By on September 23, 2010

As someone who has driven over 300,000 non-livery, private-owner miles in various iterations of Ford’s Panther, TTAC’s Panther Appreciation Week struck a bittersweet chord for me. I’ve enjoyed seeing this versatile vehicle-from-another-era get the admiration and respect I believe it deserves, and the peek at the other side of the philosophical coin – courtesy of some Best & Brightest commentators (and Paul) – has also been interesting. But this tribute to the platform’s imminent demise has saddened me, as it highlights how the Panther has represented such a stoic constant on North American roads for so many years. Regardless, change is the only true constant, and it won’t be long before the pride of St. Thomas Assembly is irretrievably crushed by the ever-advancing juggernaut of modernity. Standing at the precipice of this retirement, I feel compelled to look at what the Panther has meant, both in my life, and in the market over these past three decades.

First off, full disclosure: At nine years old, I learned to drive in an ’81 Country Squire wagon, so it goes without saying that the big cat’s claws are forever embedded in my heart. From there, Panther proximity became less a sentimental thing and more an association of convenience: with a top Ford-Lincoln-Mercury salesman for a father, these cars were just always around. This made possible multiple Panther memories, including:

* Counting down the New Year in 1987 with eight members of my extended family in an ’85 Colony Park wagon after being rear-ended in traffic at 11:45 p.m.

* Reaching for an ’86 Crown Vic rear door handle after my first involuntary police car ride (for driving without a license) and realizing it wasn’t there

* Getting my first speeding ticket (83 in a 35) at 16 in a brown ’84 Grand Marquis

* Driving an old lady’s ‘85 Crown Vic like a maniac to an emergency animal hospital (to no avail)

* Arriving at my senior prom in a dark green ’89 Town Car that exactly matched my suit

* Buying my first non-Thunderbird – a white ’92 Crown Vic – and velcroing a big blue coffee cup to the dash so I’d look like a cop (much fun ensued)

* Being so impressed with the ’92 that I bought a ’95 Crown Vic

* Being so impressed with the ’95 that I purchased an ’01 Grand Marquis

* Riding in one of several hundred P71 Police Interceptors in my killed-in-the-line-of-duty cousin’s police funeral

* Watching my ’01 Grand Marquis hit 200,000 miles last week, knowing that it’s not unreasonable to expect 100,000 more

Throughout all of this, I had a ring-side seat to how Panthers performed in the market, courtesy of my dad’s occupation. From the “more luxurious/expensive/profitable-by-the-pound” successful early years, to the emergence of the “old person’s car” connotation, to the de-contented fleet stripper it ultimately became, watching this compromised-but-never-compromising, confounding-but-always-confident icon of mid-century American auto design outlast its market segment was as comforting as Rush Limbaugh is to a Republican.

It should be said, though, that some part of the Panther’s longevity stems from functional nostalgia – my current car seats six, pulls a trailer, swallows massive amounts of cargo, and regularly returns and honest-to-goodness 20 miles per gallon in mixed city/suburban/highway driving. Don’t even mention the ease of maintenance and lowest-on-earth cost/availability of replacement parts. Utility-wise, I’d put a used Marquis up against a comparably-pre-owned CUV any day of the week, and the Mercury would win on value every time (and cost several Grand less doing it).

Of course, the Panther platform has its (many) (glaring) faults, and if you point these out, I certainly won’t argue. I know the rear seat should be roomier and that the rear doors should open wider. I’m aware that making the car handle like a “modern automobile” is difficult and quickly becomes a nightmare of diminishing returns. And yes, to be a big, old-fashioned luxo-barge, it should ride better. Nevertheless, those that assail the Panther based on such observations miss the object of their objectivism: Supposing that the standards of automotive preference are truly standardized is just as fallacious as the fan-boy fanaticism that fuels these critics’ ire.

What I mean is that the things people love about their cars – and cars in general – is paradoxically different, and the same. To wit: the track-day superstar gives the same loving glance back at his Lotus after a day of hot-lapping as the gentle octogenarian does to his ’54 Oldsmobile after an evening reminiscing at the drive-in.

I think guys like Jay Leno have the right attitude. They celebrate automotive enthusiasm in multiple contexts, allowing for the fact that what is good in one context may not be in another. And no, that’s not relativism – good and bad both still exist in such a paradigm, more attention is just paid to what’s an apple and what’s an orange. Probably, the Panther would get a fairer shake from such a perspective than by being compared to current mass-market offerings like the Camry or the LaCrosse.

