By on October 23, 2009

We're still waiting ... (Picture courtesy coverbrowser.com)

If right-wingnut Glenn Beck needs a China hater on the tube, he usually calls Gordon G. Chang. Chang is always good for talking bad about China. In 2001, Gordon Chang published a book titled. “The Coming Collapse of China.” In it, he predicted that China would implode by 2006, if not earlier, due to the mass of non-performing loans in Chinese state banks. Much to the chagrin of Chang, China is still standing. It must give Chang heart palpitations that the Chinese economy grew more than three times since he penned his doomsday book. To add injury to irony, instead of a China syndrome caused by the meltdown of  Chinese banks, a non-performing global financing firm called Lehman Brothers started a chain reaction in 2008 that brought the world financial system to the brink of nuclear winter.

China ranks as the world’s third largest economy since it passed by Germany in 2007. China is likely to overtake Japan to become the world’s second largest economy, either this year or by 2010. In the world of Gordon Chang, all this growth must be as real as a Gucci bag at China’s notorious fake markets.

Today, Chang wrote a piece in Forbes, titled “China’s 8.9 Percent Growth? No Way.” In it, Chang puts Chinese growth statistics to task. A country that should have collapsed by 2006, if not earlier, simply is not entitled to 8.9 percent GDP growth, Chang decides.  And so, “it is unlikely that 3Q expansion was anywhere near the claimed 8.9 percent.” Chang thinks the number doesn’t jibe with other numbers. As a China expert, he should know that Chinese numbers never jibe, China simply can’t keep up with its 1.3b people, which most likely are 1.5b anyway. Chang could have simply claimed that the growth number is made up. But this would have made for a short column. And so Chang asks:” How can a country have robust consumer sales, nagging deflation and rapid monetary expansion all at the same time?” Chang comes to a simple, however unproven and unsourced explanation: “Vast quantities of consumer goods are now sitting in warehouses.”

And wait until Chang gets to car sales: “While optimistic analysts point to astounding car sales–up 70.5 percent in July, 94.7% in August and 83.6 percent in September,” Chang hears “yet unconfirmed” stories that “central government officials have ordered state enterprises to buy fleets of vehicles and that these businesses are storing them in parking lots across the country.” He can’t come up with proof for this assertion either. However, here is the smoking gun, Gordon Chang style: Gasoline sales are “up only 6.4% in August, for instance.” Chang is baffled: How can car sales go up 94.7 percent in August, when gasoline sales go only up by 6.4 percent?

We aren’t expecting Chang to come up with better numbers than the Chinese government. However, we can expect at least a baseline precision from the Forbes-brand capitalist tool.

China had some 168m motor vehicle registrations (all kinds that use gasoline) by the end of September of 2008. For the first nine months of the year, China’s vehicle sales increased 34.2 percent from some 7.2m sold in the first nine months of 2008 to 9.66m sold in the first nine months of this year. 9.66m additional cars on China’s streets, if we ignore the scrapping rate. China added 5.4 percent more cars to its car park. If gasoline consumption rose by “only 6.4 percent in August,” then that’s in line with the growth. I just got home from being stuck for two hours in murderous Beijing traffic. I can attest and certify that they do drive around a lot more than last year in a lot more cars than last year.

If his basic math skills are as bad as above, no wonder that Chang’s predictions never pan out. North Korea hasn’t attacked Japan either with nuclear rockets as predicted in Chang’s book “Nuclear Showdown.” And that’s a much simpler calculation than tracking cars.

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41 Comments on “Gordon G. Chang: China’s Car Sales Are a Fraud...”


  • avatar
    adonasetb

    We had pork bellies and a chicken in every pot before our unsustainable economy collapsed – remember the Dow hovering around 14,000? Never say never

  • avatar
    threeer

    I wish we (Americans) would get off of our collective asses, pay off the huge debt we owe to China (this should be seen as a HUGE embarrassment to the United States, and one of our largest security risks), and regain control of our nation, as well as standing in the world. Every day, all we are bombarded with is how great China is…and yet, I still wouldn’t touch one of their cars with a 10 foot pole. That Wal-Mart sells mostly Chinese made products is grating and must have ol’ Sam Walton turning in his grave.

    Sigh…Friday ranting…where has America gone??

  • avatar

    Living on borrowed time and borrowed money is unsustainable. China is just waking up and has a long way to grow. It is far from unsustainable.

