By on October 28, 2010

Jing asks:

Well my question is fairly simple. I’m in the market for a new car and just like everyone else, I am trying to maximize the earning value of my money. I’ve been arguing with myself for over a month now trying to make up my mind but the more I try to focus on one particular car, the more I find my thoughts straying towards another. I have the feeling that inevitably I am going to be facing buyers remorse no matter what decision I ultimately make. With that being said, I don’t have a choice set in stone but ideally I want something sporty.

I originally had my eye set on the genesis coupe but I found my eye wandering towards the 370z instead. The base model is at the upper limit of my price range and while my heart says yes, my mind scoffs as it’s practicality or lack thereof. The alternative is either a Honda CR-Z (Yes, I know what most people here think of it) or a 2011 Kia Optima/Sonata plus a 650cc sport bike. The pricing is about the same for both options, but I cannot for the life of me decide whether to go with the more expensive (and cooler!) car or a more practical commuter coupled with a crotch rocket. What say you all?

Sajeev Answers:

Don’t lie to yourself. You couldn’t care less about maximizing your money’s earning potential. If that was the case, you’d be at Steve’s office signing the paperwork on a 2004 Buick Regal, or comparable. Take it from a fellow Asian person, you gotta try a lot harder to be cheap.  A zero option 370Z with your penchant for buyer’s remorse? That’s gonna work, for like a year.  And making two loan/insurance payments on a car and sport bike…let’s not even go there.

So what’s the middle ground?  Maybe a Genesis coupe, or a Sonata Turbo, if you keep either long enough to take advantage of the warranty and minimize the impact of depreciation.  If not, buy a 2-3 year old sports coupe, like a 350Z.  It’s certainly an enthusiast’s car but performance on a budget is the sole domain of the C5 Corvette.  The old-fart-Corvette stigma is a tough emotional hurdle but that’s how you go fast, carry plenty of stuff, get great fuel economy, and look cool. Don’t fool yourself, a C5 Corvette destroys everything in their wake. Buyer’s remorse won’t even have a chance.

Steve Answers:

Corvettes are for old people? You would be surprised how many young folks who aren’t self-anointed ‘cultural creatives’ end up buying them. The Corvette absolutely crushes the 370Z in virtually every objective measurement… including sales in the U.S. of A. Heck even Jeremy Clarkson, long-time critic of American cars, absolutely adores them.

I can’t believe this is even a question. Go get yourself the best bang for the buck sports car on the history of the planet. Test drive it. Notice how everything it does completely obliterates the sales failures that are the 370Z and the Hyundai Gene-snooz. Revel in the fact that the powertrain for this vehicle can easily last well past the 250k mark with proper care… and drive it. A two to three year old version with low miles will make the Nissan/Hyundai products look like the piss poor alternatives that they are.

Need help with a car buying conundrum? Email your particulars to mehta@ttac.com, and let TTAC’s collective wisdom make the decision easier… or possibly much, much harder.

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98 Comments on “New or Used: Buyers Remorse, C5 Vettes and Self-Anointed Cultural Creatives...”


  • avatar
    zznalg

    How about a WRX? You get practicality and some fun.

    • 0 avatar

      Not cheap to own in the long term. Plus, a C5 will eat it for breakfast.

    • 0 avatar
      Darth Lefty

      At just north of 100,000 miles, I have just replaced a cracked radiator and a dead center diff and a spun front wheel bearing.  The hatch rattles.  There are a few issues like the fuel leak that I fixed myself rather than wait for the service bulletin to turn into a recall.  Turning up the boost and getting harder springs surely haven’t helped with the reliability or rattles.

      And to be honest after the way I’ve hooned it for eight years it’s not likely to level out.  I wouldn’t want to be the second owner of a WRX, it’s too much fun to drive harshly.

    • 0 avatar
      PeregrineFalcon

      @Darth Lefty: Not trying to offend, but this is exactly why you don’t buy a used WRX or other hoonmobile. They’re just to fun to not kick the crap out of, up the boost, and otherwise tart up.
      Buy/lease a new one, beat the snot out of it, then just dial the boost back and sell it to some unaware sucker or return it.

    • 0 avatar
      jmo

      <i>Not cheap to own in the long term. </i>

      Really?  Rear diff on a WRX is $450.  Rear diff on a Vette is $1399.

      AC Compressor on a WRX is $285 on a Corvette is $395.

    • 0 avatar

      Rear diffs on a Vette almost never break, even with repeated abuse on dragstrips pushing way more power than stock. Overall these cars are tough, and the WRXs are not. I don’t buy your argument.

    • 0 avatar
      PG

      Listen, don’t be so fast to write off the WRX. I have an 08 with 70,000 miles on it, 40,000 of which are mine. The car’s been very reliable so far. A few quirks like a squeaky clutch and a faulty brake light sensor, but so far so good. It’s practical AND a blast to drive.
      Keep in mind your maintenance costs are a little on the high side, being a Subaru, but the car still has been pretty easy to live with. I’d buy another one, and probably will.

    • 0 avatar
      itsgotvtakyo

      @PG. That’s great, the WRX (former owner of a modified 02 wagon) is a great car. But let’s not pretend for one second that it can (in any guise, Sti included) even sniff a Corvette jock.

    • 0 avatar
      The Guvna

      “That’s great, the WRX (former owner of a modified 02 wagon) is a great car. But let’s not pretend for one second that it can (in any guise, Sti included) even sniff a Corvette jock.”…

      …unless it’s raining. Or snowing. Or you’re on broken tarmac, or unpaved roads.

    • 0 avatar
      grzydj

      @Sajeev Mehta
       
      How exactly is a WRX expensive to own long term? Insurance costs maybe?

    • 0 avatar
      M 1

      Two words: head gaskets.

  • avatar
    Flybrian

    I vote with Steve. As a younger man, an Asian man, and a sales-man who have been around C4s and C6s constantly over the past few years, the Corvette is the ultimate pre-owned bang for the buck. Most are relatively pampered and are exceptional bargains. I’d even lend a nod to a well-cared-for late-run C4 convertible 6-speed if you can find one.

  • avatar
    jmo

    <i>Revel in the fact that the powertrain for this vehicle can easily last well past the 250k mark with proper care</i>

    What about body integrity for the Vette and the Z?  I’ve heard the Vette quickly develops a cacophony of squeeks, rattles, pops and other assorted noises.  That can get pretty grating after a while.