When automotive history looks back to situate the Panther, I hope it will be judged as a good car for its time, and one that kept delivering value – both to its manufacturer and to its owner – long after that time ended. But I know it will be remembered as one thing if nothing else: a survivor.

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55 Comments on “Panther Appreciation Week: Defining Panther Love...”


  • avatar
    86er

    Finally, a succinct and articulate analysis of why we love our cars.

  • avatar
    ajla

    my current car seats six, pulls a trailer, swallows massive amounts of cargo, and regularly returns and honest-to-goodness 20 miles per gallon in mixed city/suburban/highway driving.
     
    I know that they are rated for 2000lbs, but is that really all a newer Panther can safely tow?

    • 0 avatar
      86er

      The Watts-Link on the rear axle reduced the towing capacity in ’98, and the lawyers took care of the rest.

    • 0 avatar
      Wheeljack

      My suspicion is that the tow ratings were also understated as a means to move SUVs and trucks. I’m not sure the Watts linkage is really a detriment – recent Durangos have a Watts linkage arrangement and are rated to tow well over 7,000 lbs with the right options. 

    • 0 avatar
      Don Gammill

      My car’s 2.73:1 rear axle ratio really hurts the towing capacity, but the small 5′ X 8′ band equipment trailer, though heavily-loaded, doesn’t overwhelm the car by any means.  My ’95 Crown Vic’s 3.27:1 rear gear would have done a much better job, though.

  • avatar
    Mark MacInnis

    If you were caught doing 83 in a 35 mph zone, and all you got was a ticket, count your blessings in extremis, mate.  In most jurisdictions, that is prima facie “reckless driving”…and you are arrested and hauled away, and the vehicle impounded….not just ticketed.  Not challenging your veracity, but is that a typo?

    • 0 avatar
      ClutchCarGo

      Calculating from the other dates in his history, it seems that his speeding was done in the late 80′s, a much kinder and gentler era in regards to teenage hooning, especially if your dad was a well-known and respected member of the community. Also, I wouldn’t be suprised to hear that his dad impounded the vehicle once he found out.

    • 0 avatar
      Don Gammill

      Not a typo; it really happened.  The county had recently lowered the speed limit on that particular road from 45MPH to 35MPH (because of our new high school), and after a week or two, they sat up a speed trap at the entrance of a broad, sweeping curve which followed a quarter-mile-long straightaway.

      Speaking of the car, it belonged to the dealership where my dad worked (it was a wholesale piece from the back of the used lot).  I was driving it because my Thunderbird was in the shop at the time.  And of course you’re right about my dad not being happy.  Still, I kept right on driving; he merely made me pay the ticket and attend defensive driving school to clear my license of points.

      Unfortunately, I got another ticket on a different part of the same road three days later (but that’s another story entirely).

  • avatar
    jmo

    “lowest-on-earth cost/availability of replacement parts”

    2001 Camry A/C Compressor $249.90.  2001 Crown Victoria A/C Compressor $296.24.

    Do you mean new parts, re-manufactured parts, or parts from a junkyard?

    • 0 avatar
      Headroom Tommy

      If you drive a panther you don’t have to worry about the compressor for 25 years :p

      From what I’ve seen there is greater parity in part prices than before – the import parts have come down a fair bit.

      BUT there is still the small issue of front axles and struts vs $10 universals and shocks.

      Tommy

  • avatar
    Educator(of teachers)Dan

    A nice reflection from an actual owner who has experienced the platform in it’s various “generations.”
     
    BTW which one had the best overall combo of smooth ride and handling?  Is it worth it to seach for a Grand Marquis with the “Percision Trac” suspension?  I ask this as a potential buyer.

    • 0 avatar
      Don Gammill

      It’s debatable, Dan, but I’d say that the ’03 Town Car Signature Touring Edition was probably the best compromise of ride/handling overall.  Opinion differs dramatically on this, though.  A lot of people say the current P71 Police Interceptor offers the best combination, but they’re probably biased more toward handling.  My ’01 MGM is a “Precision-Trac” car, and though you can tell the stability difference with the Watts linkage over the pre-’98 cars, it’s really negligible.
       
