that can stop 50 bad guys with guns is a good guy with a gun,” apparently.

          Hope you’re driving an armor-plated HMMWV with a minigun, bigtrucks. And maybe a flamethrower.

        • 0 avatar
          parabellum2000

          Its no guarantee, but even if you have 50 guys with you, you don’t want to be the first one to die.

          If he pointed the gun at the first guy to approach his family they might have backed off.

          On the other hand they might have opened up with guns of their own. No guarantee, but I’d rather have more self defense options than less.

          Also, the range rover is far more deadly than any hand gun. If had the intention of killing bikers, he could have killed a couple dozen pretty easily.

          • 0 avatar

            “Its no guarantee, but even if you have 50 guys with you, you don’t want to be the first one to die.

            If he pointed the gun at the first guy to approach his family they might have backed off. ”

            You needn’t point the gun…you can brandish it and get a response. Thing is with NO WEAPON AT ALL he ended up getting pummeled.

            You are absolutely right – You don’t want to be first to die and you have no idea what those animals will do to your family.

            CARRY CONCEALED.

        • 0 avatar
          old5.0

          It only takes one. Put a bullet in somebody’s melon, and the other 49 quickly become less interested in being the next to find out if there really is an afterlife.

          • 0 avatar
            The Soul of Wit

            Very Sun Tzu. To paraphrase, put a bullet hole in one to discourage the remaining 49….

          • 0 avatar
            dolorean

            Yeah…let me draw my GAT and pop a few rounds at these beotches whilst my wife and daughter look lovingly at me in my manly pride! Of course these biker guys wouldn’t be packin’, right?! And I’d have enough bullets and reload time to get all of them before they overwhelmed me and my family. Course, cause only me and my gunz will make this right.

            You have to assume theyre packing, if youre packing.

            This story, as compelling and awful it seems, we have no idea what caused this other than an assumption. Seriously, what would drive anyone to this sad, degredation of our society. I would also assume that someone in the car had a cell-phone to call 911 but failing that, would be able to find a Police station or cop somewhere in the vicinity of where this happened. But maybe I’m thinking rationally.

          • 0 avatar

            @dolorean

            They did call 911 five or six times.

            As for what to do under tehse circumstances, soemthing I read suggested they should have remained on the highway, going slowly, that the m’cycles couldn’t have stopped them without endangering themselves, and going slowly would have made it easier for the cops to catch up.

        • 0 avatar
          Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

          You’re right, I need to upgrade my car gun. My Glock 19 with 3x17rd extended mags and an extra 33rd oughta do it, though there won’t be room in there for the manuals..

        • 0 avatar

          The Post makes some good points about the difficulty of cracking down.

          “The department has ordered cops not to chase after large biker groups like the one that beat a driver near the West Side Highway because of the risk that innocent bystanders or the riders will be killed, law-enforcement sources told The Post.

          “The people who are doing this aren’t stopping when police try to pull them over,” one source said, noting that the bikers can simply jump sidewalks and mow down pedestrians to flee cops.”

          But that doesn’t mean they do’nt need to figure out a way to crack down.

          It’s possible that the decision not to prosecute the one rider (at least for now) is part of a strategy to try to get him to cooperate and identify the others.

        • 0 avatar
          afedaken

          No need for the gun as Mr. Lien already demonstrated. The jeep would be sufficient.

          But I think BigTruck is right on the deterrent angle however. A discreet brandish is often enough to avoid trouble.

        • 0 avatar
          TomHend

          The push in America should be for the legalization in repealing the sawed off shotgun and rifle illegal laws passed a generation ago.

          These are the best defensive weapons there were ever produced in double barrels or pumps.

          The same for the Winchester lever actions.

          • 0 avatar
            raph

            An AA-12 would be a better option provided you can get your hands on one.

          • 0 avatar
            05lgt

            Street Sweeper FTW yo! but, how many people is it OK to kill to prevent a beating? I don’t know the answer and am pretty sure I’d do my best to kill them all with the Rover or the AK, I just don’t like that about myself.

        • 0 avatar
          Carzzi

          “How many bullets would you need to carry to deal with 40 or 50 angry bikers?”
          My .45 magnum only holds six. Question is, which six of you want to meet your maker?

      • 0 avatar
        mr.cranky

        @bigtrucksreview- I don’t think that you’re thinking rationally here.

        And I say that because I know a woman who lost her life last week because she confronted a man who cut her off at a red light and he shot her dead.

        He had 3 guns in his car at the time. He was suicidal and probably would have killed a few more people if he had not been caught.

        Her brother and her family are devastated by this loss.

        The man who killed her? He was having a “bad day”.

        Now, how many more people that are having “bad days” do we need on the road with firearms at arm’s reach?

        It’s getting harder to defend the 2nd amendment.

        • 0 avatar

          ” I know a woman who lost her life last week because she confronted a man who cut her off at a red light and he shot her dead.”

          My aunt has a .38 in a belly pack and she confronts anyone who in any way acts antagnoistic to herself or her two adopted sons. She’s still alive.

          I have two uncles who both carry service revolvers and I’ve seen them pull out when threatened on the road. They are still here.

          I honestly think more guns is the only way to deal with criminals with guns – and criminals without guns who threaten law-abiders.

          We need to ARM WOMEN in those 3rd world countries so they can fend off rape and fend off attackers. You try to throw ACID IN MY FACE??? I BLOW YOURS OFF!

          I feel attempted “kidnappings” need to devolve into gun fights.

          Attempted rape becomes a bullet in the head.

          If law abiding people are ARMED there will be less crime because the armed criminals have no way of watching their back. EVERY SINGLE MASS SHOOTING takes place in a gun control environment. You NEVER see mass shooters attacking ARMED MEN.

          The army base and naval base shootings both happened in gun control zones.

          I want it to be a situation where the shooter is under CONSTANT ATTACK and I want them to be KILLED IN ACTION so my tax dollars can go to MORE IMPORTANT things (such as Superchargers and car mods) rather than housing these scumbags in cable-ready, clean, neat, pristine jail cells.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            “so my tax dollars can go to MORE IMPORTANT things (such as Superchargers and car mods) rather than housing these scumbags in cable-ready, clean, neat, pristine jail cells”

            Priorities.

          • 0 avatar
            WheelMcCoy

            @bigtruckseriesreview

            All interesting and possible outcomes. I think about the 2012 Aurora shooting during the midnight screening of The Dark Knight Rises.

            Imagine good samaritan #1, upon hearing the shots from the gunman, pulls his own gun and shoots back. Good samaritan #2 hears shots from two sources and thinks “there are two of them!” He pulls his gun and shoots good samaritan #1.

            The real gunman, protected with body armor (he really was), is now furious that anyone would dare shoot back. He unleashes his full arsenal and the death toll rises dramatically.

            This outcome is just as likely, or even more likely, than your scenarios. Once everyone is armed, the more determined ones will escalate.

        • 0 avatar
          Siorus

          @mr.cranky: “I know a woman who lost her life last week because she confronted a man who cut her off at a red light and he shot her dead.
          (…)
          Now, how many more people that are having “bad days” do we need on the road with firearms at arm’s reach?

          It’s getting harder to defend the 2nd amendment.”

          I’m sorry to hear about your friend. Losing someone is never easy, and it’s worse when it’s due to someone else’s actions. However. I don’t think that *you’re* thinking rationally here. Your anecdote and your reaction are entirely emotional. In your position, that’s absolutely justifiable. Understand, however, that emotion cannot be allowed to dictate social policy.

          Throughout human history, emotion has been the tool weilded to bring popular support to unjust causes. The internment of Japanese-American citizens during WW2-that’s an emotional response. The people that have targeted Sikhs and Muslims because of 9/11-that’s an emotional response. The people that harass others for their race, their appearance, their beliefs, their sexuality-whatever reason they choose to latch onto. The demonization of “the enemy” in every theatre of war going back to the beginnings of human history. And yes, the knee-jerk response to meddle in the lives of law-abiding citizens because of a tragic event that ultimately affects a very small number of people. All of it is driven by emotion.

          Emotion must be kept under the strict control of logic; allowed to run free, it is the enemy of freedom and individualism, and indeed, the enemy of the principles that define America as a country-you know, that whole “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” thing.

          So. Let’s put emotion aside for a moment and re-frame this whole mess surrounding the gun debate in this country with logic holding the leash.

          The CDC documented 18,090 deaths for the year 2011 due to Pneumonitis-i.e. lung inflammation. That was the 15th leading cause of death in the US that year, behind Parkinson’s (14th, 23,107 deaths), Diabetes (7th, 73,282 deaths), Alzheimer’s (6th, 84,691 deaths), and heart disease (1st, 596,339 deaths).(1) The CDC does not include car accidents explicitly in their chart-although there is a generalized “accidents” category, which ranked 5th-but the NHTSA documented 32,367 traffic fatalities for 2011.(2)

          By way of comparison, the FBI documented a total of 12,664 homicides in 2011, of which 8,583 were related to firearms.(3)(A) And this is in a country with a population estimated at 311,591,917 (the U.S. Census Bureau’s provisional estimate as of July 1st, 2011 based on the actual documented count of 309,330,219 people from the 2010 census).(4) That’s less than 0.003%!

          Of those 8,583 homicides, 1,824 were documented to be gang-related.(5) It is important to note, however, that “nearly half of law enforcement agencies report they do not regularly record any criminal offenses as ‘gang-related’”, and that there is no standard or consensus for what constitues a gang-related homicide.(6) Thus, the actual number of gang-related homicides is likely to be much higher.

          Let’s take it at face value, though, and knock another 1,824 off of that 8,583; that’s 6,759 homicides for the year 2011 that may or may not be related to gang violence. Going by the Census Bureau’s population estimate, that’s less than 0.0022%. Roughly 2 people per 100,000. I’m not cherry picking this data; I’ve cited my sources (at the end of the post), this information is all from government documents.

          And this is before we get into issues like how many of those murders would actually have been prevented if the responsible party didn’t have access to a firearm, or how many of the responsible parties were already banned from having firearms under existing rules that are not enforced properly, variations based on demographics and geography or a thousand other variables.

          The idea that guns are a major issue in America is hysteria, with the government and the media both feeding it by playing on peoples’ emotions and the human brain’s natural inability to handle large numbers well.

          What happened to your friend is tragic, and you have my sincere condolences. I mean it. I know what it’s like to lose someone, and I feel for you. Dispense with the emotion, though, and all of the arguments in favor of more regulation of firearms in this country fall by the wayside.

          It is impossible to keep everyone safe all of the time. Your odds of being killed by a gun in the US are vanishingly small, and the right of law-abiding citizens to defend themselves by any means necessary and with deadly force if-God forbid-it’s ever required, trumps the irrational, emotionally-driven need to “feel safe” with virtually zero basis in reality that has been inflicted on so much of this country by our own news media.

          Footnotes:
          (A) Someone may come along and try to discredit me by pointing out that the source I cite for the 2011 population estimate gives a count of 14,612 murders versus the 12,664 in the source I used for my calculations. The disparity is due to the fact that the larger number includes both murder and “nonnegligent manslaughter”, while the second number is homicide only. I I did not find a breakdown of the cause of death in the 1,948 cases that make up the difference; thus, I cannot derive meaningful information from calculations made with the larger number.

          Sources:
          (I’ve had issues with links in posts at TTAC in the past, thus you’ll have to google these if you want to fact check me)

          (1) Hoyert, Donna L., Ph.D., and Jiaquan Xu, M.D. CDC National Vital Statistics Reports. 61.6 (2012): 4

          (2) “Early Estimate of Motor Vehicle Traffic Fatalities for The First Nine Months (January-September) of 2012″ Traffic Safety Facts DOT# HS 811 706. 2012: 1

          (3) “Expanded Homicide Data Table 8.” Crime in The United States 2011. FBI (dot) gov, 10/3/13

          (4) “Table 1.” Crime in The United States 2011. FBI (dot) gov, 10/3/13

          (5) “Measuring the Extent of Gang Problems.” National Youth Gang Survey Analysis. nationalgangcenter (dot) gov, 10/3/13

          (6) “Are gang homicides increasing?” Frequently Asked Questions About Gangs. nationalgangcenter (dot) gov, 10/3/13

          • 0 avatar
            jjklongisland

            Very well said. This needs to be in one of those chain emails that goes around the country… Bravo

          • 0 avatar
            LuciferV8

            Bravo!

