By on November 10, 2010

Why did we have an eleven-year-old, scratch-and-dent, no-maintenance-records, twelve-cylinder Jaguar on our lot? Blame our naive sales manager, who always paid top dollar for trades. In his haste to revolutionize the way people bought and sold luxury cars in Dublin, Ohio, “Steve” tended to ignore the established car-sales playbook. At the time, I thought he was bold; I now realize he was stupid.

It’s famously said that the SCCA road-racing rulebook is “written in blood”. Every rule in the book is a lesson learned from a tragic occurrence. By the same token, every rule in the car-sales biz is written, not in blood, but in red ink. There’s one rule in particular that is written in so much ink that it’s bled through the page, and that is: Don’t take used cars to customer homes for test drives. If you look closely, you will see an asterisk to that rule, added by me, and at the bottom of the metaphorical page, I’ve written: * this goes double for Jags.

The history of the Jaguar XJ-S could fill a book, and in fact it’s filled a few books. As the Seventies dawned, it was commonly believed that the sportscar era was about to come to a permanent halt. The affordable race-on-Sunday ragtop was an early casualty of Arab oil prices, American safety regulations, and California emission controls. Jaguar believed that a move upmarket would be required to stay in business (the more things change…) and the XJ-S was created to replace the aging XKE (E-Type to us USians).

Surely fifteen years of depressing, timid, default-retro Jags have taught us to appreciate this automobile for what it is: a unique and stunningly proportioned grand tourer. It was never rapid off the line; until the six-liter XJR-S arrived in the Nineties, it was impossible to push any of the sleek cats to sixty miles per hour in under seven seconds. Top speed, however, was 145 or better in an era when most family sedans on the Continent struggled to break the “ton”.

The original 5.3L V12 was smog-strangled to just over two hundred and forty horsepower in the States, but again, this was in an era where American five-liter V8s often claimed one hundred and twenty horsepower or less. The “HE” revisions debuted in 1981 and significantly increased fuel economy, bumping power by about ten percent as well.

Seventies-era Jaguar twelves are, to put it mildly, nightmares to own. Mechanically, they can be fragile and service access underneath the long bonnet is difficult. There are miles of wiring required simply to make the XJ-S start and run, with some of that wiring located in places seemingly designed to burn or damage it. On a whim, I downloaded a community-generated service manual for the XJ-S off USENET back in 1996 and printed it out; it was over two hundred pages and in many places consisted simply of a friendly word and a few admonitions not to give up in the face of adversity. Do not expect to operate any XJ-S built prior to 1991 as a daily driver. It’s as simple as that.

Naturally, I did not provide the above caveats to the Ohio State adjunct faculty member who arrived on the dealership lot early one Saturday morning to examine our light blue ’83. Even at a somewhat-reasonable $7995, the Jag hadn’t attracted a single “up” in months. This fellow looked like a solid candidate. Not unlike the car in question, Mr. Customer was pallid, sad-looking, and clearly well past his best days despite only being in his early thirties. I fetched the jump-start cart while our incandescently sexy assistant manager distracted the fellow with a coffee and a flip of her skirt. Wonder of wonders, it fired right up and I pulled up for the test drive…

…only to find that the customer had left his driver’s license at home. No tickee, no drive-ee, as they say. Panicked at the prospect of losing the only warm body to ever point a bewalleted derriere at the car’s cracking left front seat, the assistant manager promised that I would bring the car by tomorrow for a private test drive. She then told me that the dealership would pay me a flat spiff of five hundred bucks if I could move the car. Count me in.

I picked up the keys at noon on Sunday and pointed down Route 71 to the not-quite-professor’s home in the precious little suburb of Clintonville. I’d never driven an XJ-S before and was keen to take the ride, actually. First impressions: it was surprisingly like my father’s old ’86 Vanden Plas, but it had even more weight through the steering and drivetrain. As mentioned above, it wasn’t quick, but it also didn’t run out of steam on the freeway the way my VW Fox did. I was well past one-twenty and simply hammering down the left lane, sweeping traffic out of my way with an authoritative flash of the quad headlamps, enjoying the outrageously solid stance and almost complete lack of aerodynamic instability, when all the instrument needles dropped to the pegs and the engine Just. Funking. Quit.