    This place is growing so fast that even Google cannot keep up. A few days ago, I visited a factory in the middle of nowhere. I checked my GPS powered cell with Google maps. I felt like Livingstone in uncharted territory. According to Google, I was nowhere near civilization. However, we zipped down a brand new Autobahn-style 4 lane divided highway (uncharted) and ended in an (equally uncharted) industrial development zone that reached from horizon to horizon.

    China had its stock market bubble 2007 when the Shanghai index hit 6000, it dropped before all others to 2000 and is now in 3000 territory.

  • avatar
    don1967

    Cynicism about China’s growth is not unfounded.

    That 8.9% growth figure required an estimated US$1.86 trillion worth of combined government stimulus and new loans, which compares to China’s total nominal GDP of US$4.4 trillion. Does that sound like a healthy economy?

  • avatar
    wsn

    threeer :
    October 23rd, 2009 at 2:49 pm

    I wish we (Americans) would get off of our collective asses, pay off the huge debt we owe to China (this should be seen as a HUGE embarrassment to the United States, and one of our largest security risks)

    No. The risk of the loan is always on the lender’s shoulder, not on the borrower’s.

    The lender has a risk of not getting his money back.
    The borrower has an alternative of not paying his loan back.

    Unless the lender can put a gun to the face of the borrower’s face to have his money back. But that’s not the case here.

  • avatar
    rpol35

    This is a good and interesting analysis. I hope China suceeds in the near-term as we (the U.S.) need some shep to keep buying our ever increasing worthless paper. I have to agree with Threeer’s comments and I don’t consider myself to be an outrageous lugnut, but enough is enough, we do need to get our house in order and restore our sense of value in reference to not only ourselves but the rest of the world as well. Unfortunately, I see nothing on the horizon that will cause that to happen.

    I have no idea what will happen in China but unchecked, expotential growth can cause the foundation to completely collapse under the house as so to speak. If nothing else, their unbridled growth in automobiles coupled with their manufacturing capacity has to be causing smog and pollution unlike anything experienced here since the Industrial Revolution in the 19th century. As for auto growth, let China have at it, we have more here that we can manage and I think ultimately, it is not a good thing.

  • avatar
    wsn

    I think BS is too immersed in China to see the negative side.

    Even if this Gordon Chang guy is a broken clock that stays at 8′clock, it’s premature to say we will never see that time coming.

  • avatar
    Billy Bobb 2

    First sentence: How to lose your readership in five words or less.

  • avatar

    Glenn Beck is not a fool. The people who WATCH GLENN BECK ARE FOOLS. Glenn Beck makes millions of dollars a year – I refuse to call someone like that a fool. He’s a CONMAN and a TRAITOR to the American people.

  • avatar
    geeber

    Flashpoint: He’s a CONMAN and a TRAITOR to the American people.

    I don’t listen to the man, but I can’t help but notice how the scalps are piling up around him.

  • avatar
    Patapon

    Of course all that glitters is not gold, but it’s unreasonable to believe that China’s growth is a myth or a facade.

    China’s GDP may be fast-growing, but their GDP isn’t that high compared to most Western countries. Yet China’s running with the big dogs and you can’t talk about “global economy” without mentioning China in the same breath. So is a high growth rate for China really that difficult to believe?

  • avatar
    Bill Wade

    wsn :
    October 23rd, 2009 at 3:25 pm

    No. The risk of the loan is always on the lender’s shoulder, not on the borrower’s.

    The lender has a risk of not getting his money back.
    The borrower has an alternative of not paying his loan back.

    Unless the lender can put a gun to the face of the borrower’s face to have his money back. But that’s not the case here.

    I wouldn’t bet on that.

  • avatar
    morbo

    Two non-car related points for this post

    1> We have the guns and the food, both in excess. The only other country that had that was Soveit Russia, and even then for only a couple decades. So long as we have guns and food, we’ll be fine (we can always take what we don’t have / need / want, moral relativism notwithstanding).

    2> China has a huge demographic timebomb coming. That 40 years of the 1-child policy; Payback’s a bitch for China around 2035 (and Japan and Europe around 2025). America is blessed with ample immigration opportunities; as we need laborers we import them.

    That said, the next 10 – 15 years we will hear only how great China is, as China races to devise a way out of it’s demographic timebomb.

  • avatar
    Blue387

    Most US treasuries are actually owned by Americans with the Chinese and Japanese in second and third rank respectively.

    If you didn’t like the US borrowing from other countries, then you should be supporting tax increases to eliminate the deficit and pay back the debt. And tackle extraneous spending and live within our means.