            This is perhaps one of the most well researched and thought-out posts I’ve ever seen on TTAC.

            I was in agreement with your thesis from the get-go, but I have to say that even if I were on the opposing side, your post would leave me with a lot to consider.

      • 0 avatar
        28-Cars-Later

        “He did exactly what I’d have done with my JEEP SRT, except I’d have left more bodies in my wake.”

        I can hear the Law and Order music starting.

      • 0 avatar
        Stumpaster

        The level of your stupidity is really unbearable.

      • 0 avatar
        Piston Slap Yo Mama

        While it would be impolite to call you, Big-Trucks, a “moron” – and also perhaps against TTAC commenting policy, I do believe it’s entirely permissible to note that your sentiments are moronic.

        • 0 avatar

          I intend to be the last man standing. Moronic or not, I’ve survived 32 years. In a TOUGH city.

          There is WISDOM in old age.

          I’m a strict Darwinist and I truly believe in survival of the fittests. It’s no wonder the vehicles I choose are predatory in nature. Big, fast, powerful and able to mow down or plow through lessser species.

          • 0 avatar
            jonsey

            These comments are so over the top they have to be trolling.

          • 0 avatar
            Piston Slap Yo Mama

            Social Darwinism was used to justify the enslavement of Africans and the gassing of Jews, among others. To trot that out as your dearly held philosophy is disgusting. Even Malcolm X as he matured and acquired wisdom renounced violent reprisals, to say nothing of Martin Luther Kings’s insistence on nonviolence. You would be well served to read up on Ghandi and stop crowing about gladly shooting people and stoking your predatory BS persona.

            When alien intelligence finally do contact us I fear they’ll preemptively wipe our species out to prevent the spread of people like you. Seriously – no kidding at all.

            On a different note, when I read your comments I actually find myself missing Bertel…

    • 0 avatar

      On a side note: I’ve never been as impressed with a RANGE ROVER as I was after seeing that incident. TTAC needs to do a review on the Range Rover IMMEDIATELY.

      If you want: I’ll do it…

    • 0 avatar
      SuburbanGentleman

      I think this is a case where we need ALL the facts before making a hasty judgment. What happened prior to the “brake check” action? Did the RR try to cut off the bikers? or vice versa? No, that doesn’t justify ANY violence, but may explain the mindset of all the parties involved.

      I am a life long motorcycle rider. My grandfather was an Indian motorcycle dealer and my father was a Harley-Davidson dealer. That being said, I too get pissed when a crotch rocket goes speeding 100 mph+ BETWEEN lanes of traffic! When that idiot gets himself killed, the media will be all about how dangerous motorcycles are (implying ALL motorcycles), and will not mention that this nut case was suicidal!

      I also get extremely pissed when anyone tried to “brake check” me! It is all I can do to control my temper when that happens. I’m willing to bet most people feel the same way.

      In this case, we don’t really know all that occurred. Did the RR occupants have cell phones? Bet they did!! So why not call 911 and get police help, rather than run over several bikers and paralyzing one person for life? A beating resulting in cuts and scratches is a relatively small price to pay for paralyzing a person.

      Let’s hear from one of the bikers and get the other side of the story before we pass judgment on this case.

      • 0 avatar
        dude500

        He did call 911….

        and now I doubt 911 will be effective with this new NYPD policy:

        Driver: I’ve got a hundred bikers smashing in my windows! and my wife and kid are in the car!

        911: Oh, we have a policy of not pursuing motorcycle incidents.

      • 0 avatar
        Kyree S. Williams

        It’s good to hear someone’s insight that is a member of both parties.

      • 0 avatar

        It is REASONABLE to believe that the entire incident was provoked by the BRAKE CHECK INCIDENT. Up until that point, the RR was driving regularly and the bikers were BEHAVING REGULARLY – which is to say, they were making their way around him. The BEST POSSIBLE SOLUTION would be if one motorcylist directed the others to PASS HIM ON THE LEFT. This whole fiasco could have been avoided.

        INSTEAD, they decide to brake check him and HOLD UP ALL THE LANES.

        • 0 avatar
          Pch101

          It would be reasonable for you to go easy on the CAPS LOCK.

          I know that you want to generate hits for your YouTube channel, but try just once to have some basic etiquette.

      • 0 avatar

        The guy’s wife called 911 five times.

        If you believe the Range Rover tried to cut off the bikers before the brake-checking,

        A bridge o’er to Brooklyn’s incredibly swell
        and to you, for just 200 dollars, I’ll sell.

        The family was out to celebrate their wedding anniversary.

        Basically, the family was terrorized, and the driver floored it to get his wife and toddler out of there.

        NYC needs to crack down on these biker gangs, and I do’nt care if they’re informal gangs, which is basically slate’s claim, or Official Outlaw Gangs. (Mayoral candidate Bill De Blasio said as much.)

      • 0 avatar
        johnny_5.0

        Who did what that we couldn’t see aside, should someone on a motorcycle EVER brake-check a car/truck? The physics of trying to impose your will on something that usually weighs at least 6x what you do and whose occupants are comparatively safe from the potential collision seems to say no. I’ve had someone do it to me on a highway, and I was more dumbfounded than annoyed. The logic escapes me.

      • 0 avatar
        Xeranar

        There is a full 6+ minute video. The RR brakes once as they encircled him, then hard when the front bike brake checked him. I’ve seen the tactic before, had it done once to me when I was 19 and there were 6-8 bikes, not 40. The RR really didn’t want to engage but they cornered him and when they forced him to a stop after the brake checker got hit it was clear they intended him harm.

        I’m cool with lots of bikes but if you want to engage in that behavior you need to be prepared for the consequences. They’re actually quite lucky he didn’t use his RR to kill them. As for Bigtrucks, I support the 2nd amendment but brandishing a firearm in that situation would have been escalation. I’m a good shot, standing still or walking but I’ve never tried to shoot driving 70 down a busy highway.

        At this point police need to be willing to engage in chase or stake out locations where these gangs roll thorugh to try and nab the unregistered and unlicensed.

      • 0 avatar
        raph

        Its up in the article, the guy in the RR drove into a crowd of bikers who were intentionally shutting down the highway to pull a bunch of illegal stunts. The one rider then cut in front of the RR and brake checked him. There is also plenty of video on the subject. One of the riders posted seven videos of their exploits and took six of them down after the story blew. Unfortunately for them nothing disappears on the internet and the videos showed back up showing plenty of reckless behavior like.

        The video also shows the one rider plainly brake checking the RR (I can’t really believe that guy was so unaware of his surroundings that he would cross a few feet or less in front of a large SUV) and things deteriorated from there. You see the bikers completely surround the RR and the RR driver panics and runs over a few bikers and the chase is on.

    • 0 avatar
      Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

      If some group of punks pulled this on me, I’d empty both mags of my car gun into them.

      But then, I’m in Texas.

      • 0 avatar
        mr.cranky

        And then, you’re not thinking clearly.

        But, keep up the charade.

        The folks who proudly proclaim that they’d shoot up everything in their sight are the ones who will eventually get guns banned. Why? Because more of these folks are being caught, usually after gunning down someone in cold blood

      • 0 avatar
        Chocolatedeath

        I live in FL so stand your ground dude…

      • 0 avatar
        George B

        I’m in Texas too, but it’s best not to escalate a fight when you’re severely outnumbered 50 to 2 plus killing another person isn’t a good outcome. However, once someone smashed the window drag you out of the car, use of a gun in self-defense would be justified. Probably would want to use cartridges economically rather than risk running out.

        • 0 avatar
          LuciferV8

          @George

          Agreed. I am a supporter of the 2nd amendment, stand your ground laws, and motorcycling – so this case strikes me as an instance of tragic stupidity more than anything else.

          The first line of defense should always be one’s words and consideration. The constructive solution almost always works.

          There are times when an escalation of force is justified, but that justification only comes at the exhaustion of all other options.

    • 0 avatar
      LuciferV8

      No stop and frisk either.

      The middle class liberals in NYC are about to get a cold, hard taste of reality.

      This should be interesting to watch.

  • avatar

    Yes, fun-loving “Stunt” riders, endangering themselves and others on public roads.

    The cops will single me out & pull me over for not having mufflers on my car, but will give any and all motorcyclists a pass for illegally loud exhaust.

    “Everybody’s equal, just don’t measure it.” -Bad Religion

  • avatar
    morbo

    These stuntz (and associated) biker groups are all up and down down I-95. I am occasionally passed by them on I-95, especially aorund Baltimore. I’m clocking 80 on the cruise control, and they blow past me like I’m standing still.

    Weaving in and out of tight traffic at 100+, 1-wheeling, etc. If one of these idiots hits me and my 4500 pounds of Chrysler, I ain’t stopping till I get to a state police barracks. What happened to the Range Rover confirms they are dangerous thugs, and you are in the right to defend yourself with your vehicle if you must.

    I read the one that brake checked the Range Rover is probably paralyzed for life. I say GOOD. He can ponder his life choices in the shell of his body for the next 50 years.

    As for NY police ceding the streets, I’m all for state legislators authoring lethal force and granting legal immunity to the police to deal with this specific problem.

    • 0 avatar
      FJ60LandCruiser

      IAMDALAWWW!!!

    • 0 avatar
      strafer

      The RR driver ran over an innocent guy who stopped to check on the guy who brake checked.

      • 0 avatar
        Kenmore

        What? He didn’t get them both? Crap.

      • 0 avatar
        SayMyName

        And, from the sound of it, the RR driver was doing the world a favor by doing so.

      • 0 avatar
        pgcooldad

        Innocent?? According to several news articles I have read, “records show that Mieses never had a valid driver’s license nor motorcycle license. In June, the Massachusetts Registry of Motor Vehicles notified the National Driver Register that Mieses’ right to drive in the state was revoked until 2017 for habitual traffic offenses, according to a Boston Globe report.”

        He should not even been on the road. And, who is to say that anyone of the guys who stopped to “help” didn’t have a gun and was going to use on Mr Lien, his wife and child? Did you miss the part where Mr. Lien was surrounded.

        If anything, Mr. Lien did what the courts couldn’t do, keep this “innocent fella” off the roads.

        I would have done the same thing as he did to protect my wife and child, step on the gas, and Lawyer up (as he did).

        And TTAC, why no videos here?

      • 0 avatar
        MattPete

        innocent? The man was part of mob that drove in front of the Range Rover and forced it to slow down. He might not have been the moron who was looking backwards while purposely brake-checking the SUV, but he was part of the mob.

    • 0 avatar
      vvk

      And we will be paying for his care for the said 50 years, top dollar because it is NYC after all.

    • 0 avatar
      pragmatist

      A. Don’t believe everything you read in the Post.

      B. Blanket authority is the LAST thing you want to give NY police. They have quite a history of redefining to fit their purposes. You will find a surge of ‘rogue bikers ‘ suddenly dead with no witnesses other than police. Lack of legal restraints turns police into just another gang (with more guns)

      • 0 avatar
        racer-esq.

        The no chase policy is correct, but should be countered with other meadures like tracking forums and YouTube to catch people (these are a bunch of fame whores, they aren’t hiding what they do), not with thowing their hands up.

        • 0 avatar
          redav

          I agree with the ‘do not chase’ policy, but that is a far cry from do nothing. They know when it’s happening; they know where it’s happening. They can do something about it even without going Judge Dredd. After all, they were able to stop whatever was planned at Times Square.

          But if any of them want to go at with the cops, THEN I say take off the gloves, shoot first & don’t bother asking questions, and crucify any survivors.

  • avatar
    strafer

    This was not a “biker gang” like the 1%ers, but a bunch of squids.
    Sure they are annoying, but they would not have harmed the RR driver if he hadn’t panicked and ran over an innocent guy paralyzing him.

    • 0 avatar
      morbo

      100 idiots on bikes boxing me in and brake checking me, my wife, and my baby girl. I ain’t giving them the benefit of the doubt or wasting time to determine if they’re ‘gangs’ or ‘squids’. I’m getting the fark out of dodge and finding safety.

      The paralyzed guy isn’t innocent. He got exactly what he deserved.