  • avatar
    itsgotvtakyo

    Corvette is the only real answer here.

  • avatar
    ajla

    1. ’05-’06 GTO: if the pedal placement doesn’t bother you.
     
    2. Corvette C6 or C5 Z06: if the seats don’t bother you.
     
    3. Mazda Rx-8 R3: if the engine doesn’t bother you.
     
    4. Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution X GSR: if you don’t like the other 3.

    • 0 avatar
      The Guvna

      The GTO is a great suggestion. I wonder how long it will take for people to wise up about just what a damned good old-school muscle car this was. Until they do, however, those prices make them pretty irresistable for those in the know.

  • avatar
    hakata

    Oh sure, buy a ‘vette for your only car. You’ll have loads of fun in stop and go traffic on your daily commute and getting pulled over on the freeway going 10 over when the guy in the beater Corolla ahead of you was doing 95. And don’t forget all the space for carrying things. You’ll get out to a trackday a couple weekends a year and burn through a $400 set of tires, then drive home at 2/10ths cursing every speed limit sign you see. As a bonus, all women will think you’re a **** with a small **** who is desperate to impress.
     
    Get a car that is stealth and halfway useful but sporty like a CPO G37 sedan, S4, or Mazdaspeed 3. You can peel out of the Ikea with a bookcase in the trunk and carry at least four women home at once. Then get a 1971 Honda CB750 – much cooler than a crotch rocket, 1/5th the price, 1/8th the insurance, 4 times as fun, and at least 10 times as Steve McQueen. The hipsters, the rednecks, and the ricers will all shake their heads. Anoint yourself an independent, my friend.

    • 0 avatar

       
      @Hakata,
       
      You’re right.
       
      @Jing
       
      Go with the practical daily commuter and then buy yourself a motorcycle.

    • 0 avatar
      talkstoanimals

      Great bike the CB750.  Any of the modern standards or nakeds built off of crotch rockets are also more fun than the equivalent crotch rocket for one simple reason – you can ride them for more than an hour without lapsing into excrutiating pain.  But of all my bikes, the far and away best combination of fun and comfort was my Suzuki V-Strom 1000.  And talk about declaring yourself an independent…  Just don’t try to ride one with an inseam of less than 30 inches.

      That said, a few years ago I made the switch from practical car and motorcycles on the side for fun to just cars that are practical AND fun (Mustang GT and VW GTI).  Do I miss the visceral thrill of riding?  Yes.  Do I miss all the time and costs associated with the extra maintenance motorcyles in combo with cars entail?  Not one bit.

    • 0 avatar
      rocketrodeo

      As the former owner of no fewer than three classic CB750s (K2, K3, and SS), I can say with some authority that the generic crotch rocket would be a better idea.  Cool, yes, but the old 750 is seriously antiquated in terms of handling, braking, and (probably most importantly) tire choices.  A 1991-2003 CB750 Nighthawk would be a much better idea, depending on experience.
      An intelligently chosen sportbike would obviate the need for an even remotely sporty car, as the idea of speed on four wheels becomes slightly silly once you get habituated to four or five pounds per horsepower and 40mpg.

    • 0 avatar
      dswilly

      “and burn through a $400 set of tires,” -Correction you’ll burn through a $1200 set of tires

    • 0 avatar
      jeffzekas

      do NOT get a motorbike!!! any car will be better, because you will be seriously injured– or killed– on a bike… my oldest son was a reckless 19 year when he died on his honda… i shall spend the rest of my life grieving over the loss of my beautiful boy http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/zekasfamily/

  • avatar
    Domestic Hearse

    Our friend lists Asian makes in his initial wants, so I think he’s already leaning that direction.

    Jing, you’re not trying to maximize the earning potential of your money. What you’re going for is spending potential.
    And if you’re already predicting buyer’s remorse, it’s cuz you regularly experience it.

    So, let’s add these things up: You want the max car you can get for your dough + you’re trying to do it cheap = you’re expecting to be disappointed later.

    Time to get real with yourself. You like cool cars. Your friends like cool cars. You want some cred wheels. You don’t want your friends to bake on your choice. If you don’t spend up front for max coolness, you’re gonna just spend it later on go-fast add-on kit and wheels, so there won’t be any overall savings. And it still won’t be what you wanted.

    Conclusion? Nissan GT-R. Go big or go home. Bite off those big payments and chew like a man. But will you ever look at your car with remorse? No. Will your friends punk you? No. Will you have to screw with it later to make it as cool as you want? No.

  • avatar
    prj3ctm4yh3m

    S2000. period. The S2000 is a quick as a 350z when driven correctly, more reliable than a C5 (electronics, ahem), and gets extremely consistent fuel mileage regardless of how its driven (C5 ahem).
     
    PLUS it doubles as a sportbike. Its wayyy more fun than a 6500rpm redline SV650 or Ninja 650. Hell, off the track, its more fun than an R6. Trust me, Ive had four of them.
    Lets review:
    -reliable
    -quick
    -go-kart steering
    -top down cruisable
    -best tranny ever devised
    -8000 (or 9) redline
    -2800 pound curb weight
    -less than 19000 for a nice 06-07
     
    as a personal anecdote I turned down my dads C5 (And an 03 350Z) for an RSX type-S. The latter two just feel like boats. Especially if you have ever ridden a sport bike (or if you ever plan to); I have since bought an S2000 (biased cultist I know) in a James Dean color scheme that I will keep until the day I die.
     
    The s2000 checks all the boxes; objectively and subjectively

    • 0 avatar
      mikedt

      down vote because of digital dash. The rest of the car could be perfect and I would buy the miata over the s2000 simply because of the dash.

    • 0 avatar
      prj3ctm4yh3m

      thats incredible. dont throw the baby out with the bathwater here.
      The Honda is on another level viscerally speaking; you dont even need the tach (although it works far better when viewed with peripheral vision compared to analog anyway). You can easily tell by pitch where you are in the revs. 99.999999% of competition road cars rally cars and sport bikes use a bar tach as well; its in good company Id say (its not an 84 buick tach comon).
       
       

    • 0 avatar
      bunkie

      “PLUS it doubles as a sportbike. Its wayyy more fun than a 6500rpm redline SV650 or Ninja 650. Hell, off the track, its more fun than an R6. Trust me, Ive had four of them.”