      As far as extremes in either direction, I’d say that the early-to-mid-Nineties’ Town Cars were the smoothest, quietest riding of all, and, without a doubt, the ’03-’04 Mercury Marauder was the best handling (and best sounding).

  • avatar
    Jack Baruth

    Thank you Don! Hope to see your grill next to mine on the road some time.

  • avatar
    willbodine

    I am an unabashed fan of the Panthers particularly the Town Car. What i like is that Ford was able to significantly upgrade them (I think for the 03 model year) with a more rigid frame and rack and pinion steering. Never understood why they didn’t adapt the irs from the Expedition at the same time. Could have helped re-engineer the problematic fuel tank for the police versions. These are very roadable mile-eating haulers.  Power is not great but mileage is. They are quiet. If I buy one i will have all the bottom cushions re-padded with denser foam (front and rear). I must have a bony butt because I always feel I am sitting in a hole after a couple of hours. (Have rented scores of T/Cs.)
    I have never owned one but I am always looking for an 05-07 Signature L from a private seller.

    • 0 avatar
      Robert.Walter

      this upgrade was the so-called FN145 update to the then EN114/FN115 platform.  This involved extensive redesign of the front end of the vehicle to reduce weight and increase stiffness.  Want to see a trick piece of steering hardware (forget the gear)?  Look at the steering shaft for the “swing-link” joint … withn the Ford-world, this was created by Swiss-elves specifically for the above mentioned upgrade (although seen before in Mercedes, Jag, and some other vehicles)…

  • avatar
    friedclams

    Panther Week has given us some of the best posts ever on TTAC, including this one. I’m not a Panther fan but I’m almost sorry the week has to end.

    • 0 avatar
      gslippy

      Somehow, I’m just not understanding all the Panther love around here.  This theme is lost on me.  I can’t wait until it’s over.

    • 0 avatar
      James2

      @gslippy

      Me too. The only thing that comes to mind is a police car in the rearview mirror.

    • 0 avatar
      PartsUnknown

      gslippy, me three.  To me, a Crown Vic is a cramped taxicab with crappy plastics and an oxcart suspension.  Plus they seem…dull. 

      I will not ever begrudge anyone’s automotive passions though – I have a thing for Series Land Rovers and I don’t expect anyone else to understand.

  • avatar
    Conslaw

    All of this talk of panther love and police cars reminds me of a joke

    Two policemen are talking at the end of a shift

    Cop 1: Man, the sargeant is going to ream me good.  I had a high speed chase on a perp going and I ended up hitting a pedestrian, a tourist from Iceland.
    Cop 2: Reykjavik?
    Cop 1: Well, he dented the bumper a bit. 

  • avatar
    krhodes1

    I guess low-20′s mileage at best is great compared to 10-11 out of an Expedition, but I think you folks are living in a fantasy land. I managed to get all of 16mpg out of my last rental Grand Marquis, driving it no differently than what gets me 29-30mpg in my Saab 9-3. Actually driving it a lot slower than the Saab, as God knows there is no way in Hell a GM can even begin to keep up with a 9-3, unless it has a cop radio in it and a bunch of buddies waiting up the road. I can’t imagine why anyone would want to drive a land-barge with lousy seats for 300K miles. Unless there is some sub-species of human that those seats are actually intended for. Homo-midwesterncanus? Backs and butts shaped differently from Homo-coastalcanus?

    All you folks who seem to worship these tanks - have you ever actually DRIVEN a car that doesn’t drive like a throwback to the 60s? You really do get what you pay for.

    • 0 avatar
      jpcavanaugh

      Pretty big talk from somebody who bought a GM Saab. :)

    • 0 avatar
      Jack Baruth

      I average 20.5 mpg in the city, and 23.5 mpg on the highway, in my Town Car.
      I owned a 2000 Saab 9-3, bought new and driven for two years. I wouldn’t swap my Townie for a car hauler full of Saabs, but I respect your opinion.
      The Town Car currently sits next to my 911 and Boxster S in the driveway, but I think both of those are kind of throwbacks to the Sixties :)
       
       

    • 0 avatar
      Educator(of teachers)Dan

      I know the Town Car’s towing ablity has gone down but what a cool desktop wallpaper it would be if you had a pick of the Townie, hooked to a flatbed with one of the Porsches on it.