    • 0 avatar
      IHateCars

      I ride a sportbike and it’s jackholes like this that give all of us a bad name. I agree with morbo, they shouldn’t be pulling this sh!t on the street….go to a track. Guys who wear their protective armour over a tee-shirt and pull their “BikerBoyz” crap on the street are asking for this kind of reaction.

    • 0 avatar
      gessvt

      The bikers blocked the RR driver and ultimately stopped him, on the freeway no less, after he bumped the biker who brake checked him. Just to exchange insurance cards and chat about the nice weather, right?

    • 0 avatar
      cwallace

      What was the point of surrounding him on the road and blocking his escape, except to make him panic? Was there some other purpose for this other than picking a fight?

      One or two of these guys pulling stoppies on the freeway is one thing– a hundred of them constitutes a public menace. The police need to start actually enforcing tag and plate laws. I can’t remember the last time I saw a sportbike with a license plate on it.

      • 0 avatar
        George B

        It was ambiguous whether they were blocking in the SUV to make space for stunts or whether they were harassing an Asian family in a Range Rover for appearing to have more money and less melanin than the sport bike riders.

        • 0 avatar
          tooloud10

          Any ambiguity about their intentions is irrelevant when there are 50 cyclists clearly trying to slow the vehicle containing your family down on the freeway.

          The masked man that let himself into my kitchen might just be there to make a sandwich, but I’m not going to engage him in conversation to find out.

    • 0 avatar
      udman

      Are you f***ing kidding me? If you watched the tapes from an earlier incident, you would have realized that there was one “biker” that brake checked the Range Rover driver, and was tapped from behind, fell off his bike, and was relatively unhurt. This was when the rest of the “Hoods” started pursuing the Rover, trying to open the door at one occasion, and only when the driver of the Range Rover was boxed in again, he ran from the scene running over a couple of bikes in the process.

      The biker got what he deserved…

    • 0 avatar
      pgcooldad

      Strafer,
      See my comment above.

    • 0 avatar
      MattPete

      “…they would not have harmed the RR driver if he hadn’t panicked and ran over an innocent guy…”

      ummm….they beat on his car and slashed his tires BEFORE he ran over the guy.

    • 0 avatar
      Xeranar

      Go watch the video. They engaged him in a dangerous activity then mobbed him after they caused a tradfic accident. I know some people find it easy to blame the RR but he was well within normal thinking when he did what he did.

  • avatar
    tonycd

    It does seem just a bit too flip to mention this seems to be the only effective method of regulation now practiced against Wall Streeters — who, characteristically, had escalated the whole incident by taking the law into his own hands and trying to bully his way to the desired outcome by using a symbol of his wealth (in this case, his Range Rover).

    On the other, it does make sense that the New York police are too busy and undermanned to pursue actual crimes in progress, seeing as how their mayor has kept them busy stopping and frisking everyone who’s committing the crime of Residing While Dark.

    Did I mention I’m glad I don’t live in New York?

    • 0 avatar
      Kenmore

      Brainless twit.. his wife and baby were in there with him.

    • 0 avatar
      Chris FOM

      Nonsense. The RR got brake-checked and involved in a minor collision. Immediately he was surrounded by the bikers who were beating on his car and spiked/slashed his tires (he ultimately was forced to stop because his tires were completely flat). The violence started immediately after the brake-check, not after he fled and they caught up with him. He had his wife and daughter with him and was [quite reasonably] scared for all their lives. I’d have run like hell too.

    • 0 avatar
      cwallace

      Okay, so if it was Clark and the Family Truckster instead of a Range Rover, this would have been a completely different story?

    • 0 avatar
      thornmark

      >>Did I mention I’m glad I don’t live in New York?

      Things are gonna get a whole lot worse in NY as they seem to be ready to elect the worst of all the candidates, a product of ACORN who changed his name from Warren Wilhelm Jr to Bill DeBlasio.

      • 0 avatar
        tonycd

        OT here, but… what’s your point about a background in ACORN being bad?

        You are aware that ACORN, an organization to register minority voters, was driven out of existence by orchestrated right-wing accusations that were later proven to be somewhere between gross exaggerations and outright lies, right?

        Knee-jerk recitation of Tea Party swear words doesn’t prove that everyone within shouting distance of them is the devil.

        • 0 avatar
          Hummer

          I love how you no longer believe taped evidence.

          I’m sure if someone stabbed someone you love on film and the stabber placed their drivers liscense up to the camera, you would still find them innocent.

          • 0 avatar
            asapuntz

            the ACORN evidence may have been taped, but the story was told through aggressive editing.

          • 0 avatar
            Hummer

            Doesn’t matter how the story was told, people have the ability to watch the tapes an decide for themselves, and most people that have opinions on such things have.
            The media is about as trusted as the congress, they twist stories to promote either their ideologues (such as in acorn where all the outlets were claiming it wasn’t a big deal) or for monetary gains of spicing up a story such as in this case.

          • 0 avatar
            Xeranar

            So if I edited together a tape of how you love nazis and eat feces, that’s believable right? The tapes were heavily edited and sadly nobody in the mainstream media was interested in that until after ACORN was destroyed. Then they were exonerated.

          • 0 avatar
            Landcrusher

            I smell a post event propaganda campaign at work. Are there any non partisan sites with actual evidence of misleading edits or is this just some nonsense only found on wingnut dot net?

          • 0 avatar
            tonycd

            Landcrusher, your question is structured so it can’t possibly be answered.

            Even if you’re shown documentary evidence that the tape was misleadingly edited to frame ACORN, you reject it unless the source website meets your personal definition of “neutral.” Which, by definition, it’ll flunk, because you’ve already decided that if they believe ACORN was framed, they’re not “neutral.”

            Congratulations on the enterprising job you’ve done of protecting yourself from the scary, dangerous work of changing your mind.

          • 0 avatar
            Landcrusher

            Tony,
            That’s just silly, and you could use that sort of logic on anything. Instead of pulling a Harry Reid, why not just try? Besides, without the added benefit of authority, tv cameras, and cowed journos as backdrop, that sort of tactic is transparent enough most parents would laugh at their kids for trying it.

            Anyway, I already found some info on the subject that I found credible. It appears that the wannabe muckraker did indeed exaggerate and edit aggressively, but there was plenty of evidence to bury ACORN anyway. There was no editing words together. The evidence was too tainted for court, but the standard for getting cut off from funding isn’t the same as for losing in court, and shouldn’t be.

            They should have never been given public funding, their leadership should be blacklisted from the election process and/or any organization looking for public funding. The real scandal was voter fraud.

    • 0 avatar
      tonycd

      On reconsideration, I think the posters lower in this thread have a point. I shouldn’t snap-judge the driver or anyone else without all the facts.

      Although I do stand by the comment about stop-and-frisk.

  • avatar
    TrailerTrash

    all I want is some truth…just give me some truth…
    thanks to john lennon.
    is that asking a bit much here?
    First…I am still not sure of the events and how they unfolded. Did they first start the attack on him before he paniced and drove over the biker? I seem to remember him being bumper braked and hunted down and then were beating on his car before he hit the peddle.

    lastly…when did it become OK in NY to drive on the streets with stolen or wrong license plates on vehicles?
    The report from the police state they are having difficulty chasing down all the participants using street video cams due to this very reason.
    The bikers were using stolen or using plates from other vehicles.

    Isn’t this sort of, well…wrong???

  • avatar
    sirwired

    This TTAC article has a MAJOR inconsistency (vs. the NYPost article it’s citing.)

    The NYPost article states that the man who was not charged was “banging with his fist on the rear driver’s side window of victim Alexian Lien’s rear driver’s side window” It’s assault, yes. But there isn’t any mention to suggest he’s the one that beat the man or the one that actually smashed the window(s). Those are different people still being sought. (I will admit the photo caption does say Edwards was the guy that smashed the window in, but the article doesn’t say that.)

    That said, if TTAC is referring to some other sources also, that’s cool. It wouldn’t surprise me if the NYPost article is bogus; it’s certainly poorly written and shows no evidence even an unpaid intern copyeditor read the thing before publishing.

    • 0 avatar
      burgersandbeer

      This story is all over the news everywhere. The NY Post would be the last source I would link to. Especially given TTAC’s own problems with copy editing.

      Not only is there no mention of the rider that wasn’t charged smashing the window, the picture of said rider clearly shows the guy who did. You can see him swinging his helmet.

      As for why the guy hasn’t been charged, it’s possible the DA is trying to build a case for something more serious than reckless driving. Either against him or his buddy who actually did smash the window, which I would think counts as assault with a deadly weapon. Once they have him, they can find the people who pulled Lien out of the truck and beat him. Now they have the worst of the crew for aggravated assault. Beats quickly charging random riders with misdemeanor driving offenses, no?

      And why does Jack have every other word in quotes? His stuff is usually really good, but this one is sloppy.

  • avatar
    IHateCars

    I will agree with “The Slate” writer though in that these Biker Boyz aren’t the same kettle of fish as Hell’s Angels, etc. Having said that, that does not negate the severity of what they have done. These “Stunter” gangs typically have a “F*ck da police” attitude and act accordingly….throw the book at them.

  • avatar
    nickeled&dimed

    Less of this flame-bait crap, Jack, and more racing.

    Nothing you said in the article is known for sure, and a few things appear to be factually incorrect. What this article seems to be asking for are polarized responses.

    FWIW, the guy who the charges were dropped against was interviewed on CNN this morning… might want to check that out… and he didn’t break the window. The guy who broke the window is being charged with assault, illegal imprisonment, and some other crap I don’t remember. The guy who brake checked the RR is being charged with a slew of traffic violations, was in court this morning. The guy that got run over seems to be the second real victim, along with the RR driver.

    My first reaction to this whole incident:
    That never would have happened to me. I’d have gotten out of their damn way and let those idiots have the whole highway to do their stupid tricks. From what it sounds like he wasn’t boxed in until after the brake-check + contact piece.

    • 0 avatar
      NormSV650

      Getting out of their way was what Lien didn’t do. I think he was driving while Asian. I went to The Ohio State University which has many Asian Pacific graduate students learning to drive with “student driver” in the window and are worst than senior citizen’s day when the sun is out, really bad. So sometimes you need to stay out of harm’s way when someone wants around you. I’ll await further video and evidence and the charges brought up on Lien.

      The other tactic is for the police to their job on them one at a time. They crash thinking they are chased when by themselves and die, the loosely formed group fails apart. Slow but simple and very effective.

      • 0 avatar
        jd418197

        “I went to The Ohio State University . . .”

        Columbus has the worst drivers I’ve ever seen. Nice people, but incredibly incompetent on the roads. I don’t have much to add to this thread otherwise . . .

      • 0 avatar
        28-Cars-Later

        May I ask, why is it always referred to with “the” by the alums? Could there be another Ohio State Univ and you need to distinguish?

        • 0 avatar
          jd418197

          Yep, that’d be Ohio University – the original state U, in Athens, Ohio. Ohio State has always had an inferiority complex. Ohio State has better football; Ohio U better everything else :)

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            I took a business trip to the OSU campus in summer 2010 with my gf. As we drove down Olentangy River Road to the hotel we were spellbound, we kept repeating to each other “man, we got jipped” referring to our respective higher education experiences.

            Now that I think about it I spent a day once in Athens at Ohio University, it had a nice vibe to it but it didn’t have the same overall impressive feel to the campus as OSU did for me. Academics or facilities are another matter.

      • 0 avatar
        azmtbkr81

        Blame it on race…classy. What would you have done differently? Lien maintained a steady, predictable speed allowing the bikers to pass right up to the point he was brake checked.

        • 0 avatar
          Nick_515

          There’s certainly not enough info to say whether race matters in this case, so i agree with you.

          i wouldn’t blame the driver, but there was a white van who did exactly that …. pulled over and let them go.

          It’s amazing to me that people talk about solving this situation with guns. What are you going to do, Rambos, gun down 15 people on West highway because they brake-checked you?!? And what happens when you ran out of ammo or were tackled?

          I love it when everyone behaves like a predator ready to give “the bad guys” hell.

          • 0 avatar
            azmtbkr81

            Does race ever matter in a case like this? I hope you are joking…

            There is no way he could have pulled over without risking running one or more of the bikes off of the road. They had him completely boxed in and he did the only sane and reasonable thing possible: maintain a predicable course and speed and hope they go away.