      I haven’t driven an S2000, but I would argue night and day that it’s not as much fun as my Ninja 650. I love cars, but very few cars are as much fun on a twisty road as almost any sport bike.  My Ninja has a very intoxicating mix of low end torque (something reportedly lackin in the S2000) and top end rush. BTW, the redline on my bike is over 10,000RPM.  

    • 0 avatar
      talkstoanimals

      The S2000 is awesomely fun to drive.  Just don’t hit any potholes without a chiropractor on call.  Or carry much luggage.  Or expect any torque in normal driving.

    • 0 avatar
      prj3ctm4yh3m

      “6500 redline” — I should have said power peak.
       
      A sport bike is loads of fun on a good track; on the street its foolhardy to push the limits because of the multitude of unknowns that have a greater effect on two wheels than four.
       
      You ought to try a modern inline four if you want to try some top end rush. 08+ R6 especially.
      16,500 redline. 16000 power peak. Variable-length Velocity stacks. Unreal.
       

    • 0 avatar
      JuniperBug

      Actually, an SV’s torque peak is north of 7,000 RPM. Horsepower peak, depending on year, is around 9,000 RPM. If you like revs, bikes can’t be beat… not even twins. If you’re at least moderatly experienced and want a bike to learn to *really* ride, an SV is a great machine, by all accounts. Just look at all the amateur racing series for them.

      If the track isn’t your goal, though, I’d also suggest considering a sport touring bike. I went from a TL1000S to a VFR800 with hard bags, and love it. I actually corner faster on the VFR because it’s a more confidence-inspiring bike, the comfort and practicality don’t even compare, and what I lose in torque I make up for in revs (12,000 RPM redline). For 7 months out of the year it’s my only vehicle, rain or shine.

      Get yourself a comfy, practical, moderately fun car, and a lightly used sport touring bike.

  • avatar

    Jeez, I may have to go out and buy a Corvette! Never thought of it before.
    The ’04 even has “better than average” reliability according to CR. Of course, if I wanted that kind of performance I might go for the WRX… I like four doors. But the ‘Vette certainly would be tempting me if I wanted that kind of power.
    David (born 7.5 hrs before the first Corvette rolled off the line)
    PS: Sajeev, you’re a secret Asian man? Me, too (my ancestors came from Israel, which is in Asia minor).

    • 0 avatar
      ajla

      Of course, if I wanted that kind of performance I might go for the WRX… I like four doors.

       
      That’s what the original CTS-V and G8 GXP are for.
       
      I don’t know how CR rates those sedans though.

    • 0 avatar

      David,
      Actually, Israel is in both Asia and Africa. Though it’s topographically in Asia Minor, it’s geologically part of Africa. The Jordan River valley is a continuation of Africa’s Rift Valley. Israel, west of the Jordan valley is on the African side of the rift.
      So you’re African American too. Well, in addition to your alter bubbies & zaydes living in Egypt for a while.

  • avatar
    krhodes1

    I can’t see the appeal of a plastic penis extension, regardless of how fast the thing is. Just too, uh, TOO. And no fun at all at legal speeds. Nix the crotch-rocket – some SoccerMom in an Excursion on the phone will turn you into road pate. Plus while I see the performance appeal, to be safe you need a full helmet and leathers – not so comfy on a warm day.

    How about a lateral suggestion?  Go with a Miata or some such little convertible. Fun at much more sane speeds than a Corvette, cheaper to buy, own, and insure. As a car guy I often think I should get my bike license, but my Triumph Spitfire or Alfa Spider are close enough, and a lot safer (even if deathtraps by modern standards).

    • 0 avatar
      stryker1

      Good call. IIRC, TTAC is head over heels for the Boxster, which I’ve seen here and there moderately used in the 25k range.
       
      Also, WRT getting a bike. A friend of mine who just finished med school residency has taken to calling them “donor-cycles”. It’s a semi regular occurence for her to come back from lunch and be handed a sack full of what used to be a motor cycle rider. Screw leather, if you want even a modicum of safety you need to go for one of those kevlar suits. At least then the road is less like to shave your various limbs off as you tumble from the bike.

    • 0 avatar
      potatobreath

      Textile gear is breathable. Once you get moving, the wind cools you down in a jiffy too.

    • 0 avatar
      rocketrodeo

      @stryker1:  Your newly minted doctor friend sees only the riders who come up on the short side of the skill/judgment/experience spectrum.  Plenty of us old farts who have been riding for 30+ years and half a million and more miles who have never been in a serious accident. It ain’t just luck.  Medical malpractice kills a lot more people every year than motorcycle accidents.
       

  • avatar
    DearS

    Its a tough decision and emotionally agonizing cause imo, it has something to do with self esteem to a large degree. I suggest working on becoming more emotionally healthy and a better driver. Read some books from Melody Beattie (Codependents stuff) and Speed Secrets. Only so much fun a person can have when they need to learn about some emotional responsibility and honesty, its actually something found in Speed Secrets. To reach my goal for personal well being and driving enjoyment, this I what I found I needed. The car comes 3rd or 4th or worse. A 350Z, a Vette, a Bimmer, a bike, or a Sonata won’t change someone inner process that much imo. I personally would rather have a much more affordable car and good skills, positive attitude, and emotional balance than any particular car.
    Still it is a fun question to ponder, and actually contemplate getting a (supposedly) great car and the life experiences said ownership has mystified folks with. Neither a 350Z nor a Vette deliver my personal preference of driving dynamics, though both offer valuable lessons and fun experiences none the less. An E46 and G37 I like more.

  • avatar
    twotone

    Three-year-old M3
    Done!

  • avatar
    prj3ctm4yh3m

    u DONT want a 986 boxster. dont even listen to that. youre better off with an old ducati if you want something to dump money into.

    BTW Jeremy Clarkson nuts over the S2000 more than the boxtser (and the Z3 FWIW) so there.

  • avatar
    zznalg

    Okay, here’s a wild card. A 2008 Saab Turbo X (they only made them in 2008) if you could find one. I bought a pretty highly modified one for mid-twenties six months ago and it’s a lot of fun, highly stealth and all season. My car has over 300 hp, great gobs of torque, handles fantastically, gets decent mileage, has terrific seats and excellent ergonomics. Expect some electrical gremlins as all 9-3’s of this generation have them as well as not the best interior plastics. But, this is a great looking car and an amazing ride. For the record, my car has a software chip, a short throw manual shifter, a reinforced frame for extra stiffness, some brake customization, Optiflow intake and perhaps a bit more. One thing it is not though is a sport-bike on 4 wheels. Go for the S2000 for that.