    • 0 avatar
      JeremyR

      jp, “GM” in the parent refers to “Grand Marquis”…

    • 0 avatar

      People in late model Saab 9-3s shouldn’t be casting stones.
      At least the Panther is the King of its domain, the 3-series of land yachts. And our 2006 easily gets 19mpg in Houston traffic.

    • 0 avatar
      krhodes1

      The 9-3 may not be perfect, but I look at it this way - it is 85% as good as a 3-series for 50% of the real world price. And in many ways, it is better – it has a dipstick, for example, and the cooling system is not made of silly-putty.

      At MSRP of ~$36K, my 9-3 SportCombi (2.0T 6spd stick) is a sad joke compared to a 328iT for $39K. But I paid $23.9K brand new, with 3-years free maintenance and a 100K warranty. Steal of the century. And about the finest medium-small FWD platform out there.

      As to the GM influence, there is nothing wrong with GM’s engineering talent, it’s just the bean counters that need to be taken out and beaten. Without GM’s billions, Saab would have died long ago, so I thank them for the contribution.

    • 0 avatar
      geeber

      There’s usually a good reason that a car is a “great deal” and is practically being given away by desperate dealers, and it’s not because it rides on one of the finest platforms in its class.

  • avatar
    jpcavanaugh

    Don, a wonderful ode to the Panther.    You make me realize how comforting this car is.  I remember in 1976 thinking how old the Valiant and Dart were – they were in their 10th year, ferkryinoutloud!  Who would have thought that the new Ford LTD/Mercury Marquis that came out as I started college in the fall of 1978 could still be available for purchase (in a broad sense) in my early 50s!  This is longevity.  A familiarity in a corner of the automotive landscape that those of us of a certain age are going to miss. 
    Just think – when this car came out, Jimmy Carter was president, disco was huge, and John Riccardo was president of Chrysler, which was still churing out cars with slant sixes and torsion bars.  These were the cars that were rumored to be on the verge of cancellation all through the early 80s.  But they stuck with us, and became perhaps the ultimate American cars, and among the best built and most reliable as well.
    There is one thing, however, that reminds me that all is not lost.  When the panther leaves us, there will still be a vehicle for sale that had already been out for 5 years in the fall of 1978  - LONG LIVE THE ECONOLINE!

  • avatar
    zbnutcase

    A sixties throwback is what its all about! And seats are easily changed. I am already having fantasy’s about a Coyote-powered Crown Vic!

  • avatar
    marauder_pilot

    I grew up in St. Thomas myself, and know dozens of people who work at the Panther plant. Most of my childhood friends had a parent or relative who worked there. If not there, they worked for Magna or Lear building parts for the Crown Vic plant. When that plant closes, St. Thomas will simply disappear-the biggest employers are, in order, Ford, Magna (Building frames for Panthers-other vehicles as well, but Panthers are a huge part) and Lear.
    I also grew up driving a Crown Vic. An old beige ’94 bought by my parents for $14,000 many years ago. I loved that thing. It was powerful enough to make me feel like I was getting in trouble, but handled well enough that I never got into any. I could tear it down the 401 at midnight and cars would just get out of the way. I could pack all my friends in there, with relative comfort. Or I could pack one ‘friend’ in there in extreme comfort, if you get my drift.
    That car lasted my family for years. When we moved from St. Thomas to Whitehorse, we drove that Crown Vic clear across Canada, carrying my family and towing a loaded trailer. Not so much as a hickup (And the trip was much more comfortable then when I did the same trip in my Jeep after I finished university-the University of Windsor, because I apparently have a magnetic attraction to cities torn asunder by the American car industry). When we got here, we drove it for 2 more years, well past 250,000 KMs. Finally we sold it for a song and a dance to a local taxi company startup so we could buy a truck.
    And that taxi company drove it for 2 more years after that! When I last rode in it, the odometer was closer to a half million KMs. Sadly, I don’t see it any more, so I suspect it’s finally gone to the Big Parking Lot in the Sky.
    I miss that car. I miss it so much that I’m actually tearing up a little bit as I write this. Seriously.
    But it’s OK-I’m going down to Vancouver later this winter, and I’m going to be on the look for a Panther of my very own. Maybe if I get lucky, I’ll find myself a nice Marauder in need of a good home, although an used black Interceptor would not go awry either.