          • 0 avatar
            Nick_515

            azmtbkr81: race and social class almost always matters in situations like these, for it has been time and again established that people’s perceptions of trust and danger are affected by the perceived social distance between themselves and others.

            i couldn’t not be joking any less. but i also don’t allow generalizations to influence my analysis of a particular situation. hence my hesitation about this particular case.

            I don’t think you are right. I think he could have pulled over – and probably would have become a fairly uninteresting thing for the bikers. It’s not like they were boxing everyone on the highway that day. BUT, this still doesn’t amount to blame for Mr. Lien.

    • 0 avatar
      thesal

      Thank you first balanced and reasonable comment that makes sense.

      The rest of these comments (thanks to the flame bait) are:
      - “I hatez bikerz”
      - “OMG, think about the family” i.e. license to mass murder
      - Twisted facts and weird interpretations of what happened

    • 0 avatar
      WheelMcCoy

      >>That never would have happened to me. I’d have gotten out of their damn way…

      It happened to me, and it’s not always easy to get out of the way.

      You might hear or see them coming if you were already on the highway, but I was merging onto the Deegan Expressway when the swarm came over a hill and appeared in my rear view mirror.

      Fortunately, I was still in the right lane, but they had me boxed in on 3 sides. One was “one wheeling” it, seemingly over my trunk, but perhaps he wasn’t really *that* close.

      I slowed and kept a steady predictable pace. Then, I saw an actual sign of intelligence. One of the bikers on my left used his right turn signal. The swarm wanted to exit at the next off-ramp, and I slowed further to accommodate them.

      I had passengers in my car and they were a bit alarmed. But this incident ended well enough. A nervous driver, an inexperienced driver, or an angry driver might have had a different ending.

    • 0 avatar
      azmtbkr81

      I don’t see how Lien could have avoided making contact with the bike. A sport bike has a much shorter stopping distance than a 3 ton SUV traveling at highway speeds – something the idiot riding the bike failed to take into account. Furthermore coming to a dead stop on a highway is asking to be rear-ended at high speed.

  • avatar
    racer-esq.

    This guy didn’t even have an RR, he had an RR Sport (although maybe that’s for the best, the BOF Sport sure handled the bikes). He’s not some Wall Street villain, he’s just a tech guy. Like it matters, even Wall Street villains have the right to slef defense. The guy that supposedly got paralzed was part of a gang committing vehicular felonies. If he got killed he would be guilty of his own felony murder. By the way, the paralyzed dude was not allowed to drive in MA until 2017 because of traffic offenses. It sad to see NY prosecutors not prosecute the window breaking thug, this is clearly criminals vs. a guy using restrained self defense.

  • avatar
    mikey

    True story…This July my wife and I went on a road trip to eastern Canada. The “Cabot trail” follows the Atlantic shore line, around Cape Breton island. Very scenic wonderfull twist turns, and mountains.

    My bride of 41 years is ill. I leave at that.

    So were enjoying the drive in our 6cyl Mustang, top down when a herd 15 maybe 20 of these idiots fly by us. They got to be topping 130 klms.

    Cool their gone I think! No way theres 4 more one of them ten feet off my bumper. So I slow down They pass me, they slow down. My wife is terrified. These idiots are playing cat and mouse with Motor homes, tour buses, mini vans. I finally pulled into rest area. I got my wife settled down. However, it did screw up a ,lovely cruise

    Let me make this clear. These were not what I would call bikers. No patches,no big tattooed guys with beards. The 1% would never do this stuff.

    I don’t blame the dude in the Land Rover for a second. As far as I’m concerned justice was done.

  • avatar
    Landcrusher

    The answer is to look again at the laws on unlawful detention. We have a lot of vets back from wars among us these days, and it would be a good time to clarify the rules, penalties, and rightful responses before some guy kills a bunch of idiots and their friends. I can’t believe this guy didn’t run over more of them instead of taking a beating.

    While we are at it, a change in tort should be made so that the friends of idiots can’t sue on the grounds they endangered themselves when they joined a pack of wolves. If you get run over while trying to block a road without appropriate purpose or equipment, the injuries you receive are your own damn fault.

    I suspect these laws have gone unkempt because the press likes to detain people in public places in order to provoke them and get images. There needs to be some new rules on that nonsense as well. Of course, I suppose its asking too much to have legislators work on the actual government jobs I steadying of meddling in everything else.

  • avatar
    bryanska

    Can you dig it?

    CAANN YOU DIG IIIIIIT????

    (anybody understand what I’m quoting?)

  • avatar
    Ryoku75

    Around here in Missouri theres your regular bikers groups, I’ve passed them several times and been passed by them and never once did we get into any fights, but like I said these are regular Harley driving bikers.

    The people involved in that Land Rover incident were just a bunch of mindless jokers, the paralyzed guy got it a bit hard but will hopefully be a bit more wiser once he recovers, paralysis is something I’d never wish upon even my greatest enemy.

    Stunts like this go on only because NYs gone wimpy and banned firearms, now imagine if the Sherrif did the same thing back in the Wild West.

    • 0 avatar
      krhodes1

      I fail to see how a firearm would help the situation. A 5000lb truck is weapon enough. It’s probably just dumb luck that one or more of the BIKERS was not carrying.

      • 0 avatar
        Ryoku75

        Intimidation really, but a Range Rover or even a standard car would be a good enough weapon if driven defensively.

        I personally would’ve driven over the guys bike, and driven to the nearest store or other area for the sake of witness’s and to draw attention to the situation.

        If need be, I’d swerve along the way to keep the idiots off my vehicle, its frankly idiotic that the police aren’t supposed to get involved much with stunts like this.

  • avatar
    Halftruth

    Long time biker here.. Everyone needs to share the road. Too often, certain riders act like everyone else on the road should anticipate their every move and wish. If this doesn’t happen, hissy fits ensue be it solo or in a group. When I am out there, I try to act like a car so I can be seen and be treated with respect. Not act like a child on a bicycle riding around the neighborhood. You are outnumbered, you are vulnerable and have no damn reason to act like a shithead unless you want to end up underneath an RR’s wheels. Respect goes both ways. If it were me in the RR, I would have defended my family the same.

  • avatar
    krhodes1

    I’m not a proponent of violence in any form, but I can safely say that in that situation I would have done EXACTLY the same thing – run, and I would care very much who or what was in the way.

    While I don’t think Mr. Lein deserves a medal or anything, I can’t find any fault with what he did, and the bikers got less than they deserved. Particularly the moron who brake-checked a 5000lb+ truck on a BIKE. My old Range Rover has decent brakes for a 5000lb truck, but it is still a 5000lb truck!

    The police not going after these idiots is completely mind-boggling to me, though I suppose in NYC they actually have more serious crime to deal with. Maybe need to get a State Police detail in there? I have seen entire swaths of bikers pulled over here in Maine by the Staties – they really have NO sense of humor about goofing around on the highway.

    • 0 avatar
      Onus

      If it was me in my 1990 f250, the biker would have got ran over and smashed without me trying.

      Really early 80′s pickup design the brakes work but aren’t like a modern car.

  • avatar
    Volt 230

    Seems to be that way to me, I’ve lived on the road long enough to realize that a large % of bikers do as they wish, speed, cut off cars, sneak up to lights between lanes, do wheelies, I have spoken to a couple of FHP troopers who told me they simply don’t chase them anymore. “Let them kill themselves” is what I’ve heard from them. Problem is that they may take someone else’s life in the process.

  • avatar
    blackbolt

    A friend of mine was on that run and described a scene that just got out of hand in a heartbeat. He said the riders were agressive but the driver of the RR panicked after hitting the first guy. The media is running with this because it means a few more papers sold but crazy things happen especially when collective thinking is involved. These guys were’nt looking for trouble but they reacted stupidly when it came. Just a sad situation for all involved but a lesson to be learned out of it.

  • avatar
    Onus

    The guy who got ran over, yeah it sucks that your paralyzed but, maybe you should have picked better friends who aren’t a bunch of thugs. I feel no remorse for the family. They should have taught their son better.

    I would have done the same exact thing in a heartbeat without a second thought.

    Its like if a crime is committed and people die EVERYONE is charged with murder. Even if they were killed indirectly or just one guy did it. Charge all these idiots if they can find them.

    I have no problem with bikers. A few are friends. But, they just go out on their Harley in groups and cruise. They don’t pull this kind of stunt. Their bikes are also registered correctly.

  • avatar
    mcs

    Here’s a video from their 2012 ride.

    http://goo.gl/4FmI3M

    This video is from 2013:
    http://b4moto.com/video/29056/

  • avatar
    IHateCars

    Let’s not turn this into a Harley rider against sportbike rider thread…I can name a lot of stupid sh!t that I’ve seen Harley/cruiser riders do as well.

    blackbolt – I fail to see how “these guys weren’t looking for trouble” when they brake check cars and try to shut down traffic to create their own “stuntaz” dragstrip. Seems like the definition of “looking for trouble” to me…

    • 0 avatar
      blackbolt

      Totally agree, but the outcome of their stupidity is the trouble I’m referring to. I’m sure no one wanted that outcome. The way this article is written feeds the outrage but the cops seem to be looking at the incident from all angles and making judgements accordingly.

      • 0 avatar
        Japanese Buick

        right @blackbolt, what it looks like to me is that the authorities are proceeding through this case very deliberately. I don’t believe it’s been established who will be charged and who will not. And the injured biker has hired Gloria Allred so even if the SUV isn’t charged, he’s definitely not in the clear.

  • avatar
    LeMansteve

    Lots of different angles to consider in this story. Very strong “mob justice” opinions on both sides of the case and very little mention of the legal considerations. Will be interesting to see the outcome.

    • 0 avatar
      Astigmatism

      Unfortunately, the legal outcome is typically more to do with that the prosecutors feel is possible (or worthwhile trying for) given the evidence and resources at hand than what criminal law actually provides. If they don’t feel completely confident that they can ID the guy who pulled Lien out of his car, or prove the sequence of events (including disproving any fairy tales told by the defense) to a jury, they won’t bother prosecuting.

  • avatar
    Japanese Buick

    Bottom line: we don’t know everything yet. Give it some time.

    I think people are making premature judgements on who will be charged and who will get off scot free. I believe the prosecutors are proceeding deliberately to make sure their cases stick.

    Here are some quotes from http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/02/20783272-biker-injured-in-nyc-clash-with-suv-hires-celebrity-attorney-gloria-allred:

    Allen Edwards, 42, of Queens, was seen hitting the Range Rover with his hands but there is no indication he participated in the beating and he actually may have tried to help the SUV driver, sources told NBC New York.

    The wife of one of the bikers who was injured when a motorist in an SUV fled a biker attack wants charges against the driver. But police say he did what he had to do to get away and protect his family, and that charges against him aren’t likely. NBC’s Kristen Dahlgren reports.

    “We are taking Sunday’s crimes extremely seriously, and will proceed with charges in a manner that enables us to build the strongest cases possible,” Karen Friedman-Agnifilo of the Manhattan district attorney’s office said in a statement.

    “Prematurely charging individuals with low-level crimes does not further the goals of the investigation, and could weaken the cases we expect to bring against the perpetrators of serious crimes.”

  • avatar
    Russycle

    That poster brings back memories. Bos stayed at the hotel I worked at when he was shooting that movie, I saw him quite a bit, though I never met him. Mostly kept to himself, didn’t hear many stories about him, unlike certain other celebs.

  • avatar
    dude500

    As a car driver, I’ve gotten swarmed by packs of sportbikes before. I have no problem if they’re splitting lanes or even weaving across lanes, for the purpose of getting past traffic. But the many incidents of showboating are ridiculous.

    As a motorcycle rider, the public outrage of this incident makes me even more nervous about riding around NYC. I’ve low-sided twice because a car gave me a “tap” while it was changing lanes (and both times the cars took off). I wouldn’t be surprised if this event has driven even less regard for motorcyclists’ safety.

  • avatar
    Kyree S. Williams

    It’s amazing to me that people think Lien should have had and used a gun…like several of those bikers weren’t probably also packing. I could understand that logic for one or two assailants, but he was grossly outnumbered. The victim pulling out a gun likely could have gotten him and his family killed. The kind of people who would find a solution in pulling out a gun on a large group of aggressive bikers are probably the ones that don’t need to have access to such weapons.