    • 0 avatar
      akitadog

      zznalg, I saw a Turbo-X SportCombi w/ a 6-speed manual online for sale (the holy grail of Turbo-Xs). I was strongly considering calling up, but it disappeared within a few days of listing. Can you compare it’s handling/dynamics to any other car out there? How about acceleration or shifter feel? If I can find another one anytime in the future, I might consider one. thanks for your help.

  • avatar
    pariah

    Let’s think outside the box here: forget all about the road and the track and going 150mph on them. You could broaden your horizons a little, and maybe try something new — pick up a used Cherokee, throw a lift and some swampers on there and say “F*** the beaten path!” You can have just as much fun going 10mph as you can have going 100mph, you just need the right vehicle.

  • avatar
    Sam P

    C5 > Boxster from a reliability and cost of ownership perspective.
    Anyone considering a Boxster needs to seriously look at how many IMS failures the things have (often right out of warranty).
     
    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2008/11/wild-ass-rumor-of-the-day-porsche-boxster-engine-failures/
     
    http://www.lnengineering.com/ims.html

  • avatar
    dartman

    Find an unmolested 91-96 300zx twin turbo, spend a little for exhaust, cold air, chip and waste gate “cheaters” and you will have the original “Godzilla” that will make C-5’s tremble with fear–drive it, maintain it and keep it because it is increasing in value everyday, then buy a good used UJC of your choice for a daily driver/commuter.

    • 0 avatar
      dolo54

      I have a 300zx 2+2 NA. They are awesome (and come from the factory with CAI). The TTs can be reliably modded to 500hp with less than $2000 in upgrades. They are fairly reliable for what they are, but maintenance is expensive and difficult due to the completely stuffed engine bay.
      Check this out: http://twinturbo.net/nissan/300zx/FAQ/appendixz.aspx#Stages
      Hard to find a completely ‘unmolested’ one, but they are out there. Expect to spend $15k for one.

    • 0 avatar
      protomech

      I have a friend that went that route. It’s spent more time on a lift than it has on four wheels. Anecdote != data, but they’re not especially friendly cars to work on according to him.

    • 0 avatar
      dartman

      I currently have a 91 TT in my driveway, other than exhaust, cai, and chip, it’s near bone stock, conservative 425+ hp; as reliable as an anvil at 125k miles.  Paid $10k in 2007 I am the 2nd owner These engines as I recall were used in near stock configuration for the Lemans/IMSA racers which were easily tuned to 700-800hp using stock blocks, cranks and con rods. This is one stout engine. (p.s the stock air induction is a very good system, but for $200 you can pick up 7-10hp with a dual cone set-up.) It’s a sports car; it’s sophisticated; Ferraris and Porsches aren’t easy to work on either (and the Z is way easier than either of those!) If you want easy to work on buy a honda or a truck.  This car was so advanced for it’s time it still compares favorably to anything available after nearly twenty years!  Twin Turbos, variable valve timing, 4 wheel steering, ABS, electronically adjustable shocks, and on and on an on.  You know what the difference between the z32 300zxTT and BMW’s twin turbo is?…..(drum roll please…) the fuel pump actually works on the Nissan! 

      Before the TT, I had a 91 300zx 2+2 NA, great car; but when compared to the TT…well…what can I say. It was my son’s starter sports car and served him well, and after I felt he could responsibly handle the TT we upgraded him to the TT.

  • avatar
    LUNDQIK

    Man you are all over the place!  Sedan? Hybrid Car? Sports Car?

    I think it depends a bit on where you are in life and where you see yourself going. 

    I had the flashy “look at me cars” for a few years in my early to mid 20s.  I also had the payments to go with ’em.  Sports cars are great if its really just you and maybe a GF, dont have a house, an outdoor hobby, a dog, a long commute, or live with snow.  They are great 2nd toy cars. 

    A “livable” sports car always ends up being a compromise.  I bought a beater SUV to supplement my toy habit and found I was driving that MOST of the time.  On a great day the manual sports car came out – all other times (long drives, traffic, moving things, snow, etc) the SUV.

    Ultimately I sold the toy and bought a new SUV.  I supplement that with a motorcycle when I want fun.  Bikes are real cheap solutions to the itch.  Under $2k will get you a nice 600cc bike.

    But things change and my bike will probably turn into a used S2000 once I have a kid.

    My point is: Don’t make the toy transportation your focus.  Get the car that makes the most sense for now and the near future – THEN supplment that with a toy.  Or hell – maybe you’re one of the lucky ones that can live with a sports car everyday.

    Best of luck!

    • 0 avatar
      Dukeboy01

      +1 Life changes quickly between age 21 and age 35, but car payments last 60 months. I know you’re not going to listen, but try to take a moment to benefit from other’s experiences:

       In September of ’98 at the age of 22 I bought a 1996 Pontiac Firebird Formula. In November of ’98 my wife was pregnant and in August of ’99 I was trying to wrestle my firstborn bundle of joy into the backseat of either the ‘Bird or my wife’s Chevy Beretta. I found it was easiest to do when the T-tops were off. We spent a year dealing with a family fleet that only contained 2- door coupes before I ended up trading in my hot rod (that I was, of course, upside down on) for an extended cab pickup. 

      Now I’ve got a pickup truck and a Honda Odyssey, both of which are paid off, to cover my family’s vehicular needs. Last week I picked up a pampered 2002 Camaro SS with less than 11K miles for 45% of what a new 5th gen Camaro 2SS would have cost. My automotive want is now satisfied, but if somethng carzy were to happen and I needed to turn it in, I would still have my needs taken care of.  Be patient, get a semi- fun car or truck that can still serve as a Mommy Wagon should the need arise, and wait to get a two- door sport coupe until after your other automotive needs are satisfied  

    • 0 avatar
      Dukeboy01

      My suggestions for “practical, but fun” car at this point would be a 4- door Honda Civic Si with the stick; a used (duh) 2008 or 2009 Pontiac G8 GT or GXP; or a Dodge Charger/ Magnum/ Chrysler 300 with the Hemi.

      Are they as cool or as fast as a 370Z or Corvette? Nope.

      Will you be happier three or four years from now when you’re trying to wrestle a crying, squirming child into a carseat and you need a lot or room for diaper bags, pack and plays, groceries, dog kennels, random lengths of lumber, PVC pipes, and strollers? Yes.