It took me a moment to really believe that I was sailing down the road on inertia; the V-12 was quiet and smooth enough that at triple-digit speeds the relatively low wind noise was still enough to drown out the mechanicals. I slotted the transmission to “N” and started to think. There was an exit perhaps half a mile ahead, so I eased the big coupe through four relatively empty lanes of traffic, gradually falling from one-ten or so down to fifty-ish. A Chevrolet Celebrity “Eurosport” refused to let me merge into the exit lane with it so I had to brush the brakes and kill some of my precious momentum.

I came to a halt perhaps five car lengths from the stoplight at the top of the ramp. For a few long minutes I sat with my head in my hands. I’d killed the car, I would have to be towed back, I would lose my sale and I’d lose my job, and somehow everyone would figure out that I’d just been driving wayyyy too fast. A worn-out brass cat seemed to snarl at me from the key in my hand. With my eyes closed, I reinserted and twisted the key.

There was silence, then a single crank of the starter. The tach jumped. Although I continued on to the precious little home on Fallis Road, I knew that there wouldn’t be any sale. Call it luck, call it grace, call it the entirely understandable scientific operation of Lucas electrics, but whatever you call it, I’d used it up.

Want to take a chance on the beauty in the photos? It’s for sale at Motorcar Portfolio.

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50 Comments on “Capsule Review: Jaguar XJ-S V-12 “HE”...”


  • avatar
    Dan R

    Is that an old Roller beside the Jag? You do like challenges! It will sell but for how much and how long will it take?

  • avatar
    Morea

    Yes reliabilty was suspect, but the on track victories were sublime.  Group 44 (SCCA) and Tom Walkinsaw Racing (ETCC) showed that Jaguar still had it. Let’s keep our priorities straight: racing first, everything else second!

  • avatar
    JMII

    I saw one of these on the road just yesterday and thought “now that is a BEAUTIFUL car”. Its long and lean, but still muscular like a real cat ready to pounce. The lines of the scooped out back section (and curved window) reminds me (in true JB fashion) of a backless dress that dips dangerously low, like low enough to make realize she not only bra-less, but most likely panty-less as well in such an outfit. As they say – they don’t make cars like this anymore.

  • avatar
    Rod Panhard

    The XJ-S was no slouch of the car. I’ve seen the trophy. Here’s the synopsis from Wiki-pedia:
    “The record for official Cannonballs is 32 hours and 51 minutes (about 87 mph), set in the final run by Dave Heinz and Dave Yarborough in a Jaguar XJS in April 1979.”
    That would be the Cannonball Run, coast to coast, pre-GPS, and during the days of the 55 mph speed limit.
     

  • avatar
    Zackman

    Forget the Jag – what’s peeking out under the cover in the background in the first photo? That’s what I want a capsule review of! Anyone else agree out there?

    As for the Jag – I liked the convertible version better.

  • avatar
    Areitu

    Back in high school, an acquaintance of mine had an ’86 XJ-S HE. His parents had bought it for him as a lesson in value and taking care of your possessions. The speedometer never worked and inside, it smelled like a bizzare mix of gasoline vapor and the handful of CAR-FRESHERs the previous owner stuffed into the footwell, presumably to hide the smell. It was smooth, rode like a cloud and, at least subjectively, handled very well for it’s weight and was quick.
    I’ve toyed with the idea of buying a decent one that runs, off craigslist, and immediately listing it up for sale, driving it around until someone else wants it.

  • avatar
    psarhjinian

    One, I almost bought one of these from a Jag repair shop down the street from my employer at the time.  They knew it would be costly, but since they worked with my employer and with me it wouldn’t have been too crushing.  I wasn’t making much at the time, though, and hadn’t dented my student loan, so I had to say no.
     
    They went out of business not too long after that.  Actually, I think they may have burned down, so it’s just as well.
     
    Two, looking at the wiring harnesses in this car convinced me that the multiple, bus-linked body computers are a very good thing.  Someone with a sick sense of humour designed these cars’ electrical systems, you’re right there, and I’d hazard another good maxim would be “Never buy a Jaguar if the wiring harness looks like it’s been so much as sneezed at”.

  • avatar
    dastanley

    What’s this, JB?  You didn’t go to bed with the assistant manager?  I’m dissappointed in you. :-)

    • 0 avatar
      Jack Baruth

      I never so much as touched her, but as I recall she put it out in front of my father about ten minutes after meeting him. I doubt that I will ever find out if he took her up on it another time; Pops don’t blog.