  • avatar
    izzy

    Admittedly, I don’t know the whole story. As a rider, my first reaction when seeing the video was that I wanted to retaliate if my buddy was ran over too.
    OK, say I was driving a RR in New York and was blocked by the knuckle heads wanting to close off the streets to use as their own stunting ground. I would have sit in my car and waited. May be get a few laughs watching them crash. Or call 911 and get the cops. Shoot video and turn it in to NYPD etc.
    Last thing I would want to do is to provoke the mob.

    • 0 avatar
      johnny_5.0

      And then one of the bozos brake-checked you and you accidentally bumped him. He was physically okay at this point. But some of his bozo friends go and trap you in and start beating on your car with your wife and two year old child in the car. I’m sure you would have reached into the glove compartment to get your insurance information and stepped out of the car calmly…

      Or you know, you might have panicked fearing for the safety of your family and gunned the throttle…

  • avatar
    rudiger

    An interesting incident for a couple of reasons:

    1. Last year’s gathering (which snarled traffic) caught the NYPD off guard. This year, they were ready and, with the full force of the city (including helicopters), broke up the huge mass of bikers, leaving them to roam around the city unchecked in smaller (but still large) pockets of bikers. This seems to be one of those pockets of bikers that was initially in front of the RR. One wonders if this would have happened at all if the cops hadn’t broken up the big group. Seems odd considering the cops ‘hands off, no chase’ policy with regard to motorcycles. I guess the NYPD must have figured the sportbikers would all just break-up and go home as individuals. They thought wrong.

    2. The thing that really seems to touch a nerve is the ‘class warfare’ aspect of the confrontation. Wealthy Wall-Streeter indifferently mows down some admittedly aggressive, but much poorer, bikers, not unlike how the wealthy in this country have no problem mowing down everyone else, only the wealthy normally do it in a substantially less obvious, much more subtle, economic fashion.

    It’s too bad the video doesn’t include any clues as to what set off the whole incident. What was it, exactly, that the RR driver did to cause the first biker (name Cruz) to brake-check him? I would imagine we’ll never know.

    My suspicion is that it was probably nothing more than being impatient with the now irritated bikers (who had nowhere to go) and, when he tried to force his way through the crowd (rather than backing off and slowing down to whatever slow speed they were traveling), he got way too close (actually forced himself into the thick of them of his own accord as he tried to get through), and that’s where the video picks up. I don’t think the bikers overtook the RR. Rather, it was the other way around, in that the RR came up behind the bikers.

    Ironically, I think the guy who brake-checked him was trying to get the RR driver to slow down and back ‘out’ of the pack. But the impatient, wealthy RR driver (and he ‘was’ well-off, having co-founded a $50 million dollar e-commerce website) was not used to being blocked on the highway and was having none of it. He wanted to get through the pack and, well, you can see the result…

    • 0 avatar
      MattPete

      It looked to me that the bikers caught up to the RR, passed him, and then slowed him to a stop. I’d hardly call that “… one of those pockets of bikers that was initially in front of the RR…”

      And since when is it OK to stop in the middle of a public highway and close it off so that you and your friends can do stunts?

    • 0 avatar
      Japanese Buick

      This is the first I’ve seen point 1. Sounds like a healthy dose of NYPD incompetence involved here. They broke up the big pack with no plans on what to do about the resulting smaller packs? Not too bright.

      Point 2, I don’t think what Lien did was indifferent. He was surrounded by aggressive people who he believed were threatening him.

      As for who caught up to whom, what I’ve seen of the video makes it look to me like the bikers caught up to and surrounded him. Plus I haven’t known sport bikers to be big on driving slower than traffic. However I am willing to be convinced otherwise with evidence.

      • 0 avatar
        rudiger

        I based the suggestion that the bikers were intentionally and deliberately riding slowly on other videos from other gatherings that show them going slowly (unless they were performing occasional ‘stuntz’ within the pack). It makes sense if they wanted to stay together to drive in that manner (Harley riders do it all the time), and it definitely seems like they wanted to stay in a pack and not put a lot of distance between individuals. Hell, when they’re showing off, they need an audience. The big difference is that most Harley riders that ride in groups don’t intentionally hog all highway lanes at a low speed.

        So, yeah, the bikers started it by driving slowly and clogging up all highway lanes. But if Lien had patiently (and intelligently) just stayed behind them, rather than trying to force his way through, none of it would have happened. In effect, Lien put himself into a situation that quickly escalated out of control.

      • 0 avatar
        hubcap

        “Sounds like a healthy dose of NYPD incompetence involved here.”

        I have had friends and family on the force but still I’m not one to jump to the defense of the NYPD but it’s easy to say that and much harder to combat it.

        What would you do and keep in mind that some of these motorcyclists might at times act like asses, they’re disobeying traffic laws. The police do have other, more serious concerns.

        I’m not giving them a pass. I just don’t think its as easy as you make it out to be.

    • 0 avatar
      racer-esq.

      Jeez, the nerve of someone to get educated and start a company. And to drive the cheap model Range Rover on top of that.

      I’m all for high marginal income tax rates, but people have a right to self defense when violent mobs attack them, even people that have worked hard and are sucessful. The actual self defense was VERY restrained – just driving away. Lien did not “stand his ground” he left the situation that reasonably threatened to kill or severly injure him.

      One of the people that blocked him so the others could attack him. Someone with so many driving offenses that they cannot legally drive in Massachusetts, and without any valid drivers license license at all, got hit. For trying use his criminal activity to screw Lien out of money hopefully Mieses can never walk again, or use his arms.

      Your suspicion that Lien started it is interesting given that Lien had real license plates on his car, not no license plate or a stolen plate, that Lien was not illegally shutting down a freeway and that Lien does not post videos on YouTube of himself running redlights and driving on sidewalks:

      http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/the-footage-that-the-nyc-bikers-didnt-want-you-to-see-1435594427

      • 0 avatar
        rudiger

        No, Lien may not have started the whole incident (and that’s a big ‘if’, depending on the minimum legal speed limit for that stretch of highway and the laws concerning slower vehicles blocking faster moving traffic), but he certainly made poor decisions as to how to extricate himself from a bad situation.

        I just can’t believe that these bikers came racing up on this poor, innocent schlub, minding his own business on a pleasant Sunday drive, and they, completely out of the blue and with no provocation, whatsoever, start harassing and terrorizing him and his family.

        It’s rather like walking into a known biker bar wearing a three-piece suit immediately after a few of the bikers had just been arrested and taken away. Is it legal and are you within your rights? Sure. Is it the smartest thing to do to keep hanging around, especially after a few of the bikers make it clearly known that you’re not welcome? Probably not, particularly if you have your wife and child in tow.

        From the brief look of things, I suspect that Lien made his situation as bad as he possibly could by likely antagonizing Cruz even more before he was brake-checked, maybe even gesturing at him with a middle finger salute.

        The bottom line is I would look for NYC to be shouldering major lawsuits from everyone involved in the near future.

        • 0 avatar
          JK43123

          “It’s rather like walking into a known biker bar wearing a three-piece suit immediately after a few of the bikers had just been arrested and taken away. Is it legal and are you within your rights? Sure. Is it the smartest thing to do to keep hanging around, especially after a few of the bikers make it clearly known that you’re not welcome? Probably not, particularly if you have your wife and child in tow.”

          Yes, but this ain’t a bar, it’s a public street, and the bikers ain’t cops. Even if the Range Rover was going “too fast” so what? At least one of them has a driving record that looks like a stain on the DMV computer. Who are they to say?

          And yes I understand NY cops don’t have manpower to follow them, but why would you not prosecute one when you do manage to catch one?

          John

    • 0 avatar

      Yes. Because the pack of bikers was cruising along minding their own business, and NOT exceeding the speed limit, and then this mean-old Range Rover barrelled up through them and at this point the motorcyclist turned on their helmet-cam.

      If you’d like to put your money where your mouth is, one could EASILY calculate the speeds of the various drivers based on the inverval(s) between the vehicles and the stationary objects they are passing on the side of the highway.

      AND why, exactly, would someone post the most damning, unflattering video possible of themselves and their crimes on the eternal internet?

    • 0 avatar
      jeffzekas

      The whole story line of Range Rover vs biker is out of Bonfire of the Vanities.

  • avatar
    Japanese Buick

    I just have to say, I’ve looked at a few sites’ comment sections and regardless of the quality of Jack’s initial story, the comments here are better and more balanced than I’ve seen anywhere else. Probably the result of having both car and motorcycle enthusiasts here. As an exclusively car driver I’m glad to see some motorcyclists’ perspectives as well.

    • 0 avatar
      racer-esq.

      Real motorcyclists are more annoyed with these idiot losers than anyone else:

      http://rideapart.com/2013/09/new-york-bikers-video/

      Members of the gang have taken down their self-incriminating videos, but they’ve been archived:

      http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/the-footage-that-the-nyc-bikers-didnt-want-you-to-see-1435594427/1436603736/@orlove

  • avatar
    mcs

    Apparently, the injured biker had a bit of a bad driving record. No license since 1999. He’s also hired Gloria Allred as his attorney.

    http://www.eagletribune.com/latestnews/x934955433/Bikers-right-to-drive-revoked-since-1999

  • avatar
    jacob_coulter

    You simply can’t count on bureaucrats to protect you.

    Hell, you can’t even count on them to prosecute the thugs with a video after you’ve been beat within an inch of your life because politicians are worried about Al Sharpton. The fact that police are told to stand down from these gangs is sickening.

    I’d rather explain my illegal pistol to a jury than be beat nearly to death and have my family put in mortal danger.

  • avatar
    azmtbkr81

    Even if Lien isn’t charged he is in for a long, tough slog for many years to come. There will certainly be a string of civil lawsuits, threats, and the guilt associated with maiming someone (even if he was justified). This is a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time if there ever was one. Hopefully he will come out with his finances and sanity still intact.

  • avatar
    rocketrodeo

    Long-time rider here with 30+ years and several hundred thousand miles on two wheels. IMO, interacting with traffic in any kind of adversarial way is just plain stupid. There is nothing as useless as road rage on a motorcycle. Realizing that you are plankton or, at best, a minnow in the highway food chain is a really useful attitude, one that can keep you alive–as is reminding yourself that of every hundred cars you pass, there are statistically at least a couple of sociopaths with whom you are “sharing” the road. This awareness hasn’t kept me from getting punted on a couple of occasions but it’s kept me out of the really big trouble.
    Riding in big packs is asking for really big trouble. Like humans in any crowd situation, the collective intelligence and common sense drops to the least common denominator, or below. Clueless driver meets clueless riders: predictable results.

    • 0 avatar
      jimbob457

      Well said. Speaking as an old biker myself: my leg, your bumper or your leg, my bumper. All the same.

      Just watched the video from its beginning. I think the dimwit biker who started the whole mess had watched one too many Bugs Bunny/Roadrunner cartoons growing up. From what I saw, I can’t really fault the SUV driver, except for his lack of cool.

      Bottom line. Always be careful driving around any motorcycle. Never shoot a biker gang the finger. If a gang comes after you, run like Hell and don’t stop short of the nearest police station.

  • avatar
    Kenmore

    ‘Nuff for me.. last comment.

    We all like a like a little flame bait nibble but let’s not rack up 3-400 comments here.

    Jack’s not doing anything to earn that. He’s no Ruggles.

  • avatar
    hubcap

    IMO everyone needs to chill the f*ck out. Why is it than so many on both sides are so quick to invoke violence? I don’t want to kill or maim anyone. You do what needs to be done to protect you and yours but for most situations, this one included, discretion on both sides, is the better part of valor.

    SO when I see comments such as (I’m paraphrasing) ‘I’d kill them all with my MP5 that I keep in the trunk’, or “I’d run over them, turn around and run over them again, then turn back around and run over them a third time’ I don’t know if I should crack a smile or shed a tear.

    We’re the bikers acting like a@@holes?–yep
    Could both parties done something to defuse the situation?–yep
    Are there regrets all around?–yep

    And why is Mr. Lien derided for being a successful business man? Why is it that if someone reaches a modicum of success in the business world they’re automatically associated with the “banksters”?

    Like others have said, we don’t know everything that happened and from the video that I saw I couldn’t tell what happened after the RR was brake checked because the camera was too far away.

    Hopefully everyone involved both directly and indirectly will learn something from this unfortunate incident.