  • avatar
    zznalg

    I agree with LUNDIK wholeheartedly. That is why I like cars like the Turbo X. General livability and usability in a great well rounded package. There are many other cars in that category. I also have an E46 M3 convertible and a Tacoma. Before I had the Saab, guess which vehicle I drove most? The Tacoma.

  • avatar
    talkstoanimals

    Here’s a thought that’s a bit out of the ordinary – CPO BMW 135i.  It’s so odd looking it’s kind of cool.  It’s fast.  It’s mildly practical and pretty comfortable.  The interior is a little low rent, but on that score it’s a Bentley compared to a Corvette.  Or, take a page from one Edward Neidermeyer and find a clean Z3 M Coupe.

  • avatar
    potatobreath

    I’d totally go for the Sonata and supersport bike option. Sonatas don’t feel like cheap cars; they have quite a kick to them despite being four-bangers.

  • avatar
    bunkie

    >>Also, WRT getting a bike. A friend of mine who just finished med school residency has taken to calling them “donor-cycles”. <<

    Ah yes, the obligatory 'Donor Cycles' comment. Wow, had I listened to some wet-behind-the-ears, know-it-all-resident, I could have lived my last 37 years without the unnecessary joy of riding my various motorcycles. Thanks!

    Life is dangerous. And, at times, a hell of a lot of fun. Serious motorcyclists master their irrational fears, manage risk and, as a result, become safer drivers, two wheels or four. The supposed safety of being inside a car is, largely, an illusion.

    • 0 avatar
      northeaster

      Yes and no.

      As a 50 year-old survivor of both medical residency and motorcycle ownership, I completely agree that riding a bike increases one’s awareness of driving well in a way that daily use of a Corolla never will.

      However, while the ttac readership might identify itself as the “best and brightest,” it could well be that Jack Baruth’s survival of numerous chancy circumstances doesn’t prove his skills as an excellent driver confer immunity from the laws of physics, which get you in the end.

      IIHS statistics tend to bear this out, as well (http://www.iihs.org/research/qanda/helmet_use.html).

      While most of these people could have died while learning to be safer, there is no illusion as to the numbers.

    • 0 avatar
      rocketrodeo

      Well put, sir.  Motorcycles have excellent primary or “active” safety assuming competence on the part of the rider; they are hard to beat for staying out of accidents.  A car three feet into my lane may or may not require a change of line, for example. A bike’s acceleration, maneuverability and minimal road footprint has the edge on nearly all cars.

      Secondary or “passive” safety is a different matter. That depends almost entirely on the choices you made before you got on the bike. But as my friend says, it’s a poor sort of motorcyclist that lets himself get taken out by a slow, lumbering cage.

    • 0 avatar
      bunkie

      As I said, it’s about risk management. I don’t drive or ride like Jack Baruth. In my opinion, he’s lucky that he’s still alive.
      I compartmentalize. Riding is about nothing else. It’s not about getting somewhere or going out to meet my friends at a bar or commuting. I ride just for the pleasure and challenge. When the helmet (and gloves, leathers and boots as well) go on, the mindset changes. It requires more concentration and attention. And, I would argue, nothing brings home the hard reality of the laws of physics like riding a motorcycle. The result of this level of concentration is a seeming contradiction: nothing is a as calming as a good ride.
      There are an awful lot of people who should avoid motorcycles because they lack the discipline to ride safely. I submit that it is these people who make up the largest part of the casualties in the statistical base.
      But my main point is that taking risks is often very rewarding. I’ve learned to ignore the doomsayers because they will never understand the sheer joy that comes from the experience. Life is to be lived.
      BTW, I second the idea of the Corvette. I drove my sister’s C6 and it’s an absolute rush, a car with real soul, an example of what America still does really well.
       

  • avatar
    RRocket

    “Corvettes are for old people? You would be surprised how many young folks who aren’t self-anointed ‘cultural creatives’ end up buying them.”
     
    Yea, I would be surprised.  Since GM’s own research says that the average buyer of the C6 is 54 years old, and it keeps going up with every generation. (It was 49 years old for the C5)

    • 0 avatar
      HoldenSSVSE

      I guess Audi’s are just for “old” people too, the average age of an Audi buyer is 52.
       
      The average age of a new car buyer of all makes/models aggregate is an absolutely decrepit 48 years old.
       
      Could it be that the average 25 year old doesn’t have $60,000 to plunk down on the hood of a C6 Vette???

  • avatar
    jkross22

    Go drive a G8 GT or GXP and report back.  You’ll have the speed, practicality and good looks… get the GXP if you want that level of performance and don’t look back.
     
    The Vette’s great, but if it’s your only car, not sure it’s the right move, even if you are single.

  • avatar
    John R

    Jing, that old-fart Corvette stigma Sajeev is talking about? See Steve’s comments as an example of one its symptoms. Kind of obnoxious ain’t it? Hell, it should be called a Corvette Disease as there really is no age requirement.
     
    Jing, you got yourself $30k? Do yourself a solid and get low miles pre-owned Infiniti G-coupe. Good interior (can’t be said about any ‘vette of any vintage or trim), sufficiently rapid, practical, handles well, and looks good. Trust me, this thing is remorse proof.
     

  • avatar
    Zarba

    +1 for the G8 GT/GXP.  The only problem is they are getting scarce, and demand seems to be keeping prices high. However, there are few V8 RWD Performance cars that are affordable.

    • 0 avatar
      HoldenSSVSE

      Demand is very high.  I have a buddy who told me that G8 GTs are selling for $25K – at auction, when they can find one.  Dealers are selling them for $28K.  If they get a trade they’re giving $23K and selling for $25K to $26K.  Every now and then you can find a desperate GXP owner with financial troubles selling in the low $30s; but it is very rare.  Most are selling for $36K to $40K – roughly what people sold them for.
       
      I didn’t read all the replies and was tardy to the party, but I recommended the G8 GT/GXP also.

  • avatar
    cmdjing

    Wow, I really appreciate everyone’s input and breath of expertise. I had never even considered a Corvette primarily because I am not too keen on the melted wax styling of the latter generation corvettes. I often see one of the older purpleish 70’s stingray corvettes driven by an even older gentlemen and my god is that car simply sex on wheels. I don’t know what happened to GM designers since then but I can only suspect copious amounts of cocaine. Also I am somewhat wary of GM reliability, particularly in a used car. My first car, a used mid 90’s Mustang, somewhat soured me on used American cars. Not fun pulling over on the side of the highway because of coolant boiling and waiting for mom to show up in her near indestructible 92′ Corolla.