  • avatar
    Mr Carpenter

    wsn “Unless the lender can put a gun to the face of the borrower’s face to have his money back. But that’s not the case here.”

    Of course it’s the possible case here, wsn.

    There are two nuclear options. One, is financial (as in writing off a portion of the $2 trillion US held by China and not bothering to buy any more US debt – something that is happening right now and which the Chinese are even quietly saying that is happening right now)

    And of course, the literal nuclear option. Or blackmail – as in “give us the deed to the state of Alaska and we’ll write off the $2 Trillion – or else” or some such thing.

    Naturally, the full fruition of either of these scenarios is not desirable by either party, and are relatively unlikely. But the first scenario is already happening, but of course, it might be a poker play, too.

    However, as someone else opined, never say never.

  • avatar
    Mr Carpenter

    So, flashpoint, where did the rant about Glenn Beck come from and what has that to do with China’s growth or lack thereof?

    Just curious.

    Seeing comments like yours reminds me that folks stuck in the left-right paradigm are like the audience at a magician’s show. Don’t look where the magician gestures for you to look – look at the real picture and you’ll see the illusion is just that.

    Politicians are pretty much puppets of unseen hands. Watch the money – that is the puppet strings.

    Perhaps the real question Americans and all people worldwide need to ask is this:

    Does the state belong to the people?

    Or do the people belong to the state (as in, propety)?

  • avatar
    mpresley

    What the Chinese, in general, have that we, in general have lost, is discipline. Discipline in both economic and personal terms. Also, unlike the US, and in spite of neoconservative propaganda to the contrary, China is not particularly aggressive–at least overtly. They subscribe to a brand of real-politik that favors China first and foremost, and they are not concerned with “spreading democracy” (or Socialism with Chinese Characteristics, in their case) in places that will never be democratic. Also, they have a good sense of who is strong and who is weak in the world.

    Anyone who has been to China knows they have many problems. That cannot be denied. But their ruling population is mostly homogenous, and they are not blinded by a “we are the world” liberalism that both the current Democrat party, and the past Republican subscribed to. They are transitioning from the Third World to industrial status, just as we are transitioning to Third World status.

  • avatar
    ronin

    Maybe we have forgotten the lesson of Japan in the 1980s. Japan was on a roll. It was buying up real estate all over Manhattan and the West Coast. It completely dominated Asia in terms of business power. It was variously predicted to soon surpass the US in terms of computer design, economy, financial strength. And car production. It was unstoppable and destined for greatness. It was a threat to our future American hegemony.

    And then in 1990 it all popped. The land in Japan which had been worth more than all the stars in the sky, collapsed. The market tumbled. Their financial strength diminshed. They have been in a severe recession for almost 20 years now.

    What we’re hearing now about the growth of China is eerily similar. It wasn’t clear at the time that Japan was a bubble.

    It’s much clearer now that China is a bubble. The question is will we destroy our own economy before that bubble bursts?

  • avatar
    NulloModo

    I’d be careful about putting too much stock in Chinese discipline. Whatever they may have had in the past was largely a product of neccessity and the ethos of the ruling political party. With the heavy hand and all-watching eye of the communist state fading into the background, and increasing wealth as well as exposure to western ideals and entertainment, the previous stoic resolve may fall by the wayside.

    Also, many people are ignoring China’s greatest problem – the growing disparity between the rising wealthy and middle classes and the urban rural poor. While the US certainly has a wealth divide, China has one that is 10x greater, and with a lot more people on the lower end. The infrastructure is not in place to support car ownership for the masses in China, nor for the construction of suburban homes or a lot of other niceties that those rising economically will want. China is headed straight for a class war on a scale the world has never seen before.

  • avatar
    Pch101

    where did the rant about Glenn Beck come from and what has that to do with China’s growth or lack thereof?

    The first sentence of this article was this: “If right-wingnut Glenn Beck needs a China hater on the tube, he usually calls Gordon G. Chang.”

    We need to be wary of “pundits” who serve a particular political agenda. Their data tends not to be trustworthy.

    I have no doubt that the PRC government fudges its economic data, but there’s no proof of it falling into the sea, either. Some folks make a career of being doomsday prophets, and the crap interviewers such as Beck will never call them on it when they’re wrong or look for alternative points of view. Getting your news from Fox is a great way to be misinformed.

  • avatar
    reclusive_in_nature

    ……or CNN, MSNBC, CBS, NBC, ABC, and even PBS. If you believe any one news source has a monopoly on the truth you’re a fool. Deciphering the news is just like watching a 3D movie. You’re going to need a red lens and a blue lens to “get it” in it’s entirety.