    • 0 avatar
      Pch101

      “Could both parties done something to defuse the situation?–yep”

      What should the Range Rover driver have done exactly?

      That’s not a rhetorical question. Be specific.

      • 0 avatar
        Astigmatism

        Well, apparently being Asian was part of the problem, if you read further up the page. So he could have done something about that.

        • 0 avatar
          Pch101

          That does provide insight into Norm’s hatred of Japanese cars. The guy has some issues with race, and that doesn’t mean NASCAR.

        • 0 avatar
          strafer

          I was curious why Norm thought Lien is Asian, so googled and turns out Lien is a popular first name for girls in China.
          Doubt very much that Alexian Lien is a Chinese name, however.
          And what does the race of the driver matter anyway?

          • 0 avatar
            Pch101

            Lien is Asian, judging from his photograph.

            Of course, that doesn’t matter, as you rightly point out. Anyone who would use his race as a justification for the attack has a dubious agenda.

      • 0 avatar
        hubcap

        “What should the Range Rover driver have done exactly?”

        I really don’t know because I don’t know how the situation developed. In the original video (which has been replaced on YouTube by a version edited by one of the networks) there was a white cargo van that slowed down and let the bikers do what they we’re doing. So I’d say that prior to the brake check the RR could have also backed down.

        I can’t be positive but I’m pretty sure that post incident both parties wished this was handled differently.

        • 0 avatar
          Pch101

          “So I’d say that prior to the brake check the RR could have also backed down.”

          Let’s say for the sake of argument that the motorist who hit the biker was completely at fault for the incident, with complete liability for the crash.

          Given what happened, do you honestly believe that the driver was in a position to stop his vehicle and exchange information with an angry mob? What would you have him do then?

          I can appreciate that you’re trying to see both sides. But there are times where there aren’t two sides. When one of the sides is a mob, then you can safely presume that the mob in question doesn’t have a position that is worth defending.

          Civilized people expect that crashes can happen, and will exchange information rather than blows in the event that a crash occurs. If you don’t want to have any possible risk of being involved in a vehicle crash, then you need to stay far away from public roads, as that expectation is completely unrealistic and not at all fair.

          • 0 avatar
            hubcap

            “Given what happened, do you honestly believe that the driver was in a position to stop his vehicle and exchange information with an angry mob?”

            No. That’s why I concentrated on what could have been done beforehand. In that situation, once the hit occurred, changing info would be dicey at best.

            “If you don’t want to have any possible risk of being involved in a vehicle crash, then you need to stay far away from public roads, as that expectation is completely unrealistic and not at all fair.”

            I didn’t think I gave any indication of not being aware that driving om public roads, or any roads, is a risk. I drive cars, I ride motorcycles and ATVs and fly aircraft.

            I’ve made my living in military and commercial aviation for a good chunk of my adult life. I’m all about risk identification and management. I had to be, and that carries over into the present.

          • 0 avatar
            Pch101

            “That’s why I concentrated on what could have been done beforehand”

            So your advice to drivers who wish to avoid confrontations is to avoid crashes. Until it becomes possible to achieve a zero crash rate, that doesn’t seem like very useful advice.

            You do realize that your suggestion doesn’t make much sense for this sort of situation, right?

            “I’m all about risk identification and management.”

            The bikers don’t share your interest, as their behavior would suggest. Have you seen how they behave themselves on these rides?

  • avatar
    SoCalMikester

    How are these jerkoffs any better than those wacky “fun loving street racer kids”? Or Afroduck?

    At least those people almost always have a legally registered and insured car when they get all fast and furious.

  • avatar
    JuniperBug

    I love this mentality: gang up on an SUV driver, and then cry “Victim!” when he uses his vehicle’s mass to defend himself. Look, if I go up to a guy twice my size and punch him in the face, I don’t get to whine that he doesn’t have the right to pound me.

    Once you start the fight, you need to figure that all bets are off the table, and you get what you get. You’re a complete idiot if you don’t expect a driver to run into you when you try to force him off the road or otherwise intentionally threaten his safety. I say this as a motorcycle enthusiast. The law should see this for what it was: a man using the only means he had at his disposal to protect himself and his family from a credible threat to their safety.

    All moral implications aside, if you’re stupid enough to brake check an SUV with your motorcycle, it’s probably best that you don’t live long enough for your genes to spread, anyway.

    • 0 avatar
      highdesertcat

      I agree with you. I, too, have been riding bikes since I was a kid, and even built one in Jr High Auto shop as my project for the semester.

      For medical reasons related to old age I had to give up riding big bikes in 2011. Since I don’t fancy riding on a three-wheeler, I got out of the game entirely.

      So, there are old riders, and there are bold riders. But there are no old bold riders!

      These bikers from NY must have suffered from some sort of mass-hallucination that collectively affected their judgment when they pulled this stunt on a public road. The SUV driver had every right to fear for his well-being and take evasive action.

      I hope the cops throw the book at these clowns. They give motorcycle enthusiasts a bad name.

    • 0 avatar
      slavuta

      Bikers were wrong but this guy was really wrong. He should just avoid them altogether. May be, get to the side of the road, call police, FBI, CIA, FEMA camp… Art of war: when enemy is more than you – avoid the fight. and this guy is Chinese! I hope he will remember his wounds and learn his lesson of Art of war

      • 0 avatar
        kuponoodles

        Right… cuz every person that is Chinese, whether American born or From China, Taiwan, etc MUST have read Art of War and uses it as a guide to his/her life.

        And… I have never, ever, seen a d-bag with PA plates speeding in NYC. NOR have I ever seen anyone with PA plates speed in PA either.. such high class and educated people there.
        *cough* Philly

        Were you picked on when you were a kid? Butt hurt much?

      • 0 avatar
        WheelMcCoy

        >>Bikers were wrong but this guy was really wrong. He should just avoid them altogether

        So now it’s blame the victim? When a woman is attacked or raped, do you argue she shouldn’t have been out at night? She shouldn’t have been wearing that dress?

        When the World Trade Center fell, were you among those who said “the U.S. asked for it. Deserved it?”

        • 0 avatar
          slavuta

          My dream is to give each New Yorker a gun. In 2 months they will all kill each other. Nuff said. This idiot is not a victim. In every drivers manual it is written in black on white, to stay away from trouble. When someone attacks a woman, this is what they want to do. When someone attacks America, this is what they want to do. Are you saying, these bikers wanted to get this guy’s butt? I think, they just wanted a road. This guy is not a cop to defend a public road. He could stop his car and stop pissing off these idiots. Now he is as good as they.

      • 0 avatar
        strafer

        Alexian Lien is a Chinese name? I think not.
        If it was a female with first name Lien, then could be Chinese but not a last name.

  • avatar
    slavuta

    Jack Baruth, are you supporting this Lien guy?

    “…afterwards, he was chased into the city…”
    his choice. He could just stop and let bikers go, call police and say, “I am afraid they will kill me now”. But he is another ignorant NYC resident. He needs to get there first!!

    “dragged from his vehicle, and beaten savagely” – not enough for my taste. Should of broken his back, so his wife would have to take care of him for the rest of her life.

    I am rider myself and I don’t want guys like Lien on the road.

    I am a public, and I demand that NYC drivers drive by the laws established in PA and not speed 90mph here, when they come here.

  • avatar
    kuponoodles

    About a year ago, NYPD accidentally killed a person for riding dirt bikes in the Bronx and got sued for $10million or something stupid. The media jumped all over it and said they shouldn’t have initiated the chase and put peoples lives in danger. The past few days, the media and a new group of asshats say that the NYPD isn’t doing enough.

    What evidence does anyone have that he was not letting the bikers go? He was in the middle lane. Blocked 3 sides. Slowing downbut not slowing enough. The guy in the white bike got in front of him so close that he probably had no time to react.

    He panicked and ran. That’s what he did wrong.

    Anyone defending the bikers, needs to go die in a fire because you either ride with asshats like these or a wannabe. You weren’t there and you were not being passed by lane splitters on the left and right.
    Its a 3 lane highway. How the frack come cant they ride/ stunt in one or 2 lanes?
    Oh.. cuz your cool if you “own the road”.

  • avatar
    Boxer2500

    Now that multiple prosecutions related to this case are underway – including the biker accused of beating the Range Rover driver – an update to the original article would be more than fair. You can put it after the jump if you want to keep the clickbait going.

  • avatar
    DasFast

    In my opinion the best defense against these budding sociopaths is a HornBlasters K5 train horn kit. The horns are loud enough to cause considerable discomfort to anyone without exceptional hearing protection.
    Let the above scenario play out differently a few times with the simple press of a button, and I think word would get around fast.
    A demo:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zooUyAqVUvE

  • avatar
    jeffzekas

    Reading all the comments, two thoughts come to mind: 1. Respect for others is at an all time low in our society and 2. In South Africa, where car jackings are more frequent, an inventor introduced a flame thrower which spews fire out the side of your vehicle. No need for a gun or bullet proof vest- just push a button and grill your assailant.

    • 0 avatar
      Morea

      I know you are being somewhat facetious with your second comment, but I would expect to see a rise in the wealthy driving lightly armored vehicles in New York as you find in other hot spots like the Middle East and South Africa. Bullet proof glass, run flat tires, engine protection, and, I suppose, emergency situation driving lessons to go along with it.

  • avatar
    Corky Boyd

    For all the elite types who want us to move back to the cities, playing soft with these thugs is not the way to do it. 20 years ago in the days of Mayor Dinkins this is what you would expect; a crime ridden city with filthy streets and smelly panhandlers. I don’t understand why Bloomberg is shirking his responsibility. Maybe he wants to leave the mayors office in peace and let DiBasio deal with it. Problem is, DiBasio is another Dinkins.

    NYC is a failed economic model. The only thing holding it together is a small number of very, very wealthy taxpayers. In a city of 8 million, just over 40,000 taxpayers pay half of the taxes. Lose them or a good number of them and NYC will look like Detroit.

  • avatar
    Lou_BC

    I’ve riden bikes most of my life and I’ve never liked the term “biker”. That always seemed more fitting term applied to full patch HA’s. I’ve always referred to myself as a rider. Perhaps that comes from my dirt biking roots.

    The whole “guns a blazing” argument really creeps me out. What are the odds that a bunch of “bikers” who are blocking off major streets, routinely and recklessly break the law, and ride unlicensed and/or unregistered bikes aren’t going to have their own arsenal?

    A lot of this fits into the fact that most drivers do not pay attention to what is happening around them. I’m sure that some one should of noticed the evolution of this situation and taken measures to have avoided this situation well before it got really bad.

    I’m not about to debate the exact statistics on guns, but to use the argument of the pro-gun proponents – the USA should be the safest place on the planet. The USA has the highest rate of gun ownership on the face of this world at “an average of 88 per 100 people.” Where is the USA when compared to the rest of the world?
    ” • But the US does not have the worst firearm murder rate – that prize belongs to Honduras, El Salvador and Jamaica. In fact, the US is number 28, with a rate of 2.97 per 100,000 people
    • Puerto Rico tops the world’s table for firearms murders as a percentage of all homicides – 94.8%. It’s followed by Sierra Leone in Africa and Saint Kitts and Nevis in the Caribbean”.

    As far as the “lets remove emotion from the debate” angle, that makes me want to laugh my ass off.
    An anti-gun proponent is “emotional” but a pro-gun proponent isn’t? It is physically/psychologically impossible to remove emotion. A study was done of people with injury or disease to the part of the brain that regulates emotion. These people were basically devoid of emotion and had normal “logic” pathways. They were incapable of making decisions.
    If guns made a place safe, the USA should be the safest place in the world – it isn’t.

    Oh, by the way – I own firearms.

    • 0 avatar
      MK

      You’re about the fifth or sixth person to bring up the completely illogical point of “..it’s a good thing he didn’t have a gun because the criminal minded bikers might have had one too!”

      Leaving aside for a moment the fact that its historically been damned near impossible for an NYC Resident who isn’t well connected or a member of the State to possess and carry a firearm, it makes no sense to rely on the gentle graces of a criminal mob for my protection and that of my family. A firearm is just another tool in the bag, once contact had been made and the mobs intentions have been made clear, I think he took the right approach of using the 5000 lb weapon to extricate himself from the area. You cannot reason with a mob, although some Korean shopkeepers in LA around April 1992 found that mobs get much less interested in trashing your particular shop when the rifle comes out. Just sayin.