    Speaking of used domestics, does anyone here have any first hand experience with either the Solstice GXP or its sister car, the Saturn Sky redline?

    I had been eyeballing (well eyef*cking really) a barely used 2009 SV650SF that was going for about 4k but a recent incident led me to rethink my youthful invincibility. I was on my way home a week ago and was hit by a seventy year old woman in one of those domestic land yachts. I live in South Florida so they are a relatively common navigational hazard. Basically I was minding my business going only 40mph and at a lightless intersection the aforementioned woman rolls into incoming traffic to make her turn while I am maybe 20 ft in front of her. No time for the brakes so I swerve hard to avoid her, but need to swing back to avoid hitting the divider curb. She doesn’t even bother to brake and proceeds to hit me dead center with her bumper (I saw the aftermath) on the rear wheel fender. I escaped from the accident with nothing more than a cracked hubcap but it was my first accident in the 10 years since I got my license.

    On a bike I could have maybe made a wider turn and avoided being hit altogether, but then again I could have ended up sliding 20 ft with a crushed leg or worse.

    • 0 avatar
      hakata

      The SV650 is the ideal modern middleweight in my opinion (although if you can find a Honda NT650, even better). The V-Twin is much more torquey than a screaming short-stroke 4 – and torque is what you want everywhere except the longest straights on the track.

      But you have observed the reality. If you ride bike regularly in busy traffic, you almost certainly will get bumped/knocked down/have to kick a door at some point. Bikes are best taken straight out of town to the country roads/track, where the only real danger is yourself. Avoid multi-lane commercial surface arteries whenever possible – that guy who just looked you in the eye will pull out in front of you and you’ll have about one second or less to figure out what to do. If you do get the bike, practice, practice, practice your evasive maneuvers and ride smart and safe – then open it up on the track/back roads. After that any car – Corvette or otherwise – will pale in comparison.

  • avatar
    carve

    I was faced with a similar decision two years ago.  I drove the C5, C6, 350Z, S2000, WRX and WRX STI, Z3, Z4, and G35.  I wound up with a CPO 335i.  At my altitude, it’s as fast or faster than any of those cars, handles better than all but the S2000, and is as practical as any of them (WRX is about the same there).  CPO means 6 year /100k warranty, and this big recall will probably drive their value down  a touch (sucks for me- good for you).  A truly fantastic machine.  If you want to save a little coin, get a 135i.  They’re less comfy, less practical, and weirder looking, but the slightly lower weight and shorter wheelbase makes them slightly more fun to drive, and they’re cheaper.  The 135/335 are also FAR more classy than any of the other cars I mentioned.  Make sure you get one with the older N54 twin turbo, vs. the N55 single.  Much easier to modify.  In fact, the N54 is an extra-cost option now in some of this year’s BMW’s (e.g. 335 is, 1M)

  • avatar
    Kendahl

    Consider an Infiniti G35 or G37 depending on what you can afford. Don’t turn up your nose at the sedan models’ they are a lighter than the coupes and should be a little faster. For winter, there are all wheel drive models. Unless you need an SUV or van, the sedans have plenty of room. Although the coupe trunks are small, you can get a lot of stuff into the back seat. Don’t buy anything older than 2005; Infiniti was still debugging the earlier ones.

  • avatar
    Educator(of teachers)Dan

    Vette.  While you’re young and irresponsible.  Take it from someone who at age 33 thinks his window for such a vehicle may have closed till retirement.

  • avatar

    I just came *this* close to buying an ’08 RX8, and think it might be a good match here.  It’s stylish, got a fantastic (if slightly weird) motor that redlines at 8000+, seats 4 adults, has a trunk that will hold yer groceries, and is really fun to drive.  There were only 2 things that kept me from closing the deal: I’m about an inch too tall to really be comfortable – I had to recline just a little farther than I would like for a really good driving position.  The second thing was wife-related.  It’s got a weird hump on the passenger-side floor where some of the transmission lives.  It’s apparently not a comfortable thing, and since my wife found it annoying I therefore was annoyed by it.  Not that I would ever have to deal with it personally, but I would hear about it too much to be worth the headache.
    But it just might be a good choice.  Revving that motor to 8000 RPM is a wondrous sound and feeling, and while you won’t win any drag races you’ll have more fun on a curvy road than in a vette.
    I wound up buying a Mini Cooper S Clubman instead.  A little less back-seat room than the RX8, and maybe not quite the awesome driving dynamics, but pretty damn good for a car I’m commuting in every day.  I know that’s not going to fly compared to the cars this guy is looking at, but it’s a hell of a car and the girls won’t think you’re compensating for other deficiencies.

  • avatar
    chaparral

    I’ve owned a 1999 C5 Corvette for a year now.

    Five things that I haven’t seen so far in the comments.

    1) It is immensely reliable and cheap to run. I have spent under $250 on maintenance and repairs so far and haven’t neglected anything. Flush the coolant every five years, change the synthetic oil when the car tells you to, drain the clutch and brake fluid reservoirs with a turkey baster and refill every oil change, change the sparkplugs when you get a misfire. That’s about it. Wait; I had to replace two $4 aftermarket exhaust hangers. It has spent every day in service.

    2) A Corvette is a very big car. The nose is miles in front of you, the tail miles behind, and it is over six feet wide. Fortunately, this also goes for the cabin. Anyone shorter than Hakeem Olajuwon will fit before the tracks are all the way back. The cargo area is very large as well.

    3) The 346-CID engine plays in a different league from the lesser machinery in this discussion. The throttle travel is long, the power is progressive, and you are still always aware that you have fewer than ten pounds per horsepower. 25 to 75 in second gear takes four seconds – and that is useful on the road. The powerband starts at 2500 and runs to the 6250 rev limiter – and that is useful on the road. It will pull the brutal third gear to 108 MPH – and THAT is useful when somebody tries to block you from overtaking. It sounds right, too, with any decent aftermarket exhaust.

    4) For highway cruising it is difficult to beat a car this slick and relaxed, with the twelve-CD changer, the ice-cold GM A/C, and the relaxed engine. It really is only turning 1500 at 70, and I have gotten 35 MPG tank-average once. On the back roads, it is difficult to beat a very well balanced car with a center of gravity that low and tires that wide. Then ye olde boat motor decides it wants to be a part of the show and you get an adjustment – yaw angle – that other cars simply don’t have on the road. It’s friendly, it’s responsive, it’s relaxed, it just happens to be going… well, the statute of limitations in New York State still hasn’t expired on that particular run yet.

