By on June 28, 2013

3.0-liter EcoDiesel V-6 engine

If you want a diesel engine but don’t want to spring for a heavy-duty pickup, your only option is the Ram 1500.

 

At a Chrysler event today, the folks at Ram revealed that the 3.0L diesel V6 will cost $2,850 more than the 5.7L Hemi engine on select trim levels. Pickuptrucks.com reports that final power figures are 240 horsepower and 420 lb/ft of torque, with as much as 28 mpg expected on the highway cycle.

Also announced was a new 6.4L Hemi powertrain and a new coil-spring rear suspension with load-leveling for HD models. This replaces the leaf spring setup on previous 2500 HD trucks, while the 3500 HD keeps its leaf springs but can also be had with the air suspension.

Get the latest TTAC e-Newsletter!

106 Comments on “Ram 1500 Diesel Engine To Carry $2,850 Premium...”


  • avatar
    KixStart

    Ouch. Since the hemi isn’t the base engine (per Edmunds), doesn’t this put the price of the diesel at about $3500?

    • 0 avatar
      Dan

      And if previous pricing is any indication, the diesel will also be exempt from another couple thousand dollars in incentives.

      Saving 20-25% on gas is nice but when it costs $5000 up front you’d better be burning a lot of gas.

      • 0 avatar
        See 7 up

        Yeah, but if Cummins diesel sales are indicative, people will spend the money for the “man” factor of a diesel. At least in SoCal anyway.

        The Hemi is a pretty amazing option price wise. Heck, under 20 yrs ago, a Viper had the same power. Unless you tow, it is hard to beat the Hemi and even then most probably need to pony up to the Cummins option just for the transmission and rear end.

        • 0 avatar
          stuki

          The Cummins tows lots more than any available gas engine. And it is manly-manly by virtue of being a miniature long haul engine. I doubt a Fiat minivan diesel will neither outtow the Hemi, nor drive it’s acolytes to install through the bed stacks to showcase it in a similar fashion.

          MPG highway at 28 is quite impressive for a half ton, but the latest Hemi/8 speed is 22 or so. And the gas V6 25. My guess is, the 3.0 diesel will tow somewhere between the two gassers, and get better mileage doing it. If mileage when towing heavy holds up much better versus EPA/empty than similar for the gassers, it will probably be a hit. Otherwise, I suspect only the “I love diesel for the smell, or the Euroness, or whatever” crowd will buy.

          And, if dirt cheap frac gas manage to entice the long haul trade to switch to CNG engines rather than fight ever tighter diesel emissions regs, suddenly diesel may not be so easy to find anymore either…..

          Who knows. The new Ram is quite a nice truck regardless of powertrain. A <$30,000 truck with the same tranny as a brand new Bentley, and largely the same suspension as a Land Cruiser ( :) ), is quite something.

          • 0 avatar
            Big Al from Oz

            The VM will tow as much as the Hemi. HP isn’t what work an engine can achieve. Not only that have a look at where a diesel gets its torque relative to a gas engine.

            Even though manufacturers are producing more torque at lower rpms in a gas engine, you can’t beat a diesel for work.

            Outside of the US many trucks use 3 litre class diesels that perform the work of what HDs are used for in the US. They might not accelerate as quick but they can work everyday, year on year.

            Fully loaded these trucks will still sit on highway speeds as well.

            Ram should improve the chassis, suspension of the VM diesel pickup to offer more payload. It shouldn’t be hard to improve a 1/2 ton pickup to perform as a global pickup.

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            @BAF0 – Global truck perform the work of US HDs in their dreams. Even then, they better wake up and apologize for even dreaming it…

            Show REAL examples instead of these vague fairy tales of mythical trucks from the Land Down Undah.

          • 0 avatar
            Big Al from Oz

            @DenverMike
            Another moment in the DENVERMIKE blogoshpere?

            Who mentioned HDs?

            Keep with topic. PUTC has some article on HDs if you want to discuss them.

          • 0 avatar
            wmba

            @ Big Al from Oz

            You say: ” HP isn’t what work an engine can achieve”

            Totally incorrect. Horsepower IS exactly that. It is the rate of doing work. No ifs ands or buts, UNECE regs or anything else.

            Time for you to get off your hobbyhorse and at least get your fundamentals correct.

          • 0 avatar
            Big Al from Oz

            @wmba
            You are totally correct. HP is work achieved. I should have been more accurate. Torque is the amount of effort required to achieve work. HP is the speed at which work is achieved. Sorry.

            @DenverMike
            I wasn’t talking global utes. I was talking trucks outside of the US ie, (Euro)Iveco, Transit, Fiat Ducato, VW etc.
            These trucks use 3 litre and smaller diesels that are used to do what HDs are used for in the US. In Australia anything that is not a van or ute is termed a truck, ie, LDT, MDT, HDT. These cover a large range of vehicles that you call pickups.

            Asian LDT trucks are similar, but of stronger construction than Euro trucks, that is more commercial in build. HDs in Australia are toys, novelty items for someone to tow a 5th wheel horse float or RV. Trucks (as I described) are used for work.

            What you have to remember the Euro and Asian trucks are designed for a slightly different application than their US counterparts. Some HDs in the US are also used as SUVs, like we use them in Australia

            The same can be said for a global midsizer. Priority of application is work first, hence the larger payload than the US half ton pickup which is designed as a SUV daily driver first. We do use global midsizers as SUVs as well. But in countries outside of Australia, Euro region etc they are used as work trucks. People can’t afford SUVs like you can in you homeland of Canada and us in Australia.

            Niky explained this to you the other day.

          • 0 avatar
            Big Al from Oz

            @DenverMike
            I’ll give in———–LDT’s.

          • 0 avatar
            George B

            @Stuki – I live in the area of North Texas where “dirt cheap frac gas” originated. Most convenience stores sell diesel. None offer CNG. Drilling large numbers of horizontal wells into shale and then using hydraulic fracturing to break the source rock and release the gas is fairly expensive compared to drilling a few wells into a pocket of gas. It would be more accurate to say that horizontal drilling/hydraulic fracturing greatly expanded the potential supply of moderate price gas. For most drivers the cost of the high-pressure tanks for CNG exceed the cost savings of switching away from diesel or gasoline. City buses and garbage trucks use CNG and LNG around here mostly to get credit for trying to to reduce local air pollution.

            @ Big Al – It would be more typical to put a heavy load on a trailer pulled by a US pickup truck than to put a heavy load directly in the bed itself. The exception would be an occasional load of very dense material like rocks or concrete. I don’t think the engine/transmission vs. payload comparison is directly applicable. US pickup trucks are somewhat overbuilt to handle abuse in a fairly litigious society plus the high ground clearance provides an advantage in deep snow and mud. However, I would like the option of buying a car-based ute too.

          • 0 avatar
            stuki

            @BAFO, are you sure that 3.0 diesel will be tow rated for 10,000+ lbs like the Hemi/8speed is now. Quite impressive if that’s the case. And quite slow going uphill, I reckon :)

            As for HP vs torque, in first approximation, it’s really a gearing issue. Apply a 2 to 1 reduction to the Hemi, and the output curve looks not all that dissimilar to the Cummins. Meaning, with the kind of wide spreads in trannies like the 8speed ZF, the Hemi will just use a lower gear and still keep pulling. Using more fuel than a diesel, and dissipating the overage as heat.

            Once you have engines with 400 HP, heat management is really the big killer of sustained towing performance. The big Cummins diesel with the helicopter rotor sized fan, can probably keep itself cool using most of it’s 400 horses sustained, even in fairly warm weather and going uphill slowly. But I would be surprised if a car derived diesel, designed for max efficiency and driveability in light duty use, is going to be built the same way.