      If you need more evidence, spend some time on Worldstar watching fight videos, this is mob behavior and ill take as many tools in my self-defense toolkit as possible.

      I’ve been on the interstate in FL when stunter groups came through, personally I find it entertaining to watch as we’re rolling along and I encourage them but make no mistake it’s definitely an “us vs them” situation if something goes wrong like it did with lien.

      I try to always be prepared and only twice in my 43 years have I had to point a loaded weapon at an aggressor (once on the highway when I was forced off the road by a roadrager) and I was DAMNED glad I had my pistol with me both times.

      I’m also glad I didn’t have to use it and I’m even happier that you’ve never been in a similar position, I just know I wasn’t expecting trouble those days but it wandered into me and could have ended my h worse than it did.

      • 0 avatar
        Lou_BC

        @MK – the point I was trying to make is in relation to escalation. If you pull out a gun in a mob situation, the odds are the situation will escalate. Basically, you have to be fully prepared and able to pull the trigger. How many people are going to be able to do that and keep calm and efficient with that firearm? It is easy for the armchair gunslingers to say that they will pull out their semi-auto and start emptying clips.

        Have any of you ever been in harms way?

  • avatar
    Landcrusher

    Two points.

    1. The term “brake checked” is a bit misleading. How about we use the term “blocked in” which is the plain English description? When you obviously detain someone against their will, you are asking to be killed. Put that out in the next bunch of PSA’s.

    2. Lets not over analyze the whole gun as a solution thing here. Waving a gun around is usually not a good idea, but having it or using it when necessary can be a life saver. Hypotheticals in these cases are worthless. The whole lot of them could have been hit by a meteor. So effing what? Ever heard of one riot, one ranger? You don’t necessarily need an arsenal to deal with a gang. OTOH, kicking a hornets nest can be stupid. The individuals involved get to choose their best course. The legal folks decide how to react, and we vote on legislators and propositions. If people keep voting as if its okay to do as the bikers did, they get to live with the results. One more reason for a weaker federal government.

    The anti emotion in legislating argument is a good one, and would be good advice for our legislators and voters to remember. Using reduction ad absurdism against the argument is silly, Lou.

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      @Landcrusher – emotion is impossible to remove from any debate. You can try but it is still lurking there somewhere. To be fully “unemotional” and look at only hard cold statistical evidence only happens in epidemiology and insurance. Politicians are the least logical or unemotional types on the planet.

      I do agree that this situation has been overanalyzed. Guns or not, a bad situation occurred. Would a handgun have made the situation better or worse?

      In a mob situation, all that is usually necessary is to pick off the mouthpiece’s’ or instigator’s’. That takes nerve but being alone in that kind of situation means you are going to lose. A gun might change things but instead of a beating and a SCI, you are going to have a pile of bodies.

      Unless one has been in some tough situations, it is easy to make comments. Each situation is unique.

      • 0 avatar
        Landcrusher

        Are you being purposely obtuse? No one is suggesting we attempt to act like automatons, only that emotion not be allowed to fog good judgement. .

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          Nope.
          Has anyone on this blog been “in harms way”?

          Unless you have, it can be difficult to understand or explain to those who haven’t.
          No different than being involved in any life or death situation whether it be my life or someone else’s.

          I am not suggesting we act like automatons. Someone played the “anti-gun crowd is emotional” card. I was pointing out that both sides ARE emotional.

          I also was pointed out that if you want to play dirty Harry, you need to have his lack of emotion.
          How else are you going to aim at another human being and end their life?

          • 0 avatar
            Landcrusher

            Yes, many of us have been in harms way. There are several soldiers and police and other people experienced with violence and extreme situations here. I know because I have been posting and reading here a long time. It’s a good point, but you can stop hammering on it. No one is arguing with it that I can see. The real discussion is about proper actions, if someone pays the part of Dirty Harry the better response would be to point out that most people can’t react like that and let them figure out the may be more like most people themselves.

            You said above, that the call to remove emotion from the debate made you laugh. Then started arguing a truism as a contradiction to an absurd straw man. You still are doing it.

            Lets simplify it. Do you think we should make legislative decisions based on our emotions in the aftermath of a terrible tragedy? If not, then we have no disagreement. Pardon my misunderstanding of your point. If so, lets agree to disagree.

          • 0 avatar
            Pch101

            Has anyone on this blog been “in harms way”?

            I have, and my position comes from that place.

            Some people have a kneejerk tendency to blame the winner of the fight, instead of who started the fight. I prefer to side with the victim.

            In essence, you’re arguing that the guy in the Range Rover is the “bad” guy because he wasn’t as badly hurt as one of his attackers.

            You seem indifferent to the fact that the guy who may be paralyzed for life was running with a pack of bullies with no regard for the law or for others who aren’t members of their club. If you behave as he did, then you can’t be surprised if you get hurt.

  • avatar
    Big Al from Oz

    They aren’t only a problem in the US. I really feel for any community that has to tolerate that form of extreme anti social behaviour.

    These guys are thugs and specks of sh!t on humanity.

    The reality is the law enforcement agencies are the only people who can reduce their grip on society.

    What this problem does highlight is – society has had this type of personality since year dot. What have we done wrong in not being able to manage them now.

    What has changed or is different in our system?

    http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2013/10/02/459172_gold-coast-news.html

    • 0 avatar
      DenverMike

      @BAFO- “Behaviour”? Really??? Is this You, or “Lou_BC”?

      I KNEW IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      You just gave it away.

      Or is this “Mikey”???????????????????

      Yup. Both

  • avatar
    blackbolt

    Being a long time NYC resident I’ve seen just about everything positive and negative happen in the Apple. This is just a blip on the radar of city history. The really divisive events were the ones that involved police shootings that were later found to be unjustified. Its a nice place to live but so is anywhere else until something happens. You deal with it and move on.

  • avatar
    cos999

    Arrests are coming:
    Oct 3, 2013 NYPOST:
    http://nypost.com/2013/10/03/cops-find-biker-who-beat-and-knifed-driver-after-chase/

    “Cops set to arrest biker thug No. 1″
    Reginald Chance, 38, of Brooklyn, has lawyered up and is expected to surrender by Friday, according to two law-enforcement sources speaking on condition of anonymity.

    • 0 avatar
      rudiger

      The Meises family (the guy Lien ran over and crippled with his RR) has retained a couple of lawyers, one of whom is high-profile, celebrity attorney Gloria Allred.

      Likewise, the Liens’ attorneys have released a statement professing their extreme fear for their lives during the entire confrontation.

      Looks like a big payday for the law profession coming.

  • avatar
    Morea

    In a few years our streets may look like the closing scene of Easy Rider.

  • avatar
    rudiger

    I was thinking more like the entire Road Warrior movie.

  • avatar
    tedward

    Funny, when I saw this video on liveleak I thought the driver was the aggressor. He was indeed surrounded by bikes, and he did rear end one of them (looks like the biker’s fault). Then, after stopping for a bit he RAN OVER several bikes, shoving the bikers out of the way at full throttle. Now, they may have been yelling at him or something before he used his SUV as a weapon on human beings, but it didn’t look like they were brandishing firearms at him first. I would expect any large group of men to chase down someone in that circumstance, and probably hurt the guy afterwards. I heard his kid was in the car, but that still doesn’t mean he made the right decision, just that at best he was in a panic and could easily have killed someone.

    I have personal experience with these guys (I used to be neighbors with a few members, different group, when I lived in the Bronx so I’ve even met them) and frankly I fail to see much difference between what they do and a classic car procession. They don’t get a permit for sure, but by blocking traffic first they create a safer situation than would be the case with just one or two guys splitting traffic and pulling wheelies. They may look scary, and they certainly aren’t to be messed with casually, but really what they are is a bunch of driving, and usually motorsport, enthusiasts and that’s about it.

    Odd that it seems like everyone is jumping up and down about some guys out biking with their buddies beating up a guy who attacked several of them with a deadly weapon. Looks to me like they should be faulted for not placing him under citizen’s arrest instead of just hurting him.

    edit: I don’t mean to paint them as angels, I’m sure the bikes are cobbled together from suspect parts and criminal records are probably common, I’m just saying that in this case the blame may be misplaced.

    • 0 avatar
      burgersandbeer

      So in your edit you went from harmless motorsport enthusiasts to a mob of felons?

      I have no idea how you can equate this to a classic car procession. The lack of a permit and police assistance in closing the streets is not a minor detail. These groups commonly split lanes at triple digit speeds, run every red light they encounter, and ride on sidewalks. They do not stop for police. Their bikes have no plates, and at least the rider who was seriously hurt was not welcome on MA roads until 2017. I suspect many of them have lengthy histories with their local DMV. Reports on this say the police received about 200 911 calls regarding this group. Is this the behavior you see at classic car processions?

      A large angry mob does not need to brandish knives or firearms to give the impression of a lethal threat. Maybe if it was a legit accident with one of them you could think about talking first, but the riders were deliberately trying to stop the RR. I think most reasonable people would react the same way as Lien.

    • 0 avatar
      mcs

      Here’s a more complete video showing the very start of the incident. The RR looks pretty innocent traveling in the center lane when the bikes come up to it’s left and right. I noticed something that hasn’t been reported yet. Before the brake-check incident, one of the riders, the guy that later does the brake check, comes up beside the RR, then moves into the same lane next to the RR and nearly forces him into the bikes to his right. Basically lane sharing with the RR before he moves ahead and brake-checks the RR. Check out the video – the bike moves into the RR’s lane at about 00:19.

      http://goo.gl/XuInZS

      • 0 avatar
        rudiger

        Uhm, no. That just shows the start of that particular video. It doesn’t show what happened before it. Lien may (or may not) have done something prior to the start of the video, which could have triggered the bikers’ aggressive response, whether it was warranted or not. Prior to the start of the video, he might have just completed cutting through the pack of slower moving bikers at an aggressive and dangerous high speed, and the video picks up just as the bikers begin catching up to the RR to retaliate.

        What the bikers did in the video was obviously wrong, but it’s not certain Lien is completely devoid of any wrongdoing, either (despite how his lawyers are portraying him to the media).

        • 0 avatar
          mcs

          >> Uhm, no.

          Uhm yes. This is the initial encounter. Looking at the video, it looks as though the bikers are trying to clear the RR from the center lane. There are at least two bikers shooting video and the cameras were running for the entire ride. If there were any prior issues with the RR, you can bet these guys would have the video and would have posted it. There is no video because there was no prior incident.

          Furthermore, if you pay close enough attention to the video, you’ll see that numerous bikers further ahead in the pack pass the RR and keep going without incident. If there had been a prior encounter, why did they keep going? That blows your little theory out of the water.

  • avatar
    rpn453

    Jack, you got a mention during an e-mail conversation with my buddies about this subject. So I’ll share that part of it.

    From: XXX
    To: XXX; XXX
    Subject: RE: Speed Kills Your Pocketbook
    Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2013 17:30:30 -0600

    Did you see this one?

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/new-cars/auto-news/man-charged-after-motorcyclists-pursue-assault-man-driving-with-family-after-encounter-on-nyc-highway/article14629449/

    It would have been far more entertaining if the guy in the Land Rover had been a skilled, aggressive driver, taking out bikes left and right. Jack Baruth would have been perfect for the role!

    From: XXX
    To: XXX; XXX
    Subject: RE: Speed Kills Your Pocketbook
    Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2013 18:29:09 -0600

    Yeah, that would not end well for the bikers if that was any one of us in the Range Rover.

    I was enraged just watching it. I’d be in jail for sure if I was ever put into a situation like that.

    From: XXX
    To: XXX; XXX
    Subject: RE: Speed Kills Your Pocketbook
    Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2013 19:14:50 -0600

    Imagine being in your 3/4-ton Dodge!

  • avatar
    mnm4ever

    I am shocked and amazed at how many of you think that running over and killing or paralyzing these guys is an appropriate reaction to this situation. This is just crazy. I am not defending the riders, they were being total asshats and absolutely risking their own lives by trying to block traffic so they can stunt ride in public. I really hate riders who act this way, and they give all riders a bad name because of it. But Jesus, they still don’t deserve to be killed or run over on purpose. Haven’t any of you had someone get hurt or killed doing something stupid? Do you feel better about it because they were being stupid at the time? Haven’t any of you ever done something stupid when you were young yourself?? And of course even though no gun was even involved here, we have to have all the pro-gun nuts out here talking about how they would shoot all the riders because obviously anyone who does anything stupid that scares you should die for it, right?