    5) The instrumentation is the best in any road car by miles and miles. It will take you a week to get used to the HUD and about thirty seconds in another car to wonder why all of them don’t have it. The digital display is also quite useful. You can improve your driving watching your instant and average fuel mileage, and then check your tire pressures. Porsche’s Sport Chrono timer costs $900 and they advertise it as part of their connection to motorsport. The Elapsed Time feature on the Corvette is the fifth menu item on the “Trip” button and merits two lines in the owner’s manual.

    They do the same thing, and that I think sums up this car very well. It does things very few other cars can, intimidates novice drivers into driving it safely, rewards expert driving, and is relaxed and unassuming about all of it.

    • 0 avatar
      Flybrian

      Chaparral,

      I despise that post and you for making it. I despise it because it makes me want to blow the rest of our floorplan on another C5 ‘Vette tomorrow just so I can play for a few weeks!

      I also wish to add that as a person who usually lets the slushbox dieties shift for me, a 6-speed C5 Corvette is surprisingly simple to drive. The short throw and raised transmission tunnel means rowing through the gearbox is as simple as flicking your wrist and forearm to and fro mere inches.

      Seriously…I’ve got to find a ‘Vette now…damnit!

    • 0 avatar
      itsgotvtakyo

      Bless you, friend, you get it. The only thing I might argue is that, for me, at 6’2 and 270 with short legs and a long torso, it isn’t a large car. If I didn’t live in Connecticut and I didn’t need four doors for clients and such there isn’t a single thing that would stop me from owning a ridiculous Corvette.

    • 0 avatar
      Dukeboy01

      +1 on what Chaparral said, particularly his third point about the engine. The LS1 motor is just awesome. It powers my 2002 Camaro SS and it pulls like a freight train. I averaged 23.5 mpg on the 450 mile trip I had to bring it home with the cruise control set to 81 mph except for the times I kicked it down to pass a left lane bandit on the right. I found myself looking at smaller and smaller gaps in the traffic and thinking “Yeah, I can make it.” And I could.

      I was nearly home (and had behaved myself pretty well during a 6 hour trip by myself with a brand new to me car) when I noticed a newer Mercedes Benz E350 flying up behind me. I was doing about 82, so he had to have been doing over 85. I waited until he reached the point where he was going to have to start braking for me and I punched it. The transmission kicked down and I just walked away from him. Ran up to about 120 in the time it took me to type the first five words of this sentence and put a half mile of distance between us.

      I slowed down to 80 or so again and let the E350 catch up. He was coming faster this time, probably doing 90 or close to it. I waited again until he was close and then just walked away again. I did it four more times before I let him go. He was getting quite upset.

      Now I know the E350 isn’t the most powerful MB out there. Stiill, it was fun.  

  • avatar
    ciddyguy

    Jing,
     
    After reading this post and the subsequent comments from the readership, I will agree on several things, you need to be more honest with yourself about what YOU want out of a car and by that, how you live Vs what you want and not by some intangible means like street cred by your peers, being a chick magnet etc but by what makes YOU happy to own it.
     
    Also think about reliability and cost of repairs, being cheap is not always going to get you what you want at what you CAN afford. First off, if you have limited funds, don’t go for cars that require lots of maintenance and/or expensive maintenance. Many German cars are that way unfortunately, they tend to be more trouble prone from what I’ve read, generally and when they DO break down, not necessarily cheap to fix if out of warranty.
     
    That said, to get practicability and good driving dynamics does often mean some kind of compromise so you will have to strike a balance as to what you will accept but if you want a TRUE sports car, practicality won’t win there, as you’ll most often end up with something like the Corvette, Miata etc, 2 seaters that may or may not be able to haul luggage/stuff.
     
    The best thing I can say is, be honest with yourself, test drive and be realistic with what you want because as it sounds right now, you’ve set yourself up for unrealistic expectations and thus the buyer’s remorse syndrome – and are anticipating such happening so before you do anything. really think things over and be honest with yourself first, the rest will fall into line.

  • avatar
    Steven Lang

    Just came back from an auction… I’ll try to fill in a few cracks here…
    Domestic reliability belongs in two distinct categories.
    Front wheel drive domestic vehicles have historically trailed the Toyonda vehicles.
    The quality variations in this segment are now on a model-by-model basis. Fusion is more reliable than a Camry. Corolla is more reliable than a Focus..  Anything is more reliable than a Suzuki Forenza etc. There is a far greater variance in material quality these days than in durability. Everything sold today on average can last past the 200k mark.
    Rear wheel drive vehicles from GM and Ford (and Jeep) usually have outstanding reliability.
    A well kept Suburban, Silverado, F150, Vette, Grand Cherokee or Tahoe will easily last past 250k and still drive very well. The powertrain parts that make up these vehicles are exceptional in their durability.
    As it applies to sports cars, the only two models that compare well with the Vette for long-term reliability and sportiness are the S2000 and the MX-5.  Both of which are just plain murderous on the highway. All the other models are either oriented towards luxury (Genesis, Infiniti), costly to keep (3-Series, A4/TT, Saab) or have long-term wear issues (WRX, RX-8, Porsche). The 370Z is probably the sole exception to this. But it’s as competitive with a Vette as the Scion Tc is to a Mustang.
     
    In the end, I don’t have your tastes. But if you are looking for a sports car, the Vette and the Mustang (not the 15 year old one you had that probably shared the same V6 as a Ford Windstar) are the current gold standards of this segment.
    Take this with a grain of salt that comes from someone who currently has two Hondas and a Toyota on his driveway. The domestics offer the better product when it comes to sports cars.
     

  • avatar
    itsgotvtakyo

    Steve Lang is such a Dude. Like your style man.

  • avatar
    George B

    Jing,
    Most of my engineering coworkers are Asian men.  I have never seen them buy anything other than Asian brand cars, mostly boring family models consistent with their married with children status.  For suitable single guy transportation, I like a used 1st gen Infiniti G35/37 Coupe plus possible aftermarket upgrades to shift the balance more toward sport and less toward luxury.  The G Coupe doesn’t have much of a back seat, but it does have just enough room for Asian women and the styling is good enough to attract 3 cute passengers.  Try doing that with a Corvette.
     