            The other advantage of typical diesels for towing, is that their power curves are fairly flat; meaning their torque curves peak almost at idle, and fall steadily from there. So, if you’re pulling uphill and start slowing, your engine will pull harder and harder (tq gets higher and higher) the more your rpms drop. On a typical gasser, you generally tow at or below torque peak (unless you’re a ricer and simply love highway cruising at 6000+ rpms), so once you start slowing, it becomes a vicious circle of lower speed = lower torque…. Until you downshift and race back up to speed on increasing tq torque, then upshift and start slowing again……. Doable, but not relaxing, nor easy on the tranny with all those max power shifts.

            But man, 10000 lbs tow rating and 28mpg empty; does sound like something that ought to be attractive to someone…

          • 0 avatar
            stuki

            @George B

            Long haul is one of those fields where a pretty sizable share of costs are directly attributable to fuel cost. Operators there are willing to pay more upfront to save on fuel over a rig’s life cycle. Miles per dollar if you wish.

            And it is also a field where fuel distribution is in actuality much more concentrated than retail fuel sales. There are truck stops in every nook and cranny of the country, but they are on major truck routes. And they are generally large, with space to install cng “pumps” should demand be there.

            Now, the trucks, as opposed to passenger cars, have space to spare for the less dense CNG. Currently, they mostly limit the amount of fuel they carry for weight, not space, reasons.

            So, you may be right about right now, since cheap gas and pricier diesel is a fairly new phenomenon; hence current CNG drive trains and fuel distribution networks are in a much lower state of tune, so to speak, than their diesel equivalent.

            BUT, Miles per dollar is going up for CNG fuel. Dollars to buy and maintain the power-trains are falling. And CNG, being less dense,is less economical to ship abroad, hence will be less affected by rising demand from China and elsewhere than more easy to ship fuels.

            So, at some point, extrapolating from recent data, it will become viable to switch to CNG; probably first for long haul rigs. And chances are, due to the presence of a pretty substantial chicken and egg problem, that once it becomes rational for some to do so, it may be one of those developments that reaches a pretty substantial tipping point; where once a certain mass of early adopter filling stations sell the stuff, more truckers will start using it, leading more stations to sell etc., etc. Of course nothing is certain, but this looks like one of those areas that COULD see a pretty big “phase change” occur over a fairly short period of time, once movement occurs at all.

          • 0 avatar
            Big Al from Oz

            @Stuki
            I don’t see any reason why it shouldn’t have the same tow rating as the Hemi. It puts out very similar torque values. Here in Australia the VM V6 Grand Cherokee has the same tow rating as the Hemi. The Pentastar Grand Cherokee tow limit is smaller.

            But, on the other side of the coin, who would want to tow 10 000lbs with a 1/2 ton pickup?

            I spend a lot of time in the US, I was born and part of my schooling done there. I really don’t see that many 1/2 ton pickups with scratches in there beds. When I go to Lowes or Home Depot I a pickup towing a small utility trailer.

            Towing, yes I do see towing but I have yet to see a 1/2 ton pickup towing at it’s limit. Some probably do, but I as yet witnessed this.

            Where the diesel will win out is it’s economy. Even if it was towing that 10 000lbs like you quizzed the diesel will more than double the FE of the Hemi and still get the job done almost as quick as the Hemi.

        • 0 avatar
          DenverMike

          @BAF0 – OK, now you’re getting more specific. Slightly. Now which trucks do you mean EXACTLY???

          Industrial medium duties? Really? Vs our 3/4 ton “HD” pickups? Do the meet or come close to SAE standards?

          And niky knows less about trucks than you do.

          • 0 avatar
            Big Al from Oz

            @DenverMike
            LDT is LDT.

            So now Canada (and the US) have home handy man standard vehicles? or what about trade standard vehicles?

            Industrial standard what? Electric motors?

            What is a industrial standard vehicle? I’ve heard of commercial vehicles. Is industrial standard like a diesel electric in a train? I know you are talking about forklifts and scissorlifts.

            Maybe you should use google and understand the concept of standards.

            When you learn about standards post a blog that you have comprehended what standards are. Its not like saying my car has more hp or torque or a longer bed.

            So explain to me when you have learnt about standards, how SAE is applied to vehicle classification.

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            @BAF0 – Is this a new topic now? Electric engines? Handyman standards? Forklifts & scissor? Can we get back on topic???

            What are the EXACT trucks you’re referring to AND what are their specs? It didn’t sound like a complicated question. Answer it or quit.

          • 0 avatar
            Big Al from Oz

            @DenverMike
            As previously posted LDT, MDT, HDT. Google it.

            I teach you about vehicles classification.

            The first thing you must realise vehicles aren’t measured and gauged by SAE standards.

            The designed application of the vehicle is how they are classified.

            CAR: Cars do have regional terminology to express classification.

            The term car is used to express a light vehicle that is used primarly to transport people and is built using unitary body construction (generally). Cars are broke down into different sub-classes ie, small, medium, large. Car are also classified by the type of configuration of the doors ie coupe, sedan, station wagon, etc. Cars are also broken down into ‘value’ classes ie prestige, luxury. There are sports cars as well, but these can be prestige or luxury. Google SAE standards and I don’t think you will find this information.

            Small Commercial Vehicles, ie utes, pickups, bakkies, etc. These vehicle use a range of construction techniques ie, full chassis, half chassis, unitary, etc. These vehicles are intended for very light commercial use. The range and quality varies considerably and is probably the most ‘grey’ area of vehicle classification. Most are designed for the primary application first, then designed with passenger comfort similar to a car. In the US small pickups (midsize and 1/2 ton) are designed as a SUV alternative and to drive on reasonable surfaces.

            In the rest of the world outside of NAFTA pickups are midsize or are built on a small/medium car platform (except Australia-large). The car based pickups are much lighter than their global midsize cousins and are built to carry similar loads as carried by American full size pickups. Midsizers are much more rugged and are used outside of the OECD economies as a trucks and personal transport. These vehicles are slightly more rugged than their US full size and mid size counterparts due to the expected application. Global midsizers are rated to carry the same weight as the bottom end of the HD bracket in the US.

            LDTs (LCV) is a Light Duty Truck, in Australia I do know they are rated to carry anything from 3 000lbs to 10 000lbs. They are full chassis with a truck like small diesel and forward control.

            MDT and on and on. If you want more information on vehicle classes google it.

            Niky pretty much explained to you what I’ve just described, get the picture.

            If you don’t understand concepts and terminology and have to create your own to try and sound intelligent. Just google want you want to learn. Its quite easy.

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            You keep dancing around the subject, but you which “world” trucks are you directly comparing to US Heavy Duty pickups? Like EXACTLY??? Make, Model, Year…

            It shouldn’t be that difficult.

          • 0 avatar
            Big Al from Oz

            @DenverMike
            Re-read my initial comment, then go onto google and work it out. Then come back with a response. Hint—–”LDT”

            Remember: Vehicles are not classified by SAE standards.

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            Specific trucks please…

            I’ll wait right here………………………………………………..

          • 0 avatar
            Big Al from Oz

            @DenverMike
            Sorry, I posted the blog under the post.

            @DenverMike
            I’ll give in———–LDT’s.

            That is the acronym which describes; Light Duty Truck(s).

            Again, if you read my above posts you should be able to answer your own question.

            Better still, I will ‘spoon feed’ you like most other occasions.

            Wait for it……………..the vehicles are……… Iveco, Ford, VW, Fiat, Hino, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Mercedes, etc. Pretty much most vehicle manufacturers.

            You should be able to find a way to determine the models of LDTs that these manufacturer produce.