    • 0 avatar
      dastanley

      I never so much as touched her, but as I recall she put it out in front of my father about ten minutes after meeting him. I doubt that I will ever find out if he took her up on it another time; Pops don’t blog.

      LOL!

  • avatar
    Alex L. Dykes

    My brother has a V12 XJ-S and uses it as a daily driver. Aside from the horrid fuel economy and massively complicated maintenance it has been fairly problem free. Still, I’ll take a modern XK any day.

  • avatar
    frizzlefry

    I almost bought an XJ-S, black, when I was 20. The guy had it parked in a gas station parking lot. Asking price was 14,000 (this was in 1999) and I figured I could get a loan for sure! I called him up, asked him why he was selling it and his response was “Oh I am moving and going from a 4 car garage to a 3 car garage, don’t have room to park it anymore.” I was drooling. This car had “only” 74,000km on it, it was soooooo pretty and looked badass. God I wanted it. I started visiting it every day, looking at it. Drooling. I was about to take the leap. I went for one more visit before applying for the loan when two cops saw me looking at it and pulled over into the lot. “Nice car eh?” one cop says. I say “hell yeah, going to buy it I think”. Other cop says “Really? You know if it breaks you’re screwed, and it will break.” The other cop says, “When you bottom it out, you’re screwed.” My senses returned and I realized that the owner was likely trying to get ride of a money burner (smaller garage my butt) and sanity retuned. Much like it returned after a 3 month stint dating an insanely hot, but mentally unstable, blond chick…..but damn she was pretty. :)

  • avatar
    Ingvar

    I’ve always felt a kind of kinship between the XJ-S and one of William Lyons first creations, the SS1. There’s something in the purposeful stance, the windows, the lines, that tells me they are the first and last creations by the same man. So very consistent line of thought from the thirties to the seventies.

    http://www.motorbase.com/pictures/auctionlots/798953474/1672300349/tn_279.jpg

    http://www.motorbase.com/pictures/contributions/000120/std_1933_jaguar_ss_1.jpg

  • avatar
    Verbal

    No Baruth review is complete without tales of skirt and speed.

  • avatar
    Steinweg

    The XJ-S is a gorgeous car. I for one would only consider a straight-six example, and those are thin on the ground in North America where the twelve was the big draw for daft dentists and desperate housewives. I’m actually keen to have one that’s been modernized, i.e. rebuilt properly, as some companies do and as James May explored in a TG episode a few years back. The XJ-S and all Jags of the era were assembled with indifference from materials of suspect quality. But above all I think the design demands that as many as can be saved and put right, are.

    • 0 avatar
      salhany

      I believe the firm that modernizes these Jags (the one that May mentioned) is called Knowles Wilkins Engineering. Among other things they replace all of the car’s electrical bits with more stoutly built items, and re-engineer the suspension and engines. I would love an XJS that’s had this treatment; it would be a joy to drive and own.

    • 0 avatar
      Morea

      You can also have a manual transmission installed by any one of several different vendors.  (All US versions came with automatics.)

    • 0 avatar
      psarhjinian

      That is actually a really good idea.  There are all sorts of older, nicer cars that I’d certainly consider if they were modernized to meet safety, environment or reliability standards.  A V12 Jag with sealed wiring harness would make me feel better, for sure.
       
      The last time I was in Cuba I’d see stuff like this: older American iron with modern Japanese or Korean powerplants (eg, a ’57 Bel Air with a Mazda 1.8L under the hood) and safety belts retrofitted.

    • 0 avatar
      Steinweg

      Like some dudes would say that’s tampering with the original and it won’t pull 100 points at Pebble Beach, but I say, if Jaguar had had the time, money and willing workforce to build it properly they would have. Instead of holding it down, by upgrading the components you’re helping the car realize its potential.