    • 0 avatar
      86er

      Thank you for sharing this.

      If it’s any consolation to the workers at STAP, I think there will be an awful lot of overtime paid out before they close the doors for good.

    • 0 avatar
      marauder_pilot

      Oh, I have no doubt about Ford giving the workers a fair settlement. The plant’s closure has been a long time coming, and scores of people have already gotten great buyout packages. My best friend’s Dad worked first in the paint shop and then as a forklift driver there for ages, and got a hell of a settlement package (Enough to retire on) and enough credit to basically buy a brand new Explorer, not to mention the massive discount he’d gotten on the Volvo they bought a few years prior when they started the incentives.
      Still, it’ll be a sad day when St. Thomas assembly goes and the Panther is no more. Maybe because nobody likes the Taurus Interceptor, they’ll give it an 11th-hour stay of execution…

    • 0 avatar
      86er

      What I mean by overtime is that I predict they’ll be running the plant flat out, churning out a lot of fleet orders (and maybe the odd retail sale, who knows) before it’s all said and done.

  • avatar
    bomberpete

    The love for Panthers is here because it’s truly the last of its kind.

  • avatar
    revjasper

    The last time I went to the local pick-a-part, there was a local taxi in the Ford aisle.  I noticed the color first (bright green cab sloppy spray) then the grease pencil on the back window: “Auction, Runs, Tired”.  It was retired from the taxi fleet with 501K on the odometer, running but tired.
    Panther Appreciation Week has me browsing craigslist incessantly.  I can’t wait for it all to be over so I can just go back to browsing for TCs weekly, not hourly.

  • avatar
    Bill Owen

    You’ll love this if you are a panther fan.
    http://www.hulu.com/watch/179296/modern-family-the-old-wagon
    enjoy, Bill.

  • avatar
    phantomwolf

    I may love my Cadillac’s, I’m a masochist, but there will always be a special place in my heart for my old Crown Vic.  Is there anybody here who can honestly claim the Panther does not belong in the great pantheon of the most absurdly reliable and durable motor vehicles.  Due to their numbers, ready parts availability and ridiculous reliability I expect these to be the most numerous cars on the classic car circuit decades from now.  Long after many of the ricers have rotted away or made love to some tree on the side of the road at high speed, these creatures, like sharks, crocs, and roaches, will still be around.

  • avatar
    87 Morgan

    I bought an 86 CV wagon in college (I was broke) made payments on a $1200 note. 
    The ‘brady wagon’ as my then girlfriend, now wife, called it had 120k plus on the odo.
    I had the car for 2 years.  Put 40k on the odo, got in a small to medium wreck, kept driving it until graduation.  Sold it for $200.  Cost of repairs in 40k….zero: it had new tires when I bought it, I think at the time the new skins were the what closed the sale!
    Gas and insurance was my only expense.

    To date, those were most cost efficient 40k miles of any car I have ever owned.  Foreign or domestic.

  • avatar
    big_gms

    I completely understand all the love for the Panther. I have one of my own-2004 Grand Marquis LS, silver with light grey cloth interior and the optional performance suspension, which includes the high output engine with dual exhaust. I love it. The suspension setup firms up the ride quite a bit, but it handles amazingly well for a big car. The rack and pinion steering makes a world of difference too; I’ve driven Panthers with the old steering setup and it’s almost like driving a different car. Those who criticize the car for handling like a throwback to the ’60s obviously haven’t driven a recent one. It handles nothing at all like a ’60s-’70s big car (and I’ve driven some of those, too). Mine’s currently at 112,000 miles and I plan on driving for a long time to come. I actually want to hang on to it forever, if I can, and keep it as a classic someday.

  • avatar
    Dave M.

    29-30mpg in my Saab 9-3
     
    I can’t ever beat 24 mpg tank average in my ’04 convertible/6 spd. mixed city and highway.  What’s your secret?

  • avatar
    CopperCountry

    Excellent homage to a much-loved vehicle. It may not have ever been the ‘best’ at anything, but it’s certainly competent in many areas; the Swiss-Army-Knife of family sedans. A BOF beast that could take a whoopin’ at the hands of male teenage drivers (introducing them to joy of full-power drifting), which imprinted upon many of us the God-given, inherent ‘rightness’ of RWD (you don’t see deer with larger legs on the front, do you?)  