    And seriously, watch the video, really watch it without your preconceived hate for stunt riders. The Range Rover driver wasn’t even really brake checked, the rider was just trying to stop him and all the other cars on the road so they could stunt. The Range Rover looked like he was trying to get past them, which is what I would be doing too, just to not get stuck in the traffic. The bike got in front of him anyway, and slowed down, the Rover could have stopped but was being aggressive. If any of you have driven in New York, or around New Yorkers, clearly you know that its practically a given that he was being aggressive. And he clipped the bike. No, the Rover was NOT at fault, but that was it, he was stopped, traffic was stopped, the other riders stopped to check on their friends, etc. Where do you see them beating on the Range Rover or slashing tires?? Where is there danger here, or a threat? It was an accident, caused by the bikers being stupid and the Range Rover being angry, typical road rage, and no one was seriously hurt. Call 911, keep your doors locked and windows rolled up if you are scared. It could have ended right here.

    That’s when the Range Rover driver floored it, rolled up over at least one motorcycle and ran over a human being, crushing his legs and spine, and ran. And you guys seriously think that’s the right answer?? I bet you the Range Rover driver was either scared he was going to get in trouble for hitting the motorcycle, or just plain pissed off typical New Yorker and didn’t feel like waiting longer now that they were involved in an accident.

    And the argument about how he was with his wife and daughter so therefore any action he takes to keep them safe is completely justifiable is total crap. Sure you have to keep them safe, but you have to be reasonable about it, just like with guns. Running down people and running over motorcycles isn’t reasonable. If he really was concerned with their safety then when the motorcycles swarmed around him then he would have slowed down or stopped and let them go on. Regardless of it it was legal or not, that was the safe thing to do. He was road raging on the riders and they were road raging on him and it escalated.

    • 0 avatar
      Landcrusher

      Why do you assume a hate for stunt riders?

      I don’t think the RR driver had any idea what these guys were doing which is why he bolted. I think he was afraid. I think he later realizes he panicked, then didn’t want to hurt anyone else. We may find out later, but maybe not.

      All this is academic IMO. If some did want to carjack a RR, rob, assault, kidnap the occupants, then the driver of that car isn’t supposed to cooperate by allowing himself to be stopped. It’s his duty to drive over those bikes. The riders, being self important idiots, assumed this guy knew they just wanted the highway. He assumed they intended violence.

      How do you intend to have a civilization where you blame the driver? It doesn’t work. If the rule is to cooperate with the law breakers to the point of endangering your family then civilization will cease.

    • 0 avatar
      Chris FOM

      They got off their bikes and surrounded his car. It likely wasn’t to swap insurance cards. On top of that, it’s now known that the RR driver eventually stopped because his tires were flat due to them being slashed after the initial accident. So now we have it established that the RR driver was, at minimum, surrounded by a pack of bikers who were slashing his tires, and who later beat his car, opened the door, and beat the crap out of him. There is also other video of the same crew getting into altercations with other drivers. There is no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt. They were violent from the start.

      Did the guy deserved to be paralyzed? No. Is it unfortunate? Absolutely. Do I fault the RR driver for acting how he did? Not in the least. Had I been there I would have likely responded in the exact same way. I wouldn’t have intentionally hurt anyone, but being surrounded by a mob of angry, violent bikes with my wife and daughter in the back seat would have been terrifying and I’d have done whatever I could to get them out of harm’s way immediately.

      • 0 avatar
        Landcrusher

        “Did the guy deserve to be paralyzed”

        There is a lot of nuance in language. I am now thinking that we might be causing harm with this concession to pity.

        One way to read the word deserve is to imply that the punishment should fit the crime. The rider, we believed, was merely trying to steal the RRs right of way. He deserved a ticket, not paralysis. True, but he wasn’t sentenced to paralysis, he got paralyzed after doing something stupid. Just like if he failed a bike stunt at high speed.

        If we want to educate the reader towards wisdom, shouldn’t we all agree on the more harsh reading? Shouldn’t we concede that since the outcome was a very possible one given the actions he took, and that his actions were a foolish gamble for an unlawful purpose with little real reward, that he deserved what he got? Is this not like playing on the railroad tracks? Skydiving without a reserve chute? Joking about a bomb at the airport? Using a squirt gun on a cop? Racing a bike with bad tires at night in the fog?

        In other words, isn’t this a case where we set an example so that the next guy contemplating such a stunt has one more reason not to do it because we will all think he he was being a stupid jerk and not cool?

        I really have no issue with guys pulling stunts. I think it’s a shame that there is no place for them to do it legally. However, blocking the road isn’t the answer anymore than taking the city council hostage to get a permit which might get you shot and also deservedly so.

    • 0 avatar
      Pch101

      “The bike got in front of him anyway, and slowed down, the Rover could have stopped but was being aggressive.”

      What’s aggressive is a group of scofflaws trying to take over a public highway. If they want to ride like that, then they should go to a track. The roads are for everyone, not for an aggressive clique.

      I think that my bleeding heart credentials are pretty solid, but if I was surrounded by a mob, then I’d want to take out as many of them as possible. I’m not inclined to wait around to allow the mob to make all of my decisions for me. A mob is a mob.

    • 0 avatar
      mnm4ever

      I will respond to all of you at once… I didn’t BLAME the RR driver. I clearly feel the bikers were in the wrong. And maybe the RR driver was scared, although honestly, when a bunch of sportbikes ride in a herd like that, speeding around and popping wheelies, they are clearly not out to kidnap or carjack you, especially not on the open highway, so you have to be a pretty big chicken to be “scared” of them. My bet is as a techie driving a RR in NYC, he is more cocky than chicken, and wasn’t fearful that they were carjacking him.

      If I was in that situation?? No, I would never do what he did. Because I am man enough to slow down and get away from the idiots, or just let them get on with their annoying stunt riding while I curse loudly at being delayed. My wife and kids would probably love to see them doing tricks anyways. I would take the truly safe route, which is to avoid conflict.

      Unfortunately, in his case it escalated beyond that, and the outcome was what it was. Once again, I don’t blame the RR driver, but I am not going to come on here like a bunch of others and write comments how the rider got what he deserved, how I would run more of them down if possible, how I would have shot at them, or would have done exactly what that guy did, etc. Fact is, both the riders and the driver were being d!cks and its too bad that guy has to be paralyzed for life because of it.

      • 0 avatar
        Pch101

        “I didn’t BLAME the RR driver.”

        “Fact is, both the riders and the driver were being d!cks”

        A bit of a contradiction there.

        You are blaming the Range Rover driver. You believe that it was unreasonable for him to want to drive on the Westside Highway, which is a public expressway.

        In effect, you think that it’s OK for bikers to take a road hostage, and that the rest of us are duty-bound to respect that. Sorry, but those bikers have no right to claim ownership of the road or to hinder the movements of others. They were violating several laws, and they should be punished accordingly.

        • 0 avatar
          mnm4ever

          So you think the proper punishment for impeding traffic flow is to be run over, paralyzed, or killed? Nice.

          With all the blue hairs in Florida that impede traffic down here, we could get rid of a lot of people this way. Good idea.

          • 0 avatar
            Pch101

            The biker who got hit was part of the mob. He was on the receiving end of the victim’s self-defense. If his group hadn’t participated in an assault, then no defense would have been necessary and he wouldn’t have been hurt.

            I’m curious what exactly you think that the Range Rover driver was supposed to do when he was being attacked by a mob. He did what he could to escape. There wouldn’t have been a problem if he hadn’t been forced to escape in the first place.

          • 0 avatar
            mnm4ever

            He was in that situation because he didn’t want to stop or slow down in the first place. And I already said, if I was in that situation I would just slow down and let them go on, it just isn’t worth starting a road rage incident over something like this. There wouldn’t have been a problem at all if he just moved away, even though the riders were breaking the law by blocking the roadway.

            But then, as I said, since he was in that situation, being “attacked” as you put it, then call 911 and drive forward slowly. Don’t floor it, aiming at people along the way. It isn’t really clear what was happening around the RR at that point. Maybe they just slashed his tires, being a$$holes. Maybe they banged up the car. But we can’t really see exactly what was happening to make him run over the guy at that point. But he is in a big SUV, he can drive slowly, avoid accidentally running someone over, the riders aren’t going to be able to hold the RR back. It is a lot easier to fix slashed tires than crushed spinal cords.

          • 0 avatar
            Pch101

            “He was in that situation because he didn’t want to stop or slow down in the first place.”

            Why should he not be allowed to drive on the Westside Highway?

            You claim not to side with the bikers, but you obviously do. You think that they have a right to stake a claim on territory, and then prevent others from using their turf. I’m sorry, but that’s just complete madness — they don’t own the road, and no one should allow them to think for even one minute that they do.

          • 0 avatar
            Landcrusher

            It appears to me he didn’t bolt until they actually tried to stop him. The blocking of his escape is likely what will be found to be the proximate cause of the incident.

            In the end, the driver will be found not at fault. The guy blocking him will be guilty of unlawful detention, and various other guilty bikers will get punished for various offenses.

            The paralysis is, for the umpteenth time, not a punishment, it’s an outcome. Diving into shallow water head first doesn’t get you sentenced to paralysis, you just possibly end up that way as result of a bad choice.

          • 0 avatar
            rudiger

            It seems supremely ironic that there is an overwhelming ‘mob mentality’ of posters who feel that Mieses got exactly what was coming to him, and the rest of the bikers were all deserving of being run over and crippled by Lien’s expensive SUV primarily for the actions of a few in the video, as well.

            It’s ironic because that kind of mentality seems to be not far removed from what the bikers are accused of doing to Lien when they surrounded and terrorized him and his family for, supposedly, no apparent reason (which is far from having been proven to be the case).

          • 0 avatar
            Pch101

            The predator became the prey. You’ll have to excuse me for not weeping.

          • 0 avatar
            Landcrusher

            Rudiger,
            I don’t think you are getting my point on the word “deserve”.

            At any rate, there is no irony. Ironic would be if we purposely slowed their Internet connections to anything other than this thread so they would have to enjoy our awesome prose. Without interfering.

      • 0 avatar
        Landcrusher

        “And maybe the RR driver was scared, although honestly, when a bunch of sportbikes ride in a herd like that, speeding around and popping wheelies, they are clearly not out to kidnap or carjack you, especially not on the open highway, so you have to be a pretty big chicken to be “scared” of them.”

        The rub here is clearly. Clearly they are people not to be trusted to have good judgement and be self restrained. Clearly they are capable of hooliganism, vandalism, and after the fact, assault and battery.

        We are all impressed with your manliness at your keyboard. I find most appeals to manliness suspect from the start. Manliness was a proper ethic in the Viking age I suppose, but not really since.

        As for the paralysis thing, see my questions above and respond to them if you wish. it appears here you ignored them.

      • 0 avatar
        slavuta

        @mnm4ever
        you speaking my mind. This guy Lien had no sense of how to behave when yellow jackets all around. Now, he should pay for that. He should share a cell with the guy who smashed his window

    • 0 avatar
      tedward

      Thank you mm. That was exactly my reaction to this. On the other hand maybe there is a video that shows tire slashing etc… I haven’t seen it.

  • avatar
    CJinSD

    Vigilante Justice, coming to a theater near you!

  • avatar
    Lou_BC

    @Landcrusher – if you are talking about lawmaking and knee jerk responses,yes I am all in favour of letting calmer heads prevail.

    I had posted a response to the “emotional” which disappeared from this site so I’ll try again.
    The pro-gun types are saying that the anti-gun types are emotional. I was pointing out that in that context or any context, you cannot totally remove emotion from the equation.

    If the “dirty Harry” types want to open fire on all of the bikers, was that an emotional response?
    To be truly effective at opening fire in a crowd least you were to be overwhelmed by your assailants requires calm.
    I’ll try to be more specific next time for you.

    pshs101 seems to think that there are those that are hating on the person that “won” the fight or came out better in the fight. In his twisted logic, that means I am hating on the SUV driver because he got some bruises and the other an SCI.

    No one really “won” this altercation or came out less bloodied.


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