  • avatar
    E30-LS1

    I had a fellow Engineer Friend who was a car guy: he and a friend had a midget dirt-track car, and they raced a 289 Cobra in the Midwest SCCA.  Their Cobra was almost always a winner; those guys were expert wrenchers at everything.
    So, I wasn’t surprised when my friend bought a brand-new V12 XKE (what a shameless fug-up of the original 6-cylinder car …….. ).  His electrics behind the dash burned on 3 different occasions, and he had an exhaust leak that he could never fix.  When he drove the car, he was like a dog sniffing the air — smelling for smoke –

  • avatar

    “(T)he XJ-S was created to replace the aging XKE (E-Type to us USians).”
    Actually, that’s bassackwards Mr. Baruth.
    Jaguar always called the E-type the E-type. American car dealers made up the “XKE” moniker. It was never called that by Jaguar, especially not in Old Blighty. Say “XKE” to a Brit and they won’t have the foggiest idea what you’re on about.

    “(T)he XJ-S was created to replace the aging E-type (or “XKE” to us USians).” would be the correct way to phrase it.

    • 0 avatar
      Ingvar

      “Say “XKE” to a Brit and they won’t have the foggiest idea what you’re on about.”

      He would know that he was talking to an American that hadn’t the foggiest idea of what he was talking about…

  • avatar
    stroker49

    No problems with old Brittish vehicles. The electrictric system sometimes leak and when the smoke is lost nothing works. You just have to fill the harnesses up again!
    http://www3.telus.net/bc_triumph_registry/smoke.htm

  • avatar
    mpresley

    As I’ve mentioned before, a colleague owns an S drop top.  OK to drive, great to look at, and even better to be looked at while driving.  Forget it, though.  Never try to get parts, but be prepared to keep a mechanic on retainer.  But he’s a psychiatrist, so he’s a little crazy, himself, and money is, apparently, no great object.
     
    An XJ’s the best argument for not being sentimental or emotional about cars.  That being said, the aesthetics of the car make the current Jaguars seem pitiful.

  • avatar
    Crosley

    Beautiful cars, a shame they had so many issues.  i’ve also thought about buying one as a toy, but I know it’s a death wish.
     
    I just do not understand WHY companies like this don’t farm out the stuff they don’t understand, and concentrate on manufacturing the parts their good at.  Land Rover is the same way.  Beautiful cars, inside and out, but ticking time bombs for the most part.  A good friend had a well-taken care of Range Rover, ridiculous amount of issues.
     
    Imagine a car this beautiful with Japanese-like reliability?  Why is that such a difficult concept.  Who care if it ticks off some purist snob that the electrical systems came from Japan?
     
     

  • avatar
    Educator(of teachers)Dan

    Love all Jags in the looks department, fear them in the mechanical department.  One day, knowing my personal insanity and need to cheat death, I’ll likely buy one.  (Hey I must be a thrill seeking death defy-er.  I lived in the same house as my ex-wife from February when she found out about my infidelity until first of August that year when the divorce became final.  And no she was not a calm, forgiving woman.)
     
    If I’m lucky it will be either an I6 model or an I6 model that has received a SBC and a GM transmission.

    • 0 avatar
      Russycle

      Ed, if you have the bug, an I6 Jag is not a bad way to go, as long as it’s a hobby, not daily trans.  Parts are easy to get if you know how to use the Interwebs, and they’re fun to wrench on if you have mildly masochistic tendencies.  Compared to living with a woman scorned, owning a Jag barely registers on the danger scale.
      I know a lot of people go the SBC route, but there’s something to be said for that big 6 purring along at speed.

    • 0 avatar
      Educator(of teachers)Dan

      I do all my own maintenance on a carburetor, air-cooled scooter.  I used to do everything that didn’t involve the transmission or actually separating heads from block on a 307 Oldsmobile V8.  Maybe I am a good candidate?  I know if I start looking and find a British Racing Green model with a tan interior, I won’t be able to resist.

    • 0 avatar
      Russycle

      I think you’d do fine, and there’s a helpful online community.  It does help to have a mechanically inclined friend with cool testing gear when the fuel injection gets frisky.   Be aware that most mechanics will run screaming like a girl when you pull up in a Jag, so it’s a good idea to find out if there’s any local talent willing to take over when you’re out of ideas (but not money, hopefully)
      I’m with you on the BRG/Tan, a pretty irresistible combo.
       

  • avatar
    tklockau

    The 4.0 litre XJS is a pretty reliable car. My parents bought a 1995 4.0 convertible from a friend in 2002, black over tan with black top. He was the first owner, prior to that it was the manager’s car at the Jag dealer in Elmhurst. It has been reliable and a lot of fun to drive.  It’s not a sports car, but it’s a great cruiser and looks like nothing else on the road.  It’s hard to believe how low these cars are until you stand next to one. I think they’re just as low as an E-Type.