  • avatar
    IamZardoz

    Really nice article Don.  Sad to see them go but time marches on as they say.  I own two Panthers myself, an 09 Grand Marquis daily driver and an 04 Marauder.  I put $300 worth of Mustang Bullitt wheels off Craigslist on my GM and it gets plenty of looks around town.  Great car and it gets 27-28 mpg on the highway, fantastic for a big car.  My Marauder is my hotrod, drives totally different from the GM.  The all aluminium DOHC 4.6 isnt a torque monster but if you are going above say 40 and stomp the gas you had better hang on.  Same engine as the 01 Cobra Im told.  Anyway, Ive owned lots of other cars and really love my Panthers. 

  • avatar
    Larry P2

    I’m feeling the love ….
     
    So much so that last night I went out and test drove a ’92 Cartier edition Town Car. Just 129K miles, beautiful leather interior, ran and drove like a new one for $1,700. I could actually appreciate how wonderful it would be on long trips. But for me, not yet. Maybe in 10 more years, but not yet.

    • 0 avatar
      Educator(of teachers)Dan

      Now you know why my 55 year old father has as one of his goals to get his hands on a cream puff like that and only drive it on long trips.  Park it in his 2 car garage size shed and only fire it up for hwy/interstate driving.

      • 0 avatar
        jimbob457

        Funny you should mention your father’s fantasy. I am currently living that very dream. Not as good as dating a stripper, but much less trouble, esp. since I have children almost as old as your father.

        I found a ’99 Grand Marquis with 23,000 mi on the clock. Replaced all the rubber, filters and fluids (there was a lot of it). Added high end (but soft riding) tires, Bilstein shocks and Addco sway bars. The car ain’t so much around town, but it is heaven on the interstate. Recently drove 600+ miles in two days like falling off a log – and at my age. Got 25 MPG driving 75 up to 90 MPH all the way. Have the enormous sum of just under $8,000 USD invested in the whole package.

  • avatar
    Larry P2

    “get his hands on a cream puff like that and only drive it on long trips.” Yeah, but how’s he gonna stay awake? That was a disturbing idea that struck me as I was wafting down the interstate at 80, with no discernible evidence of motion, noise, or inputs from the road.

  • avatar
    Beta Blocker

    I drove a 2008 Town Car for a month in July 2008 when I was on assignment in the Southeast and discovered it was a great improvement over my parent’s 1978 Pontiac Catalina, the last similar car I had driven, roughly 30 years earlier.
    The handling was significantly better, the ride was more controlled, the ergonomics were better, visibility was better, and the 2008 had more power and better fuel economy.
    On the other hand, when it came time to buy a new car in 2010, it was a Mazda 6 that won the day.

  • avatar

    I get the Panther. Most countries have had or still have their own versions of it.

    Brazil had the Beetle from 1950 to 1986 (and it was revived for a few years in the 90s). The old Uno had made it, but much improved from 1986 till now. The Gol was essentially the same from 1983 totwo years ago when it received a major overhaul. But they’re all basic, simple easy to maintain, frugal cars.

    India has the Hindustan.

    Russia has the Lada Niva and Laika (a Fiat from the 60s).

    South Africa has or had until recently the first generation Golf.

    And it’s not just a 3rd world thing eithjer. How long did the Beetle last in Germany? The 2CV in France? The Topolino and 500 in Italy? Mini in Britain?

    They all share with the Panther, the longevity. And survived or still survive due to many of the same reasons. But for major, glaring discrepancy. Or two. Size and fuel economy. The likes of the Panther are rarer and rarer the poorer you get. It’s a testament to just how successful America has managed to be while the rest of the world just scrapped by.

    So, frm the POV of the rest of the world the Panther is either a symbol of greatness or wretched excess. Some geit and some don’t. Some just resent it. I say: Long live the Panther!

  • avatar
    Robert.Walter

    For a cool commercial (VW) that features the pretty taillights of a MGM in the closing seconds, see:  http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09/25/classic-ad-volkswagen-jetta/

  • avatar
    gahorneck

    Mercury should have kept making/developing the Marauder. I have the 2009 Fleet Ultimate which I have upgraded into a fine handling car. I have a video of the car upgraded. It now does 0-60 in 6.8 seconds and 1/4 in 15.5, and handles as well as it stops with upgraded brake pads.


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