  • avatar
    Zarf

    A bit late to the party but I’ll add my story anyway.
    The wife owns a Miata.  We were looking for something more interesting and decided a Boxter S would be great.  Loved it.  We decided that $62K was a bit much though to get more excitement since the Miata is actually quite fun.
    We instead of bought 2 motorcycles and left the other $48K in the bank.  The Miata comes out when we need to carry something and the bikes come out any other time.
    *Full disclosure, we do have a practical 4 door as well.

  • avatar
    MattPete

    The Genesis Coupe looks to much like an old Mitsubishi Eclipse or a Dodge Avenger.  I don’t know what their stylists were thinking, and I wouldn’t waste my money on that car.
     
    A used Corvette makes much more sense.

  • avatar
    Zackman

    None of the above.

    Buy a used Impala SS, save your money, carry your stuff, carry 3 of your friends and dream your dreams and sleep well at night knowing you made a good decision! Plan for the future.

  • avatar
    Mercennarius

    Buy the 370Z, hands down.

    Its got the straighline performance of the C5 Corvette, better handling, better braking, 10 times better interior, much more fun to drive, looks much more modern, and is very reliable. Not to mention its going to come with a long warranty, something you can’t get in a used C5 corvette. In fact, test drive both, you’ll intstantly realize why the 370Z is the better “sports car”.

    • 0 avatar

      Its got the straighline performance of the C5 Corvette, better handling, better braking…
      I’d love to know how you came to that conclusion.

    • 0 avatar
      chaparral

      Where did you get THAT information?
      370Z runs the quarter in 13.5 at 105 or so and tops out in the low 160s.
      Plain C5 runs 13.0 at 108 and goes around 175.
       
      The Corvette is lighter, has wider tires, and has double wishbone suspension front and rear. Its straightline edge is nothing compared to its exit speed edge.

  • avatar
    HoldenSSVSE

    Pontiac G8 GT.  Go dealer certified used, low miles, beware of ones with bling bling rims and OTR intakes, try to find one stock.  Expect to pay $25K to $28K depending on where you live, find a production date after October 2008 (they are rare) and ones with the number sequence 9L2 or 9L3 in the VIN.
     
    You get a near LS2 under the hood (L76 Aussie version), the Corvette and CTS-V tranny and rear end, seating for five, blistering performance and an instant collectible.  If you drive it like it has an egg under the gas pedal you can get 18/25 MPG.  Plenty of cred on the street and track, and on CR’s recommended used car list.  You would even get the balance of the 3/36 5/100 warranty.

  • avatar
    tbp0701

    I’m very late to this, but:
    On the Infiniti G – I test drove a G35 a week or so ago.  Nice car with responsive handling, but absolutely no steering wheel feedback.  That’s probably a dealbreaker for me.  I’ve also owned two Nissans (pre Renault) and found them to be a unique mix of brilliance and “what the hell?!” I’m not sure I want that experience again.
     
    To muck things up – I’ve seen used RX-8s for surprisingly low prices (like $12-13K for under 40K miles on occasion). I’m tempted to get one, but I suspect a lot of owners are surprised by the car’s thirst for both oil and premium fuel, novella of TSBs and the realization that very few people know how to work on them.  Despite that, they’re still awesome.  I’ve also seen NSXs occasionally listed for almost reasonable prices.  Not exactly any room at all, but it’s an NSX, a remnant that onceuponatime Honda not only could build a mid-engined, RWD sportscar, but it actually would.  And for super practicability and the senselessness of mating a turbocharged economy engine to a FWD 5-door wagonish thing, there’s the Mazdaspeed 3.   Still, none of those are in Corvette or even Mustang class, but they’re all pretty unique in their own ways.

  • avatar
    jmo

    Overall these cars are tough, and the WRXs are not.

    I assume you have some data to back that up?

  • avatar

    It’s all over the Internet, ping Karesh if interested.  Not to mention Subaru’s notorious warranty claim denials and the sheer number of exploding Boxers on their forums.  Exploding LS motors?  Not without a 250-shot of NOS, racing slicks and redline clutch dumping.

  • avatar
    Matthew Sullivan

    How many of y’all singing the C5 Vette’s praises have actually driven a Vette on a track? Or at all?

    I drove a C6 Z51 (comparable to a C5 Z06) on track and on a several hundred mile road trip.  It had almost no steering feel at all.  The pedals were not properly placed for heel-toe.  The seats did not hold me in place;  I just slid back-and-forth between the massive trans tunnel and the door.  The shifter action was,  to quote the aforementioned Vette fan Jeremy Clarkson,  like a “Victorian signal switch”.  And let’s not even talk about the 1st-to-4th shift lockout.  And even though a Vette is barely wider than a Boxster, it feels massively proportioned.

    Yeah, it’s objectively fast, Steve. But subjectively, America’s premier sports car is missing most of what makes a sporty car feel sporty.

    And the Vette did not even feel as fast as it actually was.  The tall gearing and relatively low-revving engine with massive torque combined to just push you forward on a never-ending wave of linear thrust.  By contrast, the Evo VIII I owned at the time felt faster due to its non-linear turbo engine response – even though it wasn’t faster.

    The Evo also had an amazingly driver-focused cockpit,  sublime feedback through the steering wheel,  and felt like a lithe ballerina through the corners by comparison to the Vette.  And while a Vette was faster than my Evo,  I would give the nod to the Vette only in very specific conditions:  a smooth,  dry track.  The Evo was more confidence-inspiring on real roads,  and in bad weather.

    The Vette irony is that most owners will never drive it in the one place it is truly superior to other cars: a track.
     

    • 0 avatar

      @Matt the C5 Z06 has a closer ratio transmission than the C6 you drove, so that’s not fair at all. And the regular C5/C6 is great as a street car because of the gearing’s effect on fuel economy, which I’m sure you noticed. As I have, seeing 30-32 MPG at 70 mph in a C5 coupe.
      But I do agree on the awful seats, as I’ve tracked a C5 at a DE event. And you forgot to mention the terrible run-flat tires.  Because they are pretty horrible.
      Nothing is perfect, but very few cars are faster than a Vette.  And NOTHING in the C5’s price range is faster in the straights/curves, etc unless the driver insists on using the throttle as an on/off switch.  Not that you do, just that I’ve seen that a fair bit. Actually, I’ve seen that a lot.


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