GM Disappoints In The 4th Quarter

@jhott997- I AM a GM salary retiree and have to defend timmruss for cutting through the BS! I stumbled on this site and was amazed at the negative spin. Some folks here have been writing that GM would quickly fail again. They were wrong! They wrote that GM would come back to the well for more government assistance. They were wrong! They wrote that GM makes cars no one wants. They were wrong. GM actually gained substantial share in America, made great profit here, and sell far more cars everywhere but Japan than any other car maker. If no on wants them, why do they sell so many more than anyone else?

@doctor olds it's called sudden acceleration, tsunami and flood. GM US market will drop to 15% this year. without the gov't bailout and mother nature they would never had made any progress. suppose one could also make a case against counting 100% of Chinese deliveries when only owning half the company. this year the Koreans, Germans, and Japanese will surge and GM will tank...

@doctor olds Buickman - do you still sell Buicks and/or other GM vehicles? Lets see if you are right in early January 2013 when we know the full 2012 figures (although January 2012 was above 15%). The data will inform us.

@doctor olds I get it. I understand why you have an interest in positive spin for GM. However, don't rant on here about Bertel's supposed "bias against GM" when you have CLEAR interest and bias FOR GM. It is just silly. It is a process for GM. You of all people should know that things move S-L-O-W-L-Y inside GM. I am one who believes that GM did not make the required changes, internally, to actually CHANGE anything about their future. GM is doomed to fail again because of their resistance to internal change. It's not about "jobs" or obama vs bush vs romney or anti-uaw whatever. It's about GM and it's inevitable march towards a much, much smaller company. The same people, making the same decisions leads to the same results. There is a running joke inside GM that the "executives are moving around the chairs on the deck of the ship" and calling it "change". Same chairs, different position, ship is still taking on water. You can believe the propaganda all you want but believe that GM is on a slow decent. GM is too big, too much capacity and too filled with people more interested in getting paid every two weeks than actually worrying about the product. Yes, GM sells A LOT of cars. I get it. Unfortunately selling a lot of widget X does not mean the manufacturer of the widget is healthy. Remember, GM was "#1" all the way to its managed bankruptcy. GM has a long road to haul and is NOWHERE near out of the storm. GM deserves a very critical eye at this point. Fundamentally, GM must answer these questions: What is a Chevrolet? What is a Buick? What is a Cadillac? What is an Opel? All the pontificating and blogging by cheerleaders who only see the positive in GM does not answer those fundamental questions. Example: what the hell is the Buick Regal and were does it fit in the market? Where does Buick fit in the market for that matter? Don't respin the typical GM talk-points. As a brand Cadillac is just as convoluted and the ATS ad that ran during the Super Bowl is an example. Until those four questions are answered clearly and coherently in a way the customer understands unambiguously then I am afraid the slow rot of GM, from within, will continue. I happen to agree with Buickman. 2012 is going to be an interesting year for GM. This is a year where they must manage market share v. incentive spending. It will be interesting. Finally doctor olds, it might be refreshing for you to look at GM with a more critical eye.

@jhott997- Your presumptions regarding GM are interesting. Since you actually had no experience inside the company, or any other carmaker,I'll wager. I had 40 years. I was with Oldsmobile during the divisions unparallelled success and eventual failure, the last 37 years of the divisions 107 year life. I do know very well the reasons for the decline, product, product and product. Unlike most here, I also have a very clear and detailed understanding of how the company continually worked to refine its operations to correct the ills so rightly worked criticized. In addition, I have a deep understanding of the actual impacts of a union monopoly on the industry and adversarial government policies. I don't share my criticism of GM publicly. I do try to bring real data and facts to these discussions. Only time will tell whether GM is "out of the woods", but the real data shows they are heading in the right direction.

@doctor olds Where has GM gained substantial market share? The figures I've found for GM's market share in the United States during 2008-11 are these: 2008: 22.1 percent 2009: 19.7 percent 2010: 18.8 percent 2011: 19.4 percent I'm not seeing a consistent increase in market share. I understand that the elimination of three major brands - HUMMER, Pontiac and Saturn - since 2008 has had a negative impact on market share. But, I'm certainly not seeing any explosive growth in share, either. And note that GM held down the number-one slot in sales in the United States right up until the point it declared bankruptcy. So size doesn't always matter.

I would rather have GM earn record profits even if it costs them some market share or volume. All the North American plants are running at near 100% capacity and with no capacity added in the near future and the market expected to rise substantially, GM is better off holding the line on price. Market share and sales crowns at any costs are the kind of a** backwards thinking that got GM bankrupt in the first place. Let Toyota take back the sales crown and earn a paltry billion or two every year. It does seem like GM is serious about profits rather than market share or volume. They are shooting for 10% margins like BMW, which is not real easy for volume manufacturers. I am surprised no one has realized what GM did in January, which i hope they continue for the rest of the year. Yes sales were kinda flat and market share dropped a bit., but GM cut incentives by $700 per car and raised transaction prices by $1000 a car. That is a net of $1700 more earned per car than last January. With sales nearly flat at 169,000 Units, GM raked in $285 Million more just for January. If they keep up that performance till years end, we are looking at $3.4B more in profits compared to 2011, just in the US. This equation will only improve from this point, with the heavily discounted 2012 Malibu being replaced by the non discounted 2013 Model in addition to all the low profit cars like the HHR, Lucerne, and DTS phased out for 2012. So I say to GM, screw market share. Let Toyota and Japanese keep the bragging rights until Toyota implodes due to the strong yen or aging Japanese population due to infertile men.

@Alluster. Interesting analysis. $10.6B profit will come from North America alone this year, at that rate, and it assumes the market will be flat. If GM just maintains share and the market climbs to 14M, the results will be amazing. I predict GM will gain share again in 2012. I would not assume they don't have plans to increase capacity surprisingly quickly, should the market demand.

@alluster "What GM did in January" was increase sales to fleet customers while still experiencing a drop in market share. GM fleet sales rose to 30 percent of GM's total sales, up from 22 percent in January 2011. This was even ahead of Ford's figure (29 percent, down from 30 percent a year earlier). And Ford dominates the more desirable fleet sales - those to government units and corporations (as opposed to rental car companies). I'm not so sure that GM wants to use the January formula for the rest of 2012.

@alluster Or Toyota's almost 50% increase in rental cars for January 2012. Still waiting for Bertel's spread on this topic. http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/02/14/2641200/toyota-boosts-us-sales-with-rental.html Toyota is pushing almost $2,000 on each car it sold last month. Rentals, fleets, incentives...who wants a Toyota? Oh, Bertel?

@alluster "“What GM did in January” was increase sales to fleet customers while still experiencing a drop in market share." Yep. Comparing January 2012 to January 2011, we know this much: -GM deliveries fell from about 179,000 to 168,000, a decline of about 6% -According to NADA, total US vehicles sales increased over that same period by 11.2%. Therefore, GM total market share fell from 21.9% to 18.5% -GM reports that its retail sales fell by about 15%. That should equal a retail decline of about 21,000 units -Based upon that, we can surmise that GM must have increased fleet sales by about 10,500 units, an increase in fleet of about 27%. -Chevrolet overall US sales were down 1.2%, a modest decline compared to GM's overall US decline of 6.1%. Chevrolet's retail sales declined by 14.7% over this same period. Yet Chevrolet's passenger car sales increased by 13%. This strongly suggests that Chevy cars are getting dumped into fleets. Malibu, Impala and Cruze sales were up, and Sonic sales for January 2012 were well above those of the Aveo sales for January 2011, so it isn't much of a challenge to guess which nameplates are going to fleet.