            There is a lot of cross breeding between the manufacturers in this class of vehicle. Similar to Chev and GMC pickups.

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            @BAF0 – OK. Last chance… If I have to choose a world “3.0 liter class” or “LDT” Vs. a US Heavy Duty pickup, it won’t be pretty…………………………………….

          • 0 avatar
            Big Al from Oz

            @DenverMike
            Again, another moment in the DENVERMIKE blogoshpere of misinformation?

            Who said you have to buy a LDT? Boy, do you have to take every discussion out of context, then turn it into a “ME” topic.

            Read what I wrote. Wow, its hard for you today Michael, isn’t it:)

            Most of the vehicles that are global LDTs are stopped by UAW sanctioned chicken tax and technical barriers.

            What I stated was the 3 litre class LDTs in an Australian application is pretty much what HDs are used for in the US.

            Imagine if companies could get a hold of these vehicles in the US. Loaded they can drive at freeway speeds and get superior fuel economy over a diesel HD, let alone a gas powered HD.

            They will be arriving soon, most probably most from Mexico (Ducato).

          • 0 avatar
            jaje

            @Big Al – don’t feed that troll. He tried to argue with me that the entire world’s transportation industry is “forced” to use diesel fuel and if they had the choice they would have gone over to gasoline but for the “conspiracy”. His “proof” is when he drives around his CA neighborhood the local utility company uses gas trucks for their big rigs (. It was such a convincing argument I had to stop arguing with such sheer brilliance.

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            @Jaje – I don’t care what the world’s transportation does. Anytime you can spec a truck with a gas engine, you do. This isn’t 1992 any more. Try to keep up with the times.

            Diesels used to have all the advantages, but emissions killed all that. Plus diesel fuel lost most of its lubricity.

            And now they want HUGE Dollars for the diesel option too….

            No one knows about the future longevity of the current batch of diesels. But if you feel lucky, I’m not stopping you.

            Just a couple ‘relatively’ minor repairs and your “savings” are washed away.

          • 0 avatar
            Big Al from Oz

            @jaje
            The guy is paid to do a job I disagree with. I do know not only the UAW/CAW like DenverMike is affiliated to but the manufacturers drop blogs as well as motoring journalists. These site are quite interesting.

            DenverSpin is deliberately misinforming. I believe in freedom like most do around the world irrespective of our religion, politics.

            The best way for the world to progress and achieve is to open up markets. The auto industry around the globe can be quite protected, even with FTA’s. The term FTA in many cases is a farce.

            I’m hoping I’ll be able to make DenverMike see the light and realise that there are 7 billion people in the world who want to progress to have a similar standard of living like we do in Austrlai/Canada/US. He appears to be oblivious to what it can be like for the majority around the world.

            He seems to think that the world wants to be like America. But he doesn’t realise that infrastructure, money and mostly culture dictates what we use as transportation and how we live. Everyone would love to be consumers of ‘western goods’.

            He claims to have been to Spain 36 times and yet he can’t fathom that there isn’t a full size pickup market in Europe. Did he not realise the roads in a Spanish city/town/village are very tight.

            He should go to Asia that is even tighter than Europe and the drivers are crazier. I rented a motorbike and drove around areas of SE Asia. I was voted at work most likely not to return home.

            The guy might be in an asylum with net access, I don’t know.

            He now appears not to understand basic mechanics and physics. The problem is tries to portray authority and knowledge in his writing, yet his knowledge in many areas is non-existent or distorted.

            It’s like he sees a tree with apples so he assumes all tress must have apples.

            Thanks for you insight on DenverMike UAW.

      • 0 avatar
        KixStart

        And diesel fuel is more expensive, if I’m remenbering correctly.

        If gas is $3.6 and diesel $3.8 but gas mpg is 17 and diesl is 22, one could save almost $600/year (at 15K miles/year). That’s something like a 5-year payback unless, as you say, you miss out on incentives or can only get the diesel in certain expensive trim levels.

        • 0 avatar
          Crabspirits

          Here in Chicagoland (most expensive in the nation), diesel is far cheaper than regular gasoline right now. The prices for each will swap over the year, depending on supply and demand. Right now, it makes more sense to drive my 3500 Cummins dually Ram than my LS400 (even burning regular).

          This is a pretty good deal, if that premium sticks and you don’t lose out on incentives you would otherwise get with the gasser, that is. Diesels on these trucks are sought mainly for their torque luxuries, not superior fuel economy. If all you do is pull a trailer or haul, then it’s the sensible upgrade for a lot of people.

          By the way, that’s the coolest oil pan I’ve ever seen in my life. Looks like a wound on a tree, with an almost fallen drop of sap frozen in time.

        • 0 avatar
          xflowgolf

          You’re ignoring the residual value of a diesel truck though. Yes it’s more $ up front, but it’s worth more $ on the back end as well in resale. Look up diesel 3/4 tons compared to equivalent gassers 5+ years old (or TDI VW’s compared to gassers for that matter). Many trucks also rack up LOTS of miles, so 15K/year may be low… rather than years, perhaps a better breakeven calculation should be based off miles.

          • 0 avatar
            NoGoYo

            Diesel engines run for much longer it seems…must be the super-durable block and bottom end.

            I’m sure a lot of the 1st gen Ford Power Stroke trucks are still on the road, only being done in by accidents or rust.

        • 0 avatar
          jpolicke

          And in a little after five years, when the 80000 mile emissions warranty is up, the cost for repairing all the exotic diesel emissions equipment (DPF, diesel cat, DEF injection) is on you. The cost of the repairs will likely make all your fuel savings go up in smoke.

        • 0 avatar
          jaje

          Gas and diesel fluctuate depending on the time of the year. In winter diesel prices are about the same as premium fuel as it is a heating oil substitute. In the summer it goes down in price significantly where the past month it’s been lower or the same price as regular unleaded (was $0.10 cheaper a gallon for almost 2 weeks).

          Next up is the diesel gives you the workload of a Hemi (at much lower RPM) but with fuel efficiency of a small v6. EPA cycles also don’t do them justice as most diesel owners see higher actual mpg than EPA whereas most with gas engines see lower real world mpg.

          The real benefit is if you need to tow / haul heavy loads the diesel will easily pay for itself quickly as it makes maximum torque at significantly lower RPM where the gas engines needs several thousand more RPM to make the same twist. Diesels see up to 50% better mpg when under heavy load. That’ll pay you back pretty quickly if you don’t buy the pickup to be used as a manly car.

          Yes diesel engines cost more than gas engines but they also have higher resale value so when you sell it you’ll make up that “price premium” on the sale if you haven’t made it up with fuel savings over the time you owned it.

          • 0 avatar
            Big Al from Oz

            @jaje
            What we found initially in Australia diesel utes were more expensive than their petrol counterparts. But as time went on they gradually became more affordable.

            Now, a 4 cylinder diesel ute will cost the same as an equivalent V6 ute. The difference is the diesel is offering superior FE and torque equivalent to a V8.

            Another added bonus is the longevity of the engines. A small business operator can outlay money for a ute and know it will last several years longer than its petrol cousin.

            There are drawbacks with diesel, like anything in life there are pros and cons, but the pros outweigh the cons.

            I also see alot of US blogs whining about costs. The reality is over the past decade or so the average price of getting into a pickup in the US has outstripped the CPI by a large margin.

            The pickup consumer is buying a lot of mid to high end pickups. This indicates that people are looking for more than just the utility of the pickup, they want features to make their purchase more acceptable.

            This also indicates that the American pickup has become a car with a balcony (TM DenverMike). The money making pickup in the US is the SUV pickup, daily driver. The manufacturers will capitalise on this until competition reduces the prices, like in Australia.

