By on September 22, 2009
Date: 09/21/2009 Ref. number: Service /  Warranty /
Subject: Changes to the General Motors 100,000 Mile/5 Year Powertrain Warranty for 2010 Model Year Vehicles –

GM Service Operations

**Urgent Message**

DCS 412

DATE: September 21, 2009

TO: All US GM Dealers, Service Directors, Warranty Administrators and Parts Managers

SUBJECT: Changes to the General Motors 100,000 Mile/5 Year Powertrain Warranty for 2010 Model Year Vehicles

This message is to provide information regarding the a few changes to the GM Powertrain Warranty for 2010 model year vehicles.  Previous model year vehicles are NOT affected by these changes.

For model year 2010, General Motors is announcing a slight change in the components that are covered under the 100,000 mile/5 year limited warranty on all light duty cars and trucks.  The Warranty and Owner Assistance Information booklets have already been updated with these changes in all New 2010 model GM vehicles.

The following items have been eliminated from the Powertrain portion of the coverage for 2010, however, they will continue to be covered for the entire length of the Bumper to Bumper Limited Warranty for all GM vehicles.  Select components may also be covered by Federal or State Emission coverage.  Please refer to the Labor Time Guide and Policies and Procedures (P&P) manual for further details.

1)  The entire pressurized fuel system (in-tank fuel pump, lines, fuel rail, injectors and return line.

2)  The Engine/Powertrain Control Module (ECM/PCM) and module programming.

3)  The Transmission Control Module (TCM), Transfer Case Control Module and module programming.

4)  The Throttle Body Assembly.

5)  Clutch and Pressure Plate for Manual Transmission.

6)  Sealed Wheel Bearing Assemblies or Hub and Bearing Assemblies (axle shafts, seals and bearings that are part of

complete axle housings are still covered).

The following items have been added to the Powertrain portion of the coverage for 2010.

1)  Engine oiling system including the hoses, lines and cooler.

2)  Crankshaft Pulley.

3)  Clutch Master Cylinder.

The GMVIS (GM Vehicle Inquiry System) and the new Global Warranty Management Investigate Vehicle History screen allows you to identify this new warranty by the abbreviated description under the Applicable Warranties section.  The word warranty at the end of the description is abbreviated “WTY”.  Previous 100,000 mile/5 Year Warranties have the entire word spelled out.

60/100,000 Powertrain Coverage Limited WTY (2010 Model Year example)

Subsequent communications will address other programs that may be coordinated with the New Vehicle Limited Warranty on our vehicles.

The attached wording is what is outlined in all 2010 Warranty and Owner Assistance Information booklets for all GM vehicles.

Engine Coverage Includes: All internally lubricated parts, engine oil cooling hoses, lines and radiators.  Also included are all actuators and electrical components internal to the engine (i.e.: Active Fuel Management Valve Lifter Oil Manifold, etc.) as well as the Engine/Powertrain Control Module, module programming, cylinder head, block, timing gears, timing chain, timing cover, oil pump/oil pump housing, OHC carriers, valve covers, oil pan, seals, gaskets, manifolds, flywheel, water pump, harmonic balancer, engine mount, starter motor, turbocharger and supercharger.  Timing belts are covered until the first scheduled maintenance interval.

Exclusions:  Excluded from the powertrain coverage are sensors, wiring, connectors, engine radiator, coolant hoses, fans, coolant and heater core.  Coverage on the engine cooling system begins at the inlet to the water pump and ends with the thermostat housing and/or outlet that attaches to the return hose.  Also excluded is the entire pressurized fuel system (in-tank fuel pump, pressure lines, fuel rail(s), regulator, injectors and return line) as well as the Engine/Powertrain Control Module and/or module programming.

Transmission/Transaxle Coverage Includes: All internally lubricated parts, case, torque converter, mounts, seals and gaskets as well as any electrical components internal to the transmission/transaxle.  Also covered are any actuators directly connected to the transmission (Slave cylinder, etc.).

Exclusions: Excluded from the powertrain coverage are transmission cooling lines, hoses, radiator, sensors, wiring and electrical connectors.  Also excluded are the clutch and pressure plate as well as any Transmission Control Module and/or module programming.

The Transfer Case Coverage Includes: All internally lubricated parts, case, mounts, seals and gaskets as well as any electrical components internal to the transfer case.  Also covered are any actuators directly connected to the transfer case as well as encoder motor.

Exclusions: Excluded from the powertrain coverage are transfer case cooling lines, hoses, radiator, sensors, wiring, electrical connectors as well as the transfer case control module and/or module programming.

The Drive Systems Coverage Includes: All internally lubricated parts, final drive housings, axle shafts and bearings, constant velocity joints, propeller shafts, universal joints.  All mounts, supports, seals, gaskets as well as any electrical components internal to the drive axle.  Also covered are any actuators directly connected to the drive axle (i.e.: front differential actuator, etc).

Exclusions: Excluded from the powertrain coverage are all wheel bearings, drive wheel front and rear hub bearings, locking hubs,drive system cooling, lines, hoses, radiator, sensors, wiring and electrical connectors related to drive systems as well as any drive system control module and/or module programming.

Courtesy Transportation Program

During the 100,000 mile/5 year warranty coverage period, alternate transportation and/or reimbursement of certain transportation expenses will be available under the Courtesy Transportation Program if your vehicle requires warranty repairs. Several transportation options are available. Refer to the Owners Manual for details,

What Is Not Covered

All the above items are not covered for damage due to accident, misuse, alteration, insufficient or improper maintenance, contaminated or poor quality fuel. Medium Duty trucks, including the C4500, are excluded from this powertrain coverage. For complete details refer to your Warranty and Owner Assistance Information Booklet.

Roadside Assistance Program

General Motors is proud to offer the response, security, and convenience of the 24-hour Roadside Assistance Program for a period of 100,000 miles/5 years, whichever comes first.  Refer to your Owner Manual for details, or consult your dealer/retailer. The Roadside Assistance contact information is listed in the Customer Assistance Offices section of the Warranty and Owner Assistance Information booklet.

Goodwill Adjustments on Powertrain Items

Based on the addition of the New 100,000 Mile/5 Year Powertrain Warranty, GM would expect that very few powertrain repairs would be considered for Goodwill adjustments outside the 100,000 Mile/5 Year Powertain Warranty period.  We ask that dealers continue to analyze goodwill decisions on a case by case basis and recognize that time and mileage are always a factor.  Total Goodwill dollars spent will continue to be communicated to all GM dealers as a memo item at the bottom of the GM Dealer Analysis (DA) report.  This will allow dealership service mangers to manage the expense and involve their District Service Manager when necessary.

The following labor operations make up the entire list that is included in the New 2010 Powertrain coverage.  The Coverage Code section of the labor Time Guide will be updated with this information in the November 2009 release.

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82 Comments on “GM Downsizes 100,000 Mile/5 Year Warranty...”


  • avatar
    slateslate

    for the average person the changes statistically are probably a wash.

    however this doesn’t help that pesky non-existent perception gap.

  • avatar
    panzerfaust

    That explains why the GM quality badge was removed.

  • avatar
    jmo

    2) The Engine/Powertrain Control Module (ECM/PCM) and module programming.

    3) The Transmission Control Module (TCM), Transfer Case Control Module and module programming.

    Hum….now why would they do that?

  • avatar
    jpcavanaugh

    There are gonna be a lot of people sorry that they did not return it in 60 days. Why would GM think that you make more satisfied customers by acting like a bad HMO?

  • avatar
    ClutchCarGo

    Attn: Robert Lutz
    Re: Perception gap

    It does not take much on the part of the car-buying public to perceive the gap between the Hyundai warranty and the GM warranty, and all of your bluster and gamemanship will not cover over THAT gap.

  • avatar
    psarhjinian

    It does not take much on the part of the car-buying public to perceive the gap between the Hyundai warranty and the GM warranty, and all of your bluster and gamemanship will not cover over THAT gap.

    +1

    People have been hammering on this for a while. If GM wants to fix it’s perception problem, it needs concrete plans that people can bank on. Hyundai increased it’s coverage to ten years. Ford put serious money into quality and revamped it’s warranty-claims process. Both brands are garnering customers and moving up the quality rankings.

    GM… has harped on about a perception gap and making hay about the quality rankings of a Buick sedan that they no longer make.

    You want to change the perception gap? Change people’s perceptions. That’s basic marketing, and something an erstwhile VP of Marketing should know about.

  • avatar
    gslippy

    Good thing the crankshaft pulley is covered; you never know when that might fail.

    The clutch and pressure plate for manual transmissions should be removed, as they have done. Must have been an oversight to include such a wear item in the first place.

  • avatar

    Excluded from the powertrain coverage are sensors, wiring, connectors, engine radiator, coolant hoses, fans, coolant and heater core. Also excluded is the entire pressurized fuel system (in-tank fuel pump, pressure lines, fuel rail(s), regulator, injectors and return line) as well as the Engine/Powertrain Control Module and/or module programming.

    That’s quite reassuring. All the expensive stuff (parts or labor) aren’t part of the warranty. And is it saying that normal ECU software upgrades aren’t covered under this warranty?

    So what’s the fine print on Hyundai’s 10 year/100k warranty? Is it as poorly conceived as GMs???

  • avatar
    npbheights

    If they really wanted to save money they would just eliminate the warranty all together. Everyone knows that GM cars will last atleast 100K miles without any problems.

  • avatar
    CanadaCarMark

    Too ‘wordy’ for a layman to understand although some components removed seem to be major. Really what’s important is how this compares to a Kia, Hyundia, Honda, or Toyota warranty. Can anyone say that these components are or are not covered?

  • avatar
    thanh_n

    At least we know they do not stand behind their products. So the timing belt is only covered for the first 6-7k miles?

  • avatar
    BDB

    So what’s the fine print on Hyundai’s 10 year/100k warranty?

    It’s non-transferable.

  • avatar

    BDB : Hyundai has exclusions on their powertrain items too…check it:

    10 YEAR / 100,000 MILES POWERTRAIN PROTECTION Covers most engine & transaxle components. Covers repair or replacement of powertrain components (i.e. selected Engine and Transmission/Transaxle components), originally manufactured or installed by Hyundai that are defective in material or factory workmanship, under normal use and maintenance.

    I want to know those “selected Engine and Transmission/Transaxle components” for sure.

  • avatar
    Deepsouth

    GM downsizes the warranty. ” May the best car win.”

  • avatar
    Gardiner Westbound

    General Motors is moving in the wrong direction to persuade me, a previous multiple GM customer, to buy another.

    Domestic cars dominate Consumer Reports’ annual worst of the worst list. Every long-term reliability, durability and warranty repair survey confirms they are markedly inferior to their class leading competitors. Since 2005, GM’s Canadian market share has slid to 12.1-percent from 23.1-percent. In 2000, it held more than 27-percent.

    Most Asian manufacturers embrace kaizen, Japanese for continuous improvement. If something doesn’t work they respond reasonably promptly with corrective measures and extended warranties. The domestic carmakers not. If something doesn’t work they ignore it. If it does work they cheapen it until it doesn’t work anymore.

    This is not the confidence builder GM urgently requires.

  • avatar
    BDB

    Also, this sounds more like tweaking than “downsizing” to me. Seems like a wash.

    And while not as good as Hyundai’s, GM warranty is longer than the one Toyota and Honda gives you.

  • avatar


    2) The Engine/Powertrain Control Module (ECM/PCM) and module programming.

    3) The Transmission Control Module (TCM), Transfer Case Control Module and module programming.

    Hum….now why would they do that?

    Because they can argue that the control modules are part of the electrical system, not the drivetrain.

    Obviously, fuel injection and control electronics are expensive to replace so I’m sure there’s some cost savings expectations here.

    Before bashing GM, it’d be interesting to see if other manufacturers consider FI and ECUs to be part of the drivetrain warranty.

  • avatar
    BDB

    If something doesn’t work they respond reasonably promptly with corrective measures.

    Eight years for Honda to own up to shrapnel-filled airbags. Eight years.

    And Toyota still won’t talk about the paint flaking problem of the Scion tC.

  • avatar
    holydonut

    Re: slateslate … the fuel system is actually a costly item since the fuel rail, injectors, and pump are easily damaged. Back in that post about the fuel additives, I commented that accidentally running out of gas can severely damage your fuel system – which is why your fuel light comes on when you actually still have many miles of fuel remaining. Of course, no customer ever admits to running out of gas when they bring their car in for repair – so it’s a warranty item. It’s reasonable GM to strip out fuel-system issues from this warranty since they are actually a major cost item during a warranty period… but obviously the motive from the customer’s perspective is suspect.

    Regarding the ECM and TCM programming – so many people flash their computers with aftermarket items that it’s also wise for them to refuse covering those issues. Go check the internet for Diablo Tuners and the like… you’ll be surprised what people try to do to their cars with tweaks to the ECM / TCM programming.

    Some customers tend to bring the bad things on themselves. Some people race their Evos in autocrosses and track days… and then they want warranty coverage to repair their their vehicles. I doubt issues would manifest themselves as business problems if people would just own up to their shenanigans.

  • avatar
    alfred p. sloan

    The difference between Hyundai’s warranty and GM’s? Oh, About 5 years.

    Hell what am I saying, I’m 31 years old, GM has never made a car I would have wanted anyway. (Corvette… doesn’t count)

    all thosw W-Body cars.
    The J Cars
    the rattle prone F-Cars
    the bloated LeSabres
    the Celebrity
    the caprice
    the grand Am

    I could go on about the crap GM has foisted on us but the simple fact is I own Honda’s because they start everyday and I don’t worry about whether I should take it out of town. GM lost me as a customer oh, 31 years ago. No improvement in warranty coverage makes up for 30 years of inferior product.

  • avatar
    LennyZ

    Restart the Death Watch!

  • avatar
    BDB

    Hell what am I saying, I’m 31 years old, GM has never made a car I would have wanted anyway.

    You wouldn’t want to drive a CTS-V? Really?

    How about a Malibu? “Never” is a very broad term, even when you exclude the Corvette.

  • avatar
    gohorns

    Not a mechanic and I cant make heads or tails of this being better or worse technically speaking. From a business point of view however I can make a judgement. Dumb. For the millionth time..no gimmicks..no lawyer print bring out a knock your socks off warrenty to PROVE these are the best made. Fine print and folksy buy USA non sense doesnt work. Build the best vehicle, price it better then offer a warrenty that shuts everyone up. Tada you win or you can keep arranging the deck chairs on the titanic.

  • avatar
    highrpm

    See, now this is why nobody will buy your cars, GM. The same old advertising promise of a great warranty with a bunch of asterisks after it, saying that the expensive parts aren’t covered.

    The sad thing is that even if you offered a real 10/100 warranty with all parts covered, you’d have to work hard to actually convince folks that it’s not another GM B.S. warranty where most parts aren’t covered. That’s the real perception gap – folks think so low of you guys that they take everything you say with a grain of salt.

    If the cars were as good as you say they are, you would offer a no-hold-barred 10/100 warranty. The fact that you don’t offer one tells me that you don’t believe in your product.

  • avatar
    alfred p. sloan

    “You wouldn’t want to drive a CTS-V? Really?

    How about a Malibu? “Never” is a very broad term, even when you exclude the Corvette.”

    BDB :
    September 22nd, 2009 at 3:16 pm

    Fair enough, GM made a CTS i might like,the “V” but it doesn’t make a CTS i would want over a BMW of a simmilar price.

    It’s not that GM hasn’t made compelling cars, it’s that they haven’t made good cars.

  • avatar

    The Hyundai / Kia warranty has many exclusions that other warranties do not. A few participants in TrueDelta’s Car Reliability Survey have reported that 5/60 warranty coverage was denied on items that just about any other manufacturer would have covered under their basic warranty.

    That said, GM has removed the most likely to fail within 5/100 bits from its coverage here. Fuel systems and wheel bearings are much more likely to fail than parts internal to the engine and transmission.

    Do the powertrain warranties at Ford, Honda, and Toyota include these parts? Worth a look.

  • avatar

    holydonut,

    The number of people who mod their programming is not significant, and these people are unlikely to want GM’s settings returned. The number of GM owners who’ve had to reflash their transmission controls multiple times to try to fix shifting issues…far more significant.

    Note to GM: TrueDelta doesn’t count free reflashes as repairs in our stats. We do count those that the customer has to pay for.

  • avatar
    ponchoman49

    More of the same old GM showing through. They probably had a high rate of ECM and BCM failures along with fuel pumps and wheel bearings so those were eliminated to save $$$. This is GM we are talking about here. They have had over 10 years to correct there enternal intermediate steering shaft issues and here we are in 2009 with Impalas, LaCrosses and Malibus that are still affected. My 2008 Impala’s shaft sounds like the front end is coming apart when I make a left turn and accelerate. Haven’t had it in yet but the car now has over 50K on the clock so I’m probably screwed.

  • avatar
    rpiotr01

    Holydonut: Then why not just have a complete void for people who flash their computers with aftermarket stuff? There are always going to be those folks out there and if they want to take a risk like that then they should pay the cost.

    What this move does is punish people who did nothing wrong, it tells them before hand that there are a bunch of expensive parts that GM won’t cover no matter what happens – drive this brand new car at your own risk.

    I haven’t seen this get much media coverage yet, but to my eyes it certainly makes GM look bad.

  • avatar
    ZoomZoom

    Sloan said:

    Hell what am I saying, I’m 31 years old, GM has never made a car I would have wanted anyway.

    BDB Responded:

    You wouldn’t want to drive a CTS-V? Really?

    I’m not Sloan, but I can definitely say NO FACKING WAY! Just speaking for myself, y’know!

    How about a Malibu? “Never” is a very broad term, even when you exclude the Corvette.

    A Malibu? Are you kidding me? I’m wretching with dry heaves at the thought, and without the aid of a spoon! “Never” is not broad enough for me. “Never not ever in a million, jillion, teragigamegazillion years!” is only beginning to narrow it down for me.

    Also remember, it’s Government Motors now…aka, “the public option.”

  • avatar
    jmo

    Before bashing GM, it’d be interesting to see if other manufacturers consider FI and ECUs to be part of the drivetrain warranty.

    It doesn’t matter – in order to gain market share GM has to make everything far better than the competition. They need cars that are 20% more reliable than Toyota with interiors 20% better than Audi with driving dynamics 20% better than BMW and a warranty 20% better than anyone all for a price 20% less.

    The idea that they can be “just as good” is delusional, they need to be significantly better.

  • avatar
    BDB

    A Malibu? Are you kidding me? I’m wretching with dry heaves at the thought, and without the aid of a spoon!

    Are we talking about the same car? I’d at least cross-shop it if I were in the market for a mid-size sedan (though I’d probably end up in a Fusion).

  • avatar
    BDB

    I mean TTAC gave it five stars, for God’s sake, and said the only one they would put over it is the Mazda 6.

  • avatar
    ZoomZoom

    Michael Karesh :

    Note to GM: TrueDelta doesn’t count free reflashes as repairs in our stats. We do count those that the customer has to pay for.

    Why not? My Corvette had to be flashed under warranty to correct the “steering wheel might lock up under unexpected conditions and not necessarily in the best of neighborhoods” problem. It was a bulletin for Christ’s sake!

    But I didn’t learn about the problem until the car would not start one morning. I lost a half-day of work waiting for the tow truck. Luckily my trusty Miata got me to work that day. But I still had to get home before the end of my shift, then wait for the Chevy courtesy driver to come get me so I could pick up my Vette.

    And after all that, another dealer later could find no proof in the service computer system that this bulletin had been resolved, so THEY HAD TO DO THE FLASH A SECOND TIME.

    Both times were covered under warranty, but the impact to the customer in time lost and associated costs was enormous.

    And this is why I hate GM more than I hate brussel sprouts, chickpeas, and lima beans all added up.

  • avatar

    ZoomZoom,

    I saw at least some reflashes as improvements rather than repairs, and think they’ll become about as common as system updates from Microsoft.

    Assuming they improve the car, I didn’t want to give manufacturers any reason not to provide such updates, as long as they’re free.

  • avatar
    ZoomZoom

    I see.

    Too bad there’s no way to split them out.

    Back then I would have waited for a Saturday to do an “improvement flash”. But according to the bulletin, the flash I got was needed to make the car go, so it was a “fix.” Done twice. On the same car.

  • avatar
    alfred p. sloan

    in my 31 years gm HAS made a handful of cars I admired (never considered buying):

    87 GNX
    89 ZR1
    91 Typhoon
    95 Riviera
    96 Grand Prix
    97 C5
    04 CTS-V
    05 XLR-V
    08 ZR1

    But those are mixed in with the Corsicas, the Centurys, the Park Avenues, the Aveos and all other P.O.S. that the general has insisted I take as serious. (ah hell this is fun, how about the Omega, the Towne Coupe, the Chevette, the S-10, the 6000, the Caprice, the Cimmeron)

    I didn’t leave GM… GM left me.

  • avatar

    Speaking of flashing control units with new software and firmware, I think we’re moving toward open systems that can be updated over time, particularly in the infotainment area. Some of it’s showing up already like Ford’s Sync system and the digital gages and gizmos on the Nissan GT-R. At the NAIAS this year, Johnson Controls was showing what looked like completely programmable instrument panel displays. Eventually things will be like your iPhone, just buy an app for it. The basic hardware like sensors, amps, speakers and display panels will be fixed, but everything else will be software based.

  • avatar
    ZoomZoom

    haha, you said “Chevette”!

    Now go wash your mouth out with soap.

    Oh, damn, I said it too…

  • avatar
    segfault

    Hyundai’s bumper to bumper warranty is 5 years, 60,000 miles, compared to GM’s 3 years, 36,000 miles.

    I agree with Karesh about Hyundai denying coverage under the 5/60 for things that should be covered. There are a lot of 2006+ Sonatas with noisy suspensions that have never been cured.

  • avatar
    BDB

    Alfred, no Sky/Solstice? I’m really pissed at GM for killing them with their respective brands, but they were good little roadsters. Difficult top operation and small trunk aside (re: the trunk, you shouldn’t be buying a roadster as your primary vehicle, anyway!)

  • avatar
    Halftruth

    I agree with jmo, GM has to go above and beyond to change perception here. “May the best car win”?
    Sounds like GM is stating that from a spectator’s view, not that of a company fighting for it’s life.
    These warranty exclusions echo that.
    No thanks GM, I’ll pass.

  • avatar

    I’m making calls to get details on what various manufacturers cover. Interesting stuff.

  • avatar
    northshorerealtr

    I’m wondering if some of the fuel system exclusions were made because of current or perceived problems with e-85, fuel additives, or alternative fuel blends? If the ethanol blend is not in correct proportions, are there issues with the lines/injectors/pump, etc?

  • avatar

    Okay, here’s what I’ve found out so far about various standard powertrain warranties…

    Toyota covers all of the above components except for the throttle body assembly.

    Honda only covers the fuel pump and the wheel bearings on drive wheels.

    Hyundai only covers the wheel bearings on drive wheels.

    Nissan covers none of the above items.

    Still waiting for a call back on Ford.

    http://www.truedelta.com/blog/?p=389

  • avatar
    jpcavanaugh

    I think that Alfred P. Sloan (who has nothing good to say about GM) and P71 CrownVic (who has nothing good to say about Fords) should consider trading names.

  • avatar
    dmrdano

    Flashing done by anyone but a dealer would be a no-no in my book. However, most of the rest of the exclusions they are making would make me unlikely to buy the car. Controllers, for example, are electronic devices that are highly susceptible to heat, voltage surges, dumb design decisions and other such issues, none of which are under the control of the car owner. You cannot do “preventive maintenance” on an ECM to extend its life, nor are you likely to do something to cause it to fail early (no flashing). If GM cannot guarantee the controller for a reasonable length of time, I would tell them to eat it.

    I believe warranties are not always a reflection of your confidence in your product, but they don’t just pull them out of the air either. They are data-driven. As a person who actually reads (and reads into) his warranty papers, I would be concerned. GM cannot afford to have “concerned” customers right now.

    Hey, ZoomZoom, what’s wrong with lima beans?

  • avatar

    The powertrain controllers are often included under the 8/80 emissions warranty. So they’re essentially removing 20,000 miles of coverage from people who drive more than 80,000 miles in five years. Not a big impact there.

  • avatar
    Bill Wade

    # Michael Karesh :
    September 22nd, 2009 at 3:38 pm

    The Hyundai / Kia warranty has many exclusions that other warranties do not. A few participants in TrueDelta’s Car Reliability Survey have reported that 5/60 warranty coverage was denied on items that just about any other manufacturer would have covered under their basic warranty.

    I must have an exceptional KIA dealer. They replaced a front hub assembly and all attached parts as a complete unit for free at 115k mile on a Sorento. They said it had never happened before and KIA wanted all the parts. This is the same dealer that replaced a trans on another Sorento that had over 120k miles. They charged me $200 for miscellaneous items.

    Needless to say I’ve been buying KIAs for service vehicles because of the stellar service. They are even reasonable for general maintenance such as tune ups, oil changes, cam belts, etc. The local GM and Ford dealers charge every cent they think they can get way with and specialize in denying warranty claims.

  • avatar
    cdotson

    BDB:

    The Malibu doesn’t offer a manual transmission. Fusion, 6, Altima, hell even the Camry and Accord (last I checked) do. So no, I would *NEVER* consider buying a Malibu.

    And no, I would *NEVER* want a CTS-V either, unless I get the car for free and you pay my taxes/registration/insurance. I’m sure I can afford to drive it; it’s owning one I wouldn’t want to pay for. A car is only good if it gives back to the owner (in mobility and enjoyment) more than it extracts financially.

  • avatar
    alfred p. sloan

    jpcavanaugh :
    September 22nd, 2009 at 5:05 pm

    “I think that Alfred P. Sloan (who has nothing good to say about GM) and P71 CrownVic (who has nothing good to say about Fords) should consider trading names.”

    cute, but i have no un-warranted hate for the general, just justified contempt.

  • avatar
    obbop

    As a new Chevy truck buyer in 2004 and the resultant failure on Chevy/GMC’s part to mostly fail to honor the then standard 36/36k warranty I laugh aloud at any aspect of Chevy/GMC warranty so-called coverage and continue to warn others whenever possible about the danger of buying a Chevy/GMC product.

  • avatar
    BDB

    The Malibu doesn’t offer a manual transmission. Fusion, 6, Altima, hell even the Camry and Accord (last I checked) do.

    The Camry and Accord offer them *in theory* but good luck finding one at the dealership that isn’t a complete stripper. The Fusion and Altima are good for that reason, though, they exist in reality as well as in theory.

  • avatar
    Andy D

    i have no clue as to what the warranty on my 88 BMW 528e was. But 21 yrs/350k miles later it is still on its original main fuel pump, alternator and ECU. This is by no means exceptional for an E 28. Replacing the fuel pump on a GM involves R+Ring the gas tank. Makes me wonder what else they are cheaping out on.

  • avatar
    jkross22

    jmo,

    BINGO!

    The new cars rolling out of GM are nice, but are they class leading? Value leading? Do they inspire more confidence in making it in the long run than do their competitors?

    No, no and no. Sorry GM, you have to try a lot harder.

    But then, that’s just my perception. I sat in a new LaCrosse. Nice car, but I didn’t see anything about it then said class leading. It’s competitive, sure, but class leading? Not at the price they’re asking.

    GM needs to be running like gazelles to make the best cars anywhere, to show us that they really, really REALLY mean it. Instead, it looks like they’re out on a casual stroll

    Nah.

  • avatar
    wsn

    BDB :
    September 22nd, 2009 at 3:16 pm

    You wouldn’t want to drive a CTS-V? Really?

    ——————————————-

    Who is going to pay for it? You or Bob Lutz?

  • avatar
    wsn

    # BDB :
    September 22nd, 2009 at 5:52 pm

    The Camry and Accord offer them *in theory* but good luck finding one at the dealership that isn’t a complete stripper. The Fusion and Altima are good for that reason, though, they exist in reality as well as in theory.

    ——————————————–

    Not as hard as you think. About 400k Camries and Accords are sold every year in the US (each). If you have to buy a standard, you stand a better chance looking at them.

  • avatar

    chicken excrement.

  • avatar
    BMWfan

    GM considers this a “slight” modification to their warranty? Since the Government is already so involved and vested in their operation, someone in high office should step in and TELL them that they are going to cover everything, because you know the taxpayer might actually want a return on their money. The BOZO’s running GM still do not get it! They HAVE to be significantly better than everyone else, not merely