  • avatar
    Syke

    Jaguar V-12. Four fuel pumps. Not necessarily all easily accessible. If one packs up, you’re stopped.

    I adore Jaguars. However, every time I’ve started looking for one, sanity returns and I end up with a BMW or Porsche.

  • avatar
    rwb

    Once accompanied a friend (seriously) to buy an ounce of (fake, turns out,) pot from a prattish Hopkinton rich kid who wasn’t quite as smart as his parents’ money. He had a Subaru Brat and a bright red 1979 XJ-S, which he claimed to be “fixing up.” Neither car worked. What we did about our situation wasn’t nearly nearly as bad as what he’d already done to himself.

  • avatar
    Zarba

    It’s heresy, but there’s a fair business in dropping SBC’s in old Jags.

  • avatar
    Joss

    Fancy cat litterbox shoveled thru many British Leyland tea breaks…

  • avatar
    itsgotvtakyo

    Enjoy your car burning to the ground when a coil dies on you. Beautiful cars though.

  • avatar
    LeaperNYC

    Jaguars are gorgeous aren’t they?!  Somehow no other carmaker has ever approached them in sheer desirability, short of exotics costing $250k+.

    I have loved these cats for as long as I can remember. The XJ-S is a particular favorite, and though historically overshadowed by the E-Type, remains downright sexy and the practical, modern grand touring choice. A Hollywood darling and the clear pick for a ride to the high school reunion.

    Repairs and upkeep are clearly an issue, as others have mentioned – anyone considering buying a classic Jag should immediately enrol in the nearest Jaguar club. Their monthly newsletter will probably lead you toward several local shops that have solid Jaguar experience, not to mention dozens or hundreds of nearby Jag fanatics who love to hang out around their cars.

    Jaguar’s rebirth in the current model generation is the greatest comeback story in modern automotive history. As the onwer of a 2009 XF Supercharged that just passed 2 years, I can tell you they are solidly assembled. Reliability gremlins were eradicated nearly a decade ago. They still aren’t up to Japanese quality standards, but fare no worse than Germans, Swedes, etc. Still, reputations change slowly, so the net result is Jaguars are surprisingly inexpensive to buy and maintain – basically, the company is forced to part with their thoroughbreds for less than the price of a German mule.

    Speaking of which, why any car enthusiast (ie TTAC reader) would buy a 5 series, E class, or A6 sedan over the comparable Jag is beyond me – hats off to the respective marketing departments. You are settling for inferior ride/handling balance, inferior aesthetics, snooty dealers, fewer horses, and more dollars. You can keep your vinyl and plastic – lets not even pretend that “German” and “luxury” go together! And oh, you’d best avoid me at a track meet, too..there’s a reason they named these cars after the fiercest predator of the Americas. Happy motoring!

    • 0 avatar
      itsgotvtakyo

      I’ll echo your sentiment on the reliability of the newer cars. My father had a 2000 XK coupe and a 2003 XKR coupe and never had a significant problem with either. The only complaint he had was after five years in the XKR the center armrest squeaked when you moved your elbow around. Not really appreciated in an 80k car but in the picture nothing more than a minor, occasional annoyance.

  • avatar

    I’m a confirmed Jaguar fan but the sail panels on the XJ-S just look plain awkward to me. If someone gave me a XJ-S V-12. I’d use it for the basis of a crazy Locost Se7en.

  • avatar

     
    I like the direction of the new engines, but those turbos are going to be crazy to fix out of warranty, I have a turbo 4 cyc with direct injection now and blew the long block, it was $9400 to fix, it came with a new turbo and installation, but lucky me Mazda picked up about 75% of it. I am imagine that Ford will have some long extended warranties, I hope that anyone considering getting a turbo truck gets one…

    • 0 avatar
      LeaperNYC

      What new turbo engines are you referring to? Perhaps you mean the AJ-V8 Gen III DI, which has Supercharged variants. I can’t recall when Jaguar last offered a turbo engine in the US.

      On the topic of engine rebuilds and overall reliability, I’ve suffered thru block issues requiring rebuilds in 2 separate Honda engines. Both were described as “extremely rare for a Honda” but there you have it. The second was replaced under warranty (’04 Accord V6 @36k); the first (in an ’88 Integra) came at 112k and I ran it till it was, oddly enough, stolen at 118k.