            Diesel is a feature that some do want, I think they will pay the little extra for it.

    • 0 avatar
      DenverMike

      The Hemi V8 is a $2,295 option over base.

      • 0 avatar
        Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

        There’ll probably also be a mandatory trim level as well, $2850 is a very fake number.

        Sad, ‘cuz a diesel pickup that can tow a motorcycle trailer and gets ~25mpg combined would be a nice second vehicle.

    • 0 avatar
      EAC

      Hi, i’m from Costa Rica. I have a 2007 Hyundai Accent CRDI (diesel) 110 HP, 173lb/ft of torque. I think that i will never buy a common rail diesel engine again. I don´t have any failures but actually i´m going to sell it because if i have to do a repair i will loose the money that i saved in this six years of ownership. Here are some numbers: the car’s price was US$18800, a car with the same equipment but with a gasoline engine was at US$15600, so US$3200 of difference. If the turbocharger fails it will cost US$2000, the injectors US$400 each one, i don´t know the high pressure pump, and i don´t want to know,hahaha, US$600 for the wide band oxygen sensor. About the oil change, it uses 5 quarts of oil vs 4 of the gasoline and it uses a Mahle fuel filter that costs US$52. I asked to the dealer that how much a new engine costs and he told me that the long block costs US$10000, something isn’t right because the car’s price when it was new. I had drive 90625 miles with an average of 47 mpg. The same car in gasoline gets like 31mpg. Now, i bought a 1998 GMC Yukon Vortec 5700 and converted it to LPG at a price of US$2000 (conversion) and it gets 13mpg. By the way, gasoline price is US$5.32/US gallon, diesel US$4.6/US gallon and LPG is US$2.24/ US gallon. Diesel is cheaper because we pay less taxes for each gallon of diesel. Here in Costa Rica, most of the SUVs and small trucks that had been sold new by dealerships are diesel. The problem is that most of the people just see the fuel consumption and don´t see all the cost of ownership. Because we don’t have a diesel emissions regulations like yours, most of the brand new trucks (like Isuzu NPR etc…) and vehicles ( toyota land cruiser J70 and corolla etc…) that are for fleet use, have a mechanical diesel injection system and most of them are naturally aspirated. About the price of an used diesel vehicle vs a gasoline one, i think that i will never buy an used common rail diesel car because i don´t know how was the maintenance in the past and, if it fails, it’s too expensive to repair it. Sorry by any mistake with my English. Thank you.

  • avatar
    86er

    It’s a relative bargain, as the Cummins in the 2500 is an $8000 dollar option ($9400 in Canada).

    • 0 avatar
      billfrombuckhead

      And to think many pundits thought Chrysler would be out of business by now instead of increasing its sales every month for over 3 years. No one guessed Ram would be challenging for leadership of the truck market. I look forward to what new products Mopar and Fiat have on the way. I also look forward to seeing FIAT officially move it’s headquarters to the USA. The dogs bark but the Grand Caravan moves on.

      • 0 avatar
        stuki

        To gain “leadership in the truck market” takes forever. Ram has to keep delivering, particularly on reliability. Even the biggest Ford bigot realises a coil sprung rear is an improvement over cheap leaf springs, for 98% of half ton usage. And that 8 speeds is an improvement over 6. But it will take a decade or so of outdoing the current leader, before Ram’s reputation for detonating trannies and parts just falling off at inopportune times fade away enough for them to seriously be in a position to challenge the F150.

        • 0 avatar
          billfrombuckhead

          Technologywise Chrysler is badly beating the Ford truck right now and starting to beat them in residuals and reliability surveys.

          Notice no one even mentions the Toyota TRDrda or Nissan Titan anymore because the Detroit 3 trucks are so good. Some pundit said buying a Japanese full size truck instead of an American truck is like going to Paris or Rome and ordering Chinese food from room service.

  • avatar
    NoGoYo

    This sounds like a nice motor…

    …but I would want it in a Defender/FJ-esque SUV. Fat diesel torque and lots of off-road ability? Sign me up!

    • 0 avatar
      See 7 up

      Like a Wrangler?

      • 0 avatar
        NoGoYo

        Well, if it will fit. Diesels are generally bigger than gas engines because the block has to be built larger and sturdier.

        It’s not a problem if the engine bay is shared with a vehicle that does have a diesel (which is why Duramax Suburbans are fairly easy to do), but if it’s only used for gas engines…that’s a bit more challenging.

        • 0 avatar
          korvetkeith

          Diesels are larger because they have turbos, inter coolers and big fuel pumps hanging off of them. A duramax doesn’t go straight into a suburban, the body has to be lifted off the frame to make room.

          • 0 avatar
            NoGoYo

            Isn’t that also true for the trucks? Diesel trucks do seem to be a tad taller than their gas counterparts…

          • 0 avatar
            AMC_CJ

            Um, Diesels are larger blocks period.

            Higher compression mandates much larger connecting rods and crankshafts. I’d imagine you probably never broken down an engine before, but trust me on this, I’m a diesel technician, I’ve worked in engine machine shops, diesel engines are larger all the way around. Bigger thicker rotating assembly, blocks, etc. Should see the size of a bare CAT V8 next to a bare gas V8, even a old big block.

            The 2.8 Inline-4 Diesel in my Jeep is massive compared to a similar gas Inlie-4. It’s also a couple hundred pounds more then the gas V6 (and takes up about as much room).

          • 0 avatar
            korvetkeith

            I hope you weren’t replying to me, I am an engineer that develops and tests Diesel engine for caterpillar.

        • 0 avatar
          See 7 up

          Given the relative size of a JK engine bay compared to a Grand Cherokee, I think the motor would fit. But, the GC doesn’t doesn’t have a long travel live axle under it…

          As an owner of a Pentastar Wrangler, a diesel would be nice on road, but not really needed off road. Any torque deficiency is made up for with the transfer case, which can easily be had in axle bursting ratio’s

    • 0 avatar
      Brian P

      Grand Cherokee gets the same engine.

      Regarding the size of the diesel engine … It depends. The VW diesels fit in the same envelope as the gasoline engines, and they always have, from day one. In the beginning, the VW inline-four was designed to be either a gasoline engine or a diesel engine, and they both used the same block casting.

  • avatar
    KixStart

    Are diesel motors really so much more costly to build?

    • 0 avatar
      LeMansteve

      High price may not necessarily mean high cost. Also, economies of scale work against features or options with low take rates.

    • 0 avatar
      korvetkeith

      Yes

      • 0 avatar
        stuki

        As you are developing diesels for a living; are diesels still much more expensive to build than newfangled “diesel tech” (high pressure DI, turbos) engines like the ones VW are selling? Or is the main difference that contemporary diesels need all the fancy stuff just to pass emissions, while gas engines can pass while still being built fairly simple, as long as ultimate efficiency is not the overriding goal?

    • 0 avatar
      Brian P

      Injection pump has to handle 2000 bar pressure instead of 4 bar (for gasoline port injection) or 200 bar (for gasoline direct injection).

      Injectors, injector lines, pressure regulators, same situation.

      Turbocharger is mandatory with a modern diesel engine. Gasoline engine doesn’t need it. Along with that comes an intercooler, and for various reasons that VW learned the hard way, depending on how the rest of the emission control system is designed, that may have to be an air-to-water intercooler with temperature regulation and its own circulating pump and radiator.

      Then there are the emission systems. In terms of hardware, gasoline engine needs a couple of oxygen sensors and a 3-way catalyst. Diesel engine needs oxidizing catalyst, DPF, SCR catalyst, and the AdBlue storage and injection system, and quite a few sensors to make all this stuff work. Diesel engines generally have a more sophisticated EGR system, too. The VW TDI engines have high-pressure EGR and low-pressure EGR.

      Some things are a wash; glow plugs instead of spark plugs, for example.

      The only complicated-ish things that a gasoline engine usually has nowadays that a diesel engine doesn’t need, are the evaporative emission control system (no charcoal canister … hardly a big deal), and variable valve timing.

      • 0 avatar
        30-mile fetch

        With all of the added complexities you just listed, I have to wonder if the old concept of diesel engines being more durable than gasoline engines for the long haul is really true anymore.

        • 0 avatar
          EquipmentJunkie

          Yes & no. Diesels still are more durable at the core (block & rotating mass) but recent emissions controls have made them much more complex and potentially more troublesome. It seems to break down by manufacturer and/or the route that each chose to reach emissions targets. Ford 6.0 PowerStrokes and some late-model medium & heavy truck engines can be very problematic. Navistar just announced that their warranty costs were $164 million…thanks EPA.

          I suspect that we are currently in an era where regs and deadlines outpaced R&D money and time. Compromised engines litter the market. The penalty is paid in component failures and lower fuel economy. I suspect that things will settle out in 5 years or so and we will see a return of good performance, fuel economy, and reliability.

          European manufacturers who led the way with Diesel Engine Fluid (DEF) are further ahead than those whose decision tree caused them to choose the EGR route. Caterpillar, Navistar, and Deere all stubbed their toes in recent years.

          • 0 avatar
            Brian P

            I think it’s fair to say that the current common-rail VW TDI engine is somewhat subject to the “version 1.0″ problem. If you buy a current Passat TDI, it has a liquid-cooled intercooler to solve the intercooler-freezing issue that cropped up on the Jetta, and the design of it certainly suggests that it was a last-minute redesign. Several manufacturers have been having issues with the Bosch CP4 injection pump, but that’s more an issue with being designed just a little too cheaply than it should have been. VW has been having trouble with the EGR back-pressure flap in the exhaust. We already know that the Golf 7 TDI engine has a designed-in liquid-cooled intercooler, the EGR back-pressure flap is gone, at least some versions are only going to have one EGR system instead of two, and hopefully they do something about that infernal CP4.1 injector pump.

    • 0 avatar
      jaje

      For light vehicles especially in the US, gas engines are cheap to build b/c of significant mass production advantages. But as of late many gas engines are becoming much more expensive to make as they are adding DI, turbo charging to increase power with smaller displacement, active aerodynamics to reduce drag, and many other methods. Due to the mass production advantage gas engines cost less as they have evolved much quicker and had significantly more R&D to benefit them. However physics can’t be overcome as a gallon of diesel has 25% > energy density than a gallon of gasoline (similar to as how a gallon of gas has 25% > energy density than a gallon of E85). As for the cost of the engines – we are ignoring the fact that the OEM is adding in profit. For instance – VW said their TDI costs only $800 to produce than the 2.0T but they can charge a $2k premium over the 2.0T and much higher profit per vehicle (OTOH VW says their hybrid costs $4k more). The take rate on the Jetta is ~ 50% for the TDI so they are quite successful at it and it is making them great margin. The gas Jettas get at beast high 30′s but real world TDI owners easily get high 40′s to low 50′s mpg. In fact the TDI broke the Guinness world record by making 77.9 mpg on a cross country roundtrip in a new Passat TDI – of course using hypermiling techniques and mostly highway. http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/2013-volkswagen-passat-tdi-sets-guinness-fuel-economy-record.html

      One engine to keep an eye on is the Mazda Skyactiv-D which has the lowest production compression ratio of a diesel engine (it does not require the diesel emission fluid (DEF) or diesel particulate filter (DPF) and the block is all aluminum. This gets rid of a disadvantage of a diesel engine – noxious emissions control and the heavy weight required by an iron block.

  • avatar
    Mandalorian

    How come domestic truck makers charge more for a diesel V6, than a gas V8? Look at what Mercedes does with its diesels, making them the base engine. They would sell a lot better if this was the case.

    • 0 avatar
      See 7 up

      Does the V6 outperform the V8? Cylinder count doesn’t always matter. Many a crap v8 has been sold to the American public based on the perceived superiority provided by cylinder count.
      But, in this case the V8 is pretty good.

    • 0 avatar
      stuki

      World (at least Europe) wide, a small/moderate sized diesel is the volume engine. Gas V8s are for the select few. Hence, economies of scale work in the opposite direction in Euroland than here. That’s at least one reason for the discrepancy. I’m sure there are others.

    • 0 avatar
      DenverMike

      At some point, if you sell enough diesels, they can be as cheap to put in your cars as gas engines. Of course you should always make whatever sells them most, your base engine. Unless you’re Chrysler. The Cummins outsells the Hemi in 3/4 and 1 ton trucks, but the Hemi is still the base engine.

  • avatar
    grzydj

    The Hemi is a nice engine, but it is a bit revvy for a truck. I think this is an excellent addition to the RAM pickup drivetrain offerings.

  • avatar

    They need a small 4cylinder diesel for the cheap work truck crowd. Keep the price down on the base truck and better fuel economy for people that need a work truck for hauling light loads. Save the 6 and 8 cylinders for the HD trucks and put the small diesel in the 1500′s.

  • avatar
    CJinSD

    The output ratings here are the same that the engine makes in the Jeep Grand Cherokee. The claimed outputs are right in the thick of the 3 liter diesel V6 field, but the JGC was mysteriously slow relative to its competition in a June Car and Driver comparison test.

  • avatar
    brettc

    $3000 isn’t all that much to a lot of truck buyers, so I can see a high take-rate on this option. Impressive HP and torque numbers as well as the 8 speed transmission won’t hurt it. It’s interesting that one domestic company finally offers a small diesel in pickup, while another domestic company finally offers a diesel in a passenger car. Yet Ford is offering neither at the moment even though they have a bunch of diesel engines they could be using. We’ll see who wins over time I guess.

    • 0 avatar
      See 7 up

      Ford’s turbocharged (ecoboost) V6 kinda fills the same role as a TD. Ultimate longevity may not be as high, but I don’t think most people care if a) performance is there 2) its reliable and 3) gas remains a cheaper option overall (vehicle cost plus fuel costs)

  • avatar
    EquipmentJunkie

    The price seems quite reasonable to me. I suspect that the 1500 diesel buyer will recoup much of that when resale time arrives…and save on fuel while owning it. Many commercial buyers will jump for the option at that price.

  • avatar
    AMC_CJ

    Man, there are so many people in this comment section that just don’t have a clue what they’re talking about….. it’s sickening to think this is an “enthusiast base” yet so many are so ignorant the mechanics.

    I was excited to hear the GC was coming out with a Diesel, so I optioned one as if I was in the market to replace my Liberty CRD. The price came out to nearly $50k, as the diesel is a $4,500 option and not offered on the basic packages. I’ve never been big on trucks, a utility trialer works fine and makes more sense, but I think I’m going to check into this when it comes out. The price doesn’t seem bad; the VM-Motori in my Jeep has been a pretty good engine, I imagine this one will be too Regular cab, short bed, 4×4 and a camper shell would make a decent SUV alternative.

  • avatar
    Austin Greene

    I predict it will achieve 20% of RAM 1500 sales.

    Although it does seem odd that they choose to show the engine from the back.

  • avatar
    mike1dog

    I still don’t like diesels. Around here, the only pumps for diesel are not under the canopy, and don’t have credit card devices on them, I guess because most diesels are owned by government and business entities. Plus diesel costs about 80 cents a gallon here more than regular unleaded. I don’t know if the Ram requires the urea, but maintenance is generally higher with diesels because the fuel filters are higher than the gas version.

    • 0 avatar
      Brian P

      While it’s true that diesels are fussy about their fuel filter … and while it’s also true that I can only speak for VW fuel filters and not Ram fuel filters … the fuel filter on a VW TDI costs about $15, needs to be changed every 32,000 km, and swapping it is an easy 5 minute do-it-yourself job. Non-issue.

      The diesel exhaust fluid may have been an issue early on, but it is available everywhere nowadays, and it’s pretty cheap. Fill the DEF tank at the same time as you do an engine oil change, and that’s all most people will ever have to do.

  • avatar
    Carlson Fan

    I will be suprised if Dodge can keep these things on the lot. People that use their 1/2 ton trucks for towing will be all over a diesel. The current crop of 3/4 ton diesels are overpowered and the fuel economy sucks for a diesel. Plus your stuck riding in a 3/4 ton or heavier chassis. I suspect that whether or not the economics are there isn’t all that important to the towing crowd. People would rather spend their money on a truck than flushing it down the toilet at the pump every week. Combine thay with how a diese, tows and it is pretty much a no brainer. Forget diesel cars in the states, a diesel belongs in a truck that you can put to work.

    Too bad that both Ford & GM weren’t smart enough to build this truck first. They will lose sales of their diesel HD trucks to Dodge’s 1/2 ton diesel, trust me on that.

    • 0 avatar
      DenverMike

      There are always those that want to put a diesel in anything that moves. That doesn’t mean a diesel 1/2 tons will do any serious cannibalizing of the 3/4 ton market. Not even Rams own Cummins pickups. In fact, more and more will be rejecting diesel 3/4 tons, and up.

      For one, the $8,000 in upfront savings is too much to resist.
      And two, the down-the-road saving of diesels are diminishing daily.
      Then three, current gas V8s get the job done just fine, if it’s not a race to get 30,000 lbs the top of the mountain.
      Finally four, now for the 1st time, Ram is offering 6.4 Hemi V8s in their 4500/5500 series, medium duty trucks.

      Ford has been selling gas V10s in trucks up to class 7, for years now.
      GM had better dust off the old 8.1 V8 if it wants to compete in the medium duty class.

      • 0 avatar
        EquipmentJunkie

        I know what you are saying about the 3/4-ton market, but keep in mind that today’s 1/2-tons have as much GVW, more horsepower and torque than my ’94 Dodge Ram diesel did. In short, today’s 1/2-tons are yesterday’s 3/4-tons.

        My company would be buying a 1500 today rather than a 2500. The 1500 does what we need to do just fine…on top of that the 1500 Ram has the smooth coil spring rear. There is a huge, untapped market for a 1/2-ton diesel.

        The 1/2-ton diesel was rumored for years, then delayed repeatedly. My company got tired of it and built our own. A capable pickup that delivers 25+ mpg is incredibly appealing.

        • 0 avatar
          DenverMike

          Anyone currently in a 3/4 ton (vs a 1/2 ton) is there because they have to be, not because they want to be. They are not interchangeable with 1/2 tons. Everything is up to 10X stronger. Trans, ball joints, U-joints…

          Take a good look at a 1/2 ton’s rear axle. Cheesy is right! Just one tiny bearing at each end, half the size of a Hostess Cup Cake. Now a 3/4 ton has 2 big bearings at each end the size of microwaveable pot pies. (I’m getting hungry as you can tell..)

          Then the (innner) axles are bolted to the hub/disk assembly by (8) 3/8 inch bolts. Those are held in by a series of huge nuts, with locking washer tabs.

          All that holds a 1/2 ton’s (inner) axles from leaving the truck completely, along with the wheel, is clips the size of a thumbnail.

          So it’s not just about the engine or GVWR. And we’re taking a diesel V6 that’s not much more powerful than the Hemi. There’s definitely savings to be had a the pump, but that’s about it. And that doesn’t account for everything else involved in vehicle purchase/operating.

          This diesel is just there for MPG bragging rights. I don’t think anyone expects it to sell in big numbers. If it does, great. If it kills off 3/4 tons, even better. Chrysler can can shutter its Saltillo, Coahuila, Mexico assembly plant for good… But that’s not the point.

          • 0 avatar
            EquipmentJunkie

            But I bought a 3/4-ton diesel Ram in ’94 because I wanted to be driving a diesel. It tows so much stronger. A 1/2-ton gasser could have easily pulled the same 6K trailer…but it would have only gotten 10 mpg. Instead, I got over 17 mpg.

            There are scores of rednecks in my part of the country who drive around in old diesel pickups because they prefer a diesel…their friends who drive gassers drive half-tons. For many, it is want not need.

            My point is that you compare today’s half-tons with yesterday’s (15-20 year old) 3/4-tons and you will see strong component similarities. Today’s half tons aren’t cheesy.

            The EcoDiesel puts out 420 lbs./ft. of torque. That torque number is more important than the horsepower figures. The diesel option in the Ram is there to help fulfill Federal MPG mandates…and a little MPG marketing doesn’t hurt.

            Our Dodge Sprinter van has a piddly little rear axle compared to 1/2-ton domestic vans and it soldiers on just fine at 130K. Yes, a domestic van would have been fine but it would get far less MPG and would have a far smaller cargo area. That’s funny, Ford & Chrysler seem to have gotten the message about the superior packaging & economy of the Sprinter van. I believe the van market foreshadows the future of the 1/2-ton truck market.

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            You can a say this diesel V6 has the power of a 5.9 Cummins of 20+ years ago, and on paper, Yes. Except it’s still a tiny engine with a tiny crank that could blow out the bottom bearings with the force of 30,000+ lbs behind it. And it doesn’t have the leverage of an engine 2X the size.

            Remember, today’s Cummins in HD Rams has the HP & Tq of simi-truck 12 liter diesels from 20+ years ago. On paper. What do you think would happen if you put one of them in front of an 80,000 lbs load???

            Clearly it’s not just about power on a specs sheet. It’s a little more complicated and also, how much a chassis can take. Braking? Cooling? Load bearing bearings? The list goes on…

          • 0 avatar
            Big Al from Oz

            @DenverMike
            First you believe that pickups are classified by SAE standards.

            NOW, you are saying that SAE standards don’t apply to engines?

            Really, 420ftlb of torque is 420ftlb of torque. It doesn’t matter the size of an engine. A diesel is by far a stronger and more durable product compared to a gas engine, hence their longevity.

            Why to you persist with misinformation, I have read the UAW site on vehicles. So the VM engines aren’t made with UAW manpower that doesn’t mean its a bad or substandard product.

            I think you will find that the quality of a UAW made product is slightly sub standard to their competition.

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            @BAF0 – SAE engine ‘output’ just tells you “peak” torque and HP. It says absolutely nothing about how flat or ‘peaky’ the torque or HP ‘curve’ is or when they’ll run out of ‘steam’.

            My ’94 TDI (pre Power Stroke) 7.3 F-450 had less than 200 HP and less that 400 ft/lbs of torque. On paper, this 3.0 Diesel would embarrasses it. In reality, that old 7.3 would run circles around this puny 3.0, in the same application. 30,000 lbs would turn it into shrapnel. Engines are not interchangeable just because of simple power figures.

            Diesels are built far stronger than gas, so they don’t blow apart from extreme pressures. Their longevity comes from the lubricity of diesel fuel. Or sulfur. At least, historically. Now that most sulfur is getting removed from diesel, and more to be removed over time, it’s anyone’s guess how long diesels will last.

            As far as diesels having an over all advantage over gas, that party’s over…

          • 0 avatar
            Big Al from Oz

            @DenverMike
            WTF is this?

            You can a say this diesel V6 has the power of a 5.9 Cummins of 20+ years ago, and on paper, Yes. Except it’s still a tiny engine with a tiny crank that could blow out the bottom bearings with the force of 30,000+ lbs behind it. And it doesn’t have the leverage of an engine 2X the size.

            Leverage? Here is some simple physics;
            If you have a lever 10′ long and the fulcrum is at one end. At the opposite end you place 10lbs of effort what torque will you be generating in foot pounds?

            Now? Here is a hard one. If you have a lever that is 5′ long with the fulcrum at one end and I apply 20 pounds at the opposite end what will the torque value be in foot pounds?

            The last one; The lever is now only one foot long at one end is the fulcrum and I apply 100 pounds of force. What is the value of torque expressed in foot pounds.

            I tricked you this is really the last one:)

            The lever is only six inches long (yes it is getting tiny) with the same deal. Fulcrum at one end and I apply 200 pounds of effort. What is the value in foot pounds. Tricky this one.

            DenverMike I remember when I started to learn and edumacate TRD x4 Tom. Those where the days :)

  • avatar
    Big Al from Oz

    I can see the potential for a large diesel powered light commercial vehicle market in the US, like elsewhere. The US isn’t any different to any country other than the EPA regulations that work against diesel more so than the pricing of the fuel.

    Diesel powered vehicles generally kick off in the light commercial vehicle sector and gradually spreads through more mainstream vehicles. I think people will use them in their light work vehicles and then when the time is correct buy one for themselves as a daily driver.

    Judging by data, the US is taking up diesel quite readily. To the people who are complaining about the price of diesel vs gasoline should look to Australia. Diesel fuel is proportionally very similar in pricing as it is in the US. Yet diesel is taking off. It also started in the light commercial vehicle sector.

    Like Australia the US has its dedicated V8 crowd that can’t see the forest through the trees and will deny any change is occurring or will occur. The reality is modern diesels are a great cheap alternative form of motive force.

    The pricing of diesel engines are more expensive, yes. But diesel light vehicles are in their infancy in the US. As the take up of diesel fuel vehicles increase competition and volume will make them much more competitive. Even now they are competitive. What will change is the ‘optioning’ up of diesel powered vehicles to make them more prestigious. This will gradually change and they will become available in volume movers.

    Our previous emission standards had US gasoline standards that helped Ford/GM Holden/Toyota and Euro diesel standards. We are moving in the direction of EuroVI. But this gave us a market to make a comparison between the US emission model vs the Euro model. The Euro model is winning at the moment with the consumer.

    Diesel is the current answer and what people do want.

    • 0 avatar
      DenverMike

      @BAFO – Replacing diesel injectors is becoming “routine service”, as of late. Mine needs them, but at $3,000+, I’ll just drive it ’till it dies… Then I’ll walk away and never get another diesel. I’m done.

      And mine has been extremely reliable compared to friend’s diesels. The small problems it’s had “only” cost me $1,000+ each. A FICM and DPF. Everything equals big Dollars with diesels. Maintenance costs are ridiculous.

      The days when diesels gave any kind of over all advantage are gone. Diesel sales may be gaining traction in some small pockets or parts or the world, but so are hybrids.

      • 0 avatar
        Big Al from Oz

        @DenverMike
        How accurate are your costs? Like your $8 000 premium for a diesel?

        Your diesel? I thought you have stated that you will never own a diesel and only run gas trucks. What is your true position on issues? Are you just a compulsive teller of untruths?

        Another DenverMike moment in the DenverMike blogoshpere.

        • 0 avatar
          DenverMike

          @BAF0 – I haven’t spent $8,000, but more than $7,000 because of fleet pricing. And I won’t again. Pay attention if you’re going to look for me to contradict myself. And stay on topic.

          I still own diesels with relatively low miles. I have a 6 year old fleet and usually trade at 300K mi or 10 years. But we’ll see. It definitely won’t be another round of diesels, that’s for sure.

          Thankfully, we now have gas engines choices in medium duty trucks, so that won’t be a problem.

      • 0 avatar
        jaje

        I hear all the fear mongering about the cost to fix a diesel and the high failure rates of fuel injectors or glow plugs. Here the claim is on the “possibility” or I’ve read on the Internet. Same argument you should not buy a gas engine as it might throw a rod (the rods are weaker than a diesel engine and they spin higher RPM) or a headgasket will get blown, etc. If this was true – diesel would not be the de facto standard of the world’s transportation industry (yep, planes, trains, busses, trucks, etc.).

        Now for the fallacy that diesel fuel injector replacement are “routine maintenance”. Diesel fuel injectors are designed to last the life of the engine – which is at a minimum of 400k miles on a light passenger vehicle and 600k+ for a big rig. They are expensive (anywhere from $200 to $500 each – depending on the engine) but the failure rate is absurdly low. Where you commonly see premature failure of a diesel fuel injector is from heavy use of veggie oil and biofuels where it often is poorly processed.

        Another fallacy is the cost of glow plugs being expensive and fail more often than spark plugs – this again is unproven and a glow plug typically costs from $20-$30 each. They are also designed to last at least 200k miles.

        Another thing missed is the fact that diesel engines are very tight when new and they will loosen up and by 50k miles they will be ever increasing their efficiency leading to more power and better mpg. The engine braking is also much better than a gasoline engine due to the higher compression which helps in going downhill or towing / hauling lessening the load on the vehicles brakes.

        Next up is the argument that “my friend” which then should tell any readers to simply stop reading and move on as whatever is stated is likely made up.

        • 0 avatar
          DenverMike

          OK, tell us what you think it costs to fix a diesel. They’re getting more complex with each new generation. Everything operates under high pressure and extreme heat. The exact opposite was true of old skool diesels. And current diesel are still riding on the coattails of previous generations.

          Diesels are built stronger because high compression and the bigger release of energy requires it. This isn’t for long engine life. Historically, diesel’s longevity came from running cool and the lubricity of old skool, sulfur rich diesel fuel.

          Injectors are supposed to last the life of the warranty. They’re a wear item. And you replace them all, once you’re in there. Even with old skool diesels, once you reached 350K mi, you were on your 3rd or 4th set of injectors and 2nd or 3rd injector pump. But then part were cheap and you replaced them yourself if you were capable of changing your own oil.

          And I’d like to see you replace a set of glow plugs for $30 each.

          As far as the “worlds’s transportation industry” goes, who knows what generation of diesels they’re running. CARB compliant (or equivalent)?

          When you’re talking planes, trains, buses, big rigs, ocean liners, etc: they need explosive power and or tremendous engine braking. Not so in cars and pickup trucks.

          Or tell me why Ram is now offering “Hemi” V8s in medium duty 4500 and 5500 series truck for the 1st time. Just as Ford has been selling V10s in the F-650s and down, for a couple years.

          Don’t take my word for it. Ask people that owns and operates trucks for a living. You’re talking ‘lifestyle/fetish’ diesels when you’re not using them to pull cattle and such. If you are, a gas engine will do the job just fine, up to class 7 trucks.

          Gas engines are becoming more complex, but slightly. Their basic design and emissions haven’t changed much to speak of. But they’ve evolved as diesels have devolved.

          • 0 avatar
            jaje

            Wow – your argument that parts for the diesel are made to only last the life of the warranty (isn’t this true of any part on any car sold today). So by this (il) logic you should only buy only the longest warranty – that would mean Hyundais b/c of a 100k warranty. To further this logic you give me let’s apply the fear mongering to modern gas engines. They now have are getting high pressure fuel pumps and direct injectors and turbos and dual spark plugs that “are only made to last the warranty” as well and these cost significantly more than gas engines without. Or coilless ignition systems? I can go on and on and on.

            So without any proof that modern diesel engine glow plugs and injectors and fuel pumps only last for their warranty period – your “facts” are simply made up and simply predicated on your campaign of misinformation and ignorance in posts on TTAC.

            I didn’t forget about the glow plugs. Yep – those are actually things I can buy for < $30. And no you don't have to replace all of them at the same time.

            Dodge Sprinter Glow Plugs cost $26 each (wow isn't that scary that they are so affordable). http://www.ebay.com/itm/Diesel-Glow-Plug-Dodge-MB-Freightliner-Sprinter-001-159-71-01-001-159-50-01-/160939236934?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2578b9de46&vxp=mtr

            VW TDI glow plugs cost $18 each (you can do a google search). Newer F250 glow plugs cost $50 each and older F250s $15 each.

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            @jaje – Why would you replace just one glow plug once you have it apart? Parts are cheap, labour isn’t.

            Gas engine are not a problem. Big difference here. We’ve figured out how to make gas engines 100% reliable, decades ago. Diesels are still evolving, but more like devolving. Thank emissions for that.

            What I’m saying is, injectors don’t last the life of the diesel engine. They never have. Nor have injector pumps or glow plugs. But they most often outlive the warranty.

            And if the best you can hope for is to recoup some or all of your diesel investment when you trade it (before the warranty expires), that’s not a very good value proposition.

          • 0 avatar
            jaje

            Yes – gas engines are definitely 100% reliable and do not break down or have costly repairs. Hmm – so why are their still recalls on gasoline engines, why do they still need repairs even before the warranty? Oh yeah emissions controls that bottle neck them as well and cause warranty and out of warranty work just like you stated only happens to diesel engines. This is like the pot calling the kettle black and you run around in circles in your arguments. You say diesel parts are only made to last the warranty (so b/c a piezo fuel injector for a diesel engine’s warranty is only 3 years or 36k miles then it fails is completely ignorant and such loose logic it is laughable b/c the exact same is true of gas engines. So we should not buy any cars or trucks b/c they are not made to last and are only built to go the initial warranty term. I’ll laugh myself to bed (I’m hoping there’s no diesel monster underneath my bed or in my closet).

    • 0 avatar
      RobertRyan

      @Big Al from Oz,
      It will be interesting to see the reaction from the consumers to the RAM and it appears the Nissan Diesel Pickups. I know certain vested interests in the US would like a diesel option to disappear as in their eyes a diesel would reduce the profitability of the Vehicle by raising the price and in return reduce company overall profits.

      • 0 avatar
        DenverMike

        @RobertRyan – Your conspiracy theories make zero sense. Why would an OEM opting OUT of selling diesels, worry about the lack of profits of OEMs that Do sell them? And at $5,000 to $8,000 for the diesel upgrade, who’s to say who’s taking a loss. Other than the consumer.

        • 0 avatar
          Big Al from Oz

          @DenverMike
          You have theories/propaganda that can’t be classified. They generally are senseless and only support the views of the UAW.

          Why do you discredit any product that the UAW doesn’t have it’s hand in? The VM is made in Italy, that’s why it will be no good. But a Powerstroke is good.

          The only diesels that you think are good are UAW diesels. The only vehicles that you continually deride are non-UAW manufactured. Products also made in Mexico is another favourite of yours to put down.

          It is very obvious that you can’t believe the crap you write. How much does the rank and file pay to have your ‘wisdom’ put on display on these motoring sites?

          Isn’t it enough that US citizens on very low wages pay tax so UAW members can still have your pensions. You guys are intestinal worms in the auto industry and ought to be eradicated.

          Look at the comment you made on diesels with them exploding and then inferring it isn’t possible for an engine to get the torque and power.

          These diesels do work and have worked for years around the world outside of NAFTA. And if UAW jobs are lost the members can work for a foreign manufacturer in the US.

          You UAW guys only have yourselves to blame for the position you are in. Stop expecting handouts to make up for your poor past decisions.

          Learn to be competitive. It’s like sport, anti competition practices likematch fixing is illegal.

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            @BAF0 – I’ve never advocated consumers buy ANY diesels, UAW or otherwise. I just offer my experience and knowledge. Beyond that, they can buy what ever, from whom ever.

            If you want to change the topic to union labour, talk to Mikey. I just know trucks, engines, driving and so forthe. And I can spot BULL$H!t from a country mile… Say hello to Robert Ryan for me.

            If you want to talk “conspiracies” or “propaganda”, 1st have them makes sense. Then back that up with something. ANYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

            or quit

  • avatar
    Quentin

    $5k more for 40 fewer horses than the base V6? Ehhh.. that will be tough to choke down unless you absolutely have to tow all the time. Then again, I don’t tow anything sizable… but I’m not certain that this engine is there for towing or gas mileage. If it is set up for gas mileage (tall gears, for example), I don’t expect it will be a great tow truck despite the high torque rating.

  • avatar
    Johannes Dutch

    In Europe this VM Motori 3.0 ltr. is in the Grand Cherokee and Lancia Thema, which is actually a rebadged Chrysler 300C. Great long distance runners, both of them. Or if you put the pedal to the metal: great Autobahn burners !
    Since the mid-nineties you can have a VM Motori diesel engine in Chrysler products. The old 2.5 ltr. 4-cylinder was in the Jeep Cherokee and Chrysler Voyager. The newer 2.8 ltr. 4-cylinder is in the Wrangler, Cherokee/Liberty and Lancia Voyager. (right, a rebadged Chrysler)

    This 3.0 ltr. V6 isn’t really regarded as a typical “workhorse” diesel here, unlike Fiat’s own FPT (Fiat Powertrain Technologies) diesel engines for vans, trucks and farm equipment. These engines are in the Iveco vans and trucks and Case New Holland farm and construction equipment. (The Fiat Group is the owner of Iveco and CNH)

    It would be nice to see more Rams here to compete with the typical Japanese pickup trucks like the Toyota HiLux with its 3.0 ltr. diesel.

  • avatar
    jaje

    http://fuelfix.com/blog/2013/06/28/study-diesel-vehicle-owners-save-money-on-fuel-resale-costs/

    Study on ownership of diesel vehicle with comparable gas engine over 5 years. All cases diesel owners came out ahead through fuel savings, reduced maintenance and higher resale price when they traded or sold their vehicle. The worst was the Dodge Ram 2500 with a $67 (less than 10% increase in mpg and higher cost for the diesel) advantage versus the Mercedes Benz GL $15,600 over that 5 year period (significantly higher mpg > 30% and the diesel actual costs less than the v8 gas model).

  • avatar
    Johannes Dutch

    If this Ram turns out to be a success it really should be no problem for Ford and GM to have an answer ready. Ford has its proven 3.2 ltr. 5-cylinder (Transit and Ranger models) and GM has its Isuzu-partnership. Isuzu is a renowned and very experienced builder of truck diesels.

  • avatar
    Les

    After all the time and effort Chrysler put into developing it’s association with Cummins and making it as much a household name in engines as Hemi, will the American Consumer really be that eager to accept a RAM truck diesel without the Cummins badge?


Back to TopLeave a Reply

You must be logged in to post a comment.

Subscribe without commenting

Recent Comments

New Car Research

Get a Free Dealer Quote

Staff

  • Authors

  • Brendan McAleer, Canada
  • Marcelo De Vasconcellos, Brazil
  • Matthias Gasnier, Australia
  • Tycho de Feyter, China
  • W. Christian 'Mental' Ward, Abu Dhabi
  • Mark Stevenson, Canada
  • Faisal Ali Khan, India