  • avatar
    John Horner

    Chang is an idiot who makes up his facts to fit his preconceived ideas. No wonder he is a favorite of Glenn Beck’s.

    People keep making the mistake of thinking that money is some real hard object and that it must obey certain voodoo rules. Money, like the corporation and intellectual property, is an invention of mankind made up entirely out of thin air for the convenience of a functioning social system.

    “That 8.9% growth figure required an estimated US$1.86 trillion worth of combined government stimulus and new loans, which compares to China’s total nominal GDP of US$4.4 trillion. Does that sound like a healthy economy?”

    Yes, it actually does. As long as the real economic activity is growing fast enough to put all that newly created money to productive use there is no problem with a government creating a bunch of money and pumping it into the economy. Government has a unique role in the monetary system and die hard monetary conservatives don’t understand that fact. Inflation only happens when the underlying activity doesn’t grow as fast as the money supply does. China is building roads, factories, homes and consumer goods at a break neck pace. It has around 1.5 billion people, the majority of which want nothing more than to acquire the material goods typical of a modern industrial economy. China will inevitably grow to be by far the world’s largest economy and is going to have to print massive quantities of money to do so. They have the people, the willpower and the know-how support of the industrialized world to get it done.

  • avatar
    dilbert

    Just like Michael Steele, this clown is the token “insert ethnicity here” and a tool of their puppet masters.

  • avatar

    The Crankery is very strong in this thread. I’d rather worry about Messicans and crazed Cubans taking all our good jobs and hiding them under the bed.

  • avatar
    mpresley

    NulloModo : I’d be careful about putting too much stock in Chinese discipline…

    I’ve not encountered the kind of undisciplined behavior and thinking among the adult population or CCP leaders (with the exception of the sometimes common but severely punished graft) that is prevalent among Western liberals. One measure is the savings rate. If you compare Chinese personal savings with that in the US you’ll know what I mean. Obviously, with the younger generation, it’s too soon to say. Too, some people in the West have a misconception about Chinese socialism. It is not a welfare state in the sense of the European and American model. The idea that the government, through handouts, should protect the family, or the individual from bad times and from “cradle to grave” is not part of the Chinese view.

    Also, many people are ignoring China’s greatest problem – the growing disparity between the rising wealthy and middle classes and the urban rural poor. … China is headed straight for a class war on a scale the world has never seen before.

    Poverty in the US is mostly eradicated, but now only relative. Against this, the recent history of China has revealed true poverty and famine. Those growing up during the Great Leap Forward and, to a lesser extent, the Cultural Revolution, are not the current generation. Whether what you describe happens likely depends upon the Party’s ability to “solve” (as if government can truly solve these things), i.e., manage, economic growth in a way where true poverty is eradicated. But, no civilization or government ever lasts.

    In the “poor” rural provinces, the traditional form of familial support was always the extended family. Now, often times youth (mainly women) wind up in working in large city factories along the coastal regions, saving to send $ home to less mobile family. When holidays arrive, factories shut and large cities (for instance, Shenzhen and Guaugzhou) empty as everyone finds a train ticket to their home town. I personally question the revolutionary zeal of Chinese country folk, but what do I know about the future?

  • avatar
    happy-cynic

    To have some “expert” go off and simplify stuff is a fraud. I am very interested in Asian culture. I also work with several folks from the far east.

    The China, US relationship has many angles to it.

    True the US has a lot of IOU’s, but China needs the US market.
    The Chinese currency is kept low on purpose, so as to keep the Wal-mart shoppers coming back for more. The big question is:
    When China no longer needs the US market? then what

    They have been quietly modernizing the armed forces. Making deals with oil producing nations. They play a big role in the Korea situation. In short China is a world power, but downplays itself as such.

    The nation has some big issues looming. (as brought out by other comments) Such as pollution, graft, the infrastructure is questionable. (can it hold up over time, and earthquakes)
    Remember folks, it is still a one party state. (and a strong and inflexible to boot). Other emerging nations such as India and Brazil. How will China deal with them as an economic competitor?

    Meanwhile the US economy has been damaged by the endless quest for short term profits,Yuppie lifesyle, spending money that you don’t have. Me first and #%@@ the other guy. Example if a company can save some money by moving shop oversees, true more profits are at hand, however at some point, there will be a smaller pool of consumers, and tax payers. What do you do now?. The current trend does not look good.

  • avatar
    Johnny Canada

    Damn. If it wasn’t for that right-wingnut Glenn Beck, patriotic Americans like Van Jones and the employees at Acorn could continue their essential work.

  • avatar
    Matt51

    I have read that if 1/4 of China’s population were dedicated to manufacturing, China could supply all of the world’s manufactured products. There will be no economic collapse in China, but at some point, growth will slow. China is a major world power, and will be so for many years to come. In fifty years, China may be the world’s sole superpower.

  • avatar
    Autosavant

    I have not checked Chang’s claims thoroughly, nor do I believe he is a worthy investment of my time. He sounds too much like the Peak Oil Charlatans (the serially failed ones that gloom and doom TV idiots keep inviting while never holding them accountable for their ludicrous and utterly failed predictions).

    The similarity lies in the lack of info, both about the true oil reserves of major Opec Nations (and If I was in their shoes, I would certainly ALSO treat as TOP State Secrets!), and the true situation in China’s economy and State banks. Lacking perfect info, the charlatans speculate.

  • avatar
    threeer

    @blue:

    If you didn’t like the US borrowing from other countries, then you should be supporting tax increases to eliminate the deficit and pay back the debt. And tackle extraneous spending and live within our means.

    I would gladly pay more in taxes (if our politicians had the guts, foresight and vision, that is) to pay off the deficit. Personally, I do live BELOW my means. My car is a 13 year old vehicle, my house is a very, very modest TH. I just think that our country should not be “owned” by any other country. Period. It’s a disgrace to our nation and yes, I still believe it is a huge security risk. We’ve borrowed our collective souls to the hilt, and we’re paying for it. But the majority of our good folks here in America will, more than likely, go back to their old ways of spend, spend, spend once the economy shows any signs of improving. We are, sadly, very shortsighted these days. But I guess there isn’t a real revolution anywhere in sight to regain the standing we once had, and that is a true shame.

  • avatar
    BDB

    If you want to see how wealthy a country truly is, a much better measure is GDP PPP per capita. It corrects for population. Countries that have more people are going to have “bigger” economies even if they are less wealthy.

    The United States is #6 ($47,440), the only countries being higher than it are some postage stamp Euro banking nations, various oil sheikhdoms, and Norway (which is just a Scandinavian version of an oil Sheikhdom.

    Germany is # 21 ($35,539).

    Japan is #24 ($34,116).

    China is down at #100 ($5,970), above Egypt but below Angola. That’s what happens when you have a billion people–you can have a very large economy and still be poor. Or, when you’re Qatar (#1, nearly DOUBLE the USA) you can have an extremely small economy and still be wealthy as hell.

    There are the urban areas, but even if you compare apples to apples and look a the per capita GDP of urban areas, five of the top ten are North American and the rest are Japanese and Eurozone. The highest (nominally) Chinese city is Hong Kong@ # 14. Next? Shanghai at #32, below Rio.

  • avatar
    BDB

    They have been quietly modernizing the armed forces.

    O RLY?

    http://www.www.eons.com/images/members/2009/7/12/0/4/04247374217064531696_610w.jpeg

    Lemme know when they’re even half of what Europe spends on their military.

  • avatar
    mattstairs

    morbo,

    You raise a good point about the demographics. I read an article in the last year or so that basically said China was trying to get rich before they get old.

    Bertel, is there any talk in China about these demographic issues?

  • avatar
    Autosavant

    “BDB :
    October 24th, 2009 at 12:49 pm

    If you want to see how wealthy a country truly is, a much better measure is GDP PPP per capita. It corrects for population.”

    Only the “per capita” part, NOT the “PPP” part, corrects for population. The “PPP” part means “Purchasign power Parity” and takes into account how much stuff you can buy with $1. In china, $1 can go roughly six TIMES as far as i n the US and ten times as far as Europe or Japan.

    SO PPP makes the Chinese econ look bigger and the Euros and the Japanese look smaller.

    Neither the simple per capita income nor the PPP are satisfactory, for obvious reasons, and one needs to give both to get an idea of what really is going on.

  • avatar
    BDB

    Point is, autosavant, either is a much better indicator for how wealthy a country is than just pure size of the GDP.

    Nobody could say with a straight face that the average American has more wealth and a higher standard of living than the average Qatari even though our GDP dwarfs theirs. But per capita, either measure really, shows a much more accurate picture.

  • avatar
    Autosavant

    “Author: BDB
    Comment:
    Point is, autosavant, either is a much better indicator for how wealthy a country is than just pure size of the GDP.”

    No, each is an indicator (imperfect for both) of how wealthy the AVERAGE Citizen of each country is. In yemen,, the total GDP MAY be 10 Billion $ but the sheikh MAy own $9 billion of it, and all the resat barefoot and pregnant subjects collectively own the 10% that remains.

    “Nobody could say with a straight face that the average American has more wealth and a higher standard of living than the average Qatari even though our GDP dwarfs theirs.”

    Are you saying all this to make the extremely obvious point that you goto to divide the GDP by the population]????? Nobody onbjected to this, of course. BUT you are still missing, I believe, that to really understand HOW FAR each dollar per capita goes, you need to do the ADJUSTMENT called “PPP”.

    ” But per capita, either measure really, shows a much more accurate picture.”

    I am not sure you understand the differences between the regular PER CAPIta GDP and the ADJUSTED per capita GDP for PPP.

  • avatar
    Huaxia

    Maybe we have forgotten the lesson of Japan in the 1980s. Japan was on a roll.

    China is not Japan. China has 10x the population, 30x the land, and 100x the natural resources. China also has a diaspora that, if measured, would have the third highest net wealth in the world and the fourth highest GDP after Japan.

    They have been in a severe recession for almost 20 years now.

    Their production has declined primarily because of population decrease. If you count GDP by workers, *and* include illegals in the population as you should, their GDP per worker is close to America’s. Even with their bubble, the average Japanese man, woman and child is worth $200,000 USD- the highest in the world in dollar denominated terms. If you subtract liabilities, the gap between Japan and Western economies grows even larger.

    but China needs the US market.

    China never needed the US market and never will. Cheap exports to the US account for 2-3% of GDP and even a lesser share of employment.

    China benefits from the US-China relationship because the US invests a significant amount (not nearly as much as East Asians do, but still noteworthy) and there is some degree of technological transfer.

    But China certainly does not -need- the US. Rather I think they just don’t see any potential gain from hurting the US, because even a minor benefit is still a benefit.

    emerging nations such as India and Brazil. How will China deal with them as an economic competitor?

    India suffers from poverty, lack of sanitation, illiteracy, religious, racial, caste and cultural conflicts, is more corrupt than China, has poor GDP growth, extreme malnutrition and awful infrastructure. It really is in no shape to compete with anyone until these issues are out of the way.

    The United States is #6 ($47,440)

    The highest (nominally) Chinese city is Hong Kong@ # 14. Next?

    If you count illegal immigrants (11.5 million), who are included in America’s GDP calculations (as they are part of production) America actually has a GDP of $45,000 per capita. Still high.

    Lastly Hong Kong does not have a huge GDP, but they’re bankers and investors- 26% of Hong Kong households are dollar denominated millionaires (which buys them $1,300,000 or more worth of equivalent goods you’d get in the states). The net worth per capita of every Hong Kong man, woman and child in 2006 was 186,000 on a PPP basis. They were not hit so hard by the subprime crisis as their housing bubble had already passed earlier.

    Lastly if you count their liabilities (they have almost none) America is closer to $120,000ish in 2009 vs. Hong Kong’s $250,000 per capita.

    I wouldn’t go by GDP alone, it means next to nothing when you’re talking about wealth.

  • avatar
    BDB

    Autosavant, when you see a sign outside McDonalds that says “Big Mac” do you run into the store, get angry, and accuse the manager of grinding a tall Scottish man’s flesh to make a burger patty?

    Huaxia, if my Aunt had a beard and a certain appendage, she would be my Uncle.

  • avatar
    BDB

    And of course we all know Hong Kong doesn’t have any illegal immigrants.

    No sir. None at all.

    Ha. Ahahaha. Ahahahhaha. ahahahahahahhahahah!

    (they do! a lot.)

  • avatar
    Mark MacInnis

    @wsn

    “Unless the lender can put a gun to the face of the borrower’s face to have his money back. But that’s not the case here.”

    Perhaps not. But it will be interesting in, say 2012 (if not before), when China makes its penultimate move on Taiwan.

    Anyone fancy a wager on the “level of commitment” of the US to “protecting Taiwan’s freedom”….after years of China propping up the US economy by buying our worthless paper?

    Hard to fathom the Chinese allowing us to point a weapon at them that THEY ARE PAYING FOR….

    So, down goes Taiwan….and Buick sales for that matter.

  • avatar
    Tosh

    Sniff…choke…I’m just so proud of TTAC that a rational discussion could spring forth based on what a neo-con right-wing fear- and hate-mongering entertainment show host and guest said on some propaganda network….snort….I love you guys…..bwaaaa….!


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