      Such experiences in Hondas and Mazdas surely put Jaguars in perspective. And by the way, Jaguar’s dealership service is over-the-moon good (that unfair reputation again.) When all is said and done, life is short, and believe me, it is better spent behind the wheel of a Jag!!

  • avatar
    UnclePete

    I owned one of these V-12 beasties for a while. Besides the excitement of tuning the beast, there is the constant checking for fuel leaks as well as making sure the ignition system doesn’t short out. Even with diligence in this area, my XJ-S caught fire one day and burnt.

  • avatar

    Beautiful vehicle, but frankly I would rather own a GM V8 frankenJag version. Most of the pleasure and less of the nightmare.

  • avatar

    Haha, it’s in Canton. I was there last weekend — my old stomping grounds.

  • avatar
    Tabasco

    I’ve had an ’85 XJ-S V12 for the last three years…. and yes, it’s a daily driver. The previous two owners must have driven it regularly as well; it has 213,000 miles on the odo. Reliability is great (starts every day). I bought it from a mechanic at a Jaguar delership who bought it off a four year lease from new. He parked it for the last five years after warping the heads and re-grinding them after an overheating episode. He needed room in his garage, and I bought it for $2000. I drove it home after a prolonged leak check. After a front end brake job, tightening a few hose clamps, changing the oil and brake fluid, and a new alternator she became my daily driver.

    I kept a ’94 Volvo 960 in reserve, but after nearly a year of never driving it, I sold it and committed to XJ-S commuting. Since then, I’ve replaced an intermediate exhaust pipe and a smog pump pulley, and that’s it.

    I thought it would turn heads, and it does… but I was hoping for winsome young lasses, but most of the gawkers are bald fat guys like me. Come to think of it, mine is the head it turns the most as I walk away from it in the garage at work, saying, “Damn, that’s a cool car.”

    Don’t badmouth the Batmobile… driven daily it will do just that… drive daily. 

  • avatar
    zeus01

    In 1981 I was a recent highschool graduate working at a Jaguar/Rover/Triumph/MG/Saab/Fiat/TVR dealership in Calgary as a lot attendant/car jockey looking for an auto mechanics apprenticeship.

    The XJ-S and other cars were a pleasure to drive, but the craptastic level of quality and workmanship shone through like a fresh cow pie wrapped in a single sheet of paper towel.

    The service bays were full of brand new Jags and other British junk that gave our mechanics endless headaches, and the back lot was filled with more junk waiting on the same failed components to arrive from England.

    But the worst was the arrogant sales and service staff, who stared far down their ample noses at anyone who dared bring a car in for unscheduled warranty service, and who took great pleasure in bragging about the customers they stiffed. That turned me off a career in auto mechanics. I eventually ended up as an AME, fixing whatever the pilots break.

    • 0 avatar
      CJinSD

      Jaguar/Rover/Triumph/MG/Saab/Fiat/TVR

      Wow. You guys were pretty much only missing Renault and Peugeot to cover the lowest quality cars available in North America in 1981. Or did you have Ladas then? It would be difficult to maintain the illusion of good intentions while selling Saabs, British cars, and Fiats. I worked at a dealer that sold Oldsmobiles, Hondas, Saabs, Subarus, and Chrysler corporation stuff in 1989. The sales staff that had experienced the previous decade of Honda growth were given to sneering at how they felt entitled to rip off customers at sales time, but the cars were the highest in quality. Nobody had anything but pitty for Saab customers, and it was normal for there to be 10 in for service for every one that was in new car inventory. We didn’t even bother trying to sell them used.

      • 0 avatar
        zeus01

        Ha! Now that you mentioned it this dealership in fact DID start selling Ladas around the time I left for greener pastures. A few years later they were out of business, and the building they operated out of is now a TD bank branch located at 500 58th Ave.South East, Calgary, AB.

      • 0 avatar
        CJinSD

        It is almost a relief when a bad dealership closes. The one I worked for was a complete systemts house that prided itself on shaking down every customer for thousands more than they should have paid. Result? They now advertise as ‘The Mid-Atlantic’s Largest’ automotive group. The ethical place people used to travel 35 miles to buy from after learning their lessons the expensive way at our store changed ownership in the past couple years and no longer is the ethical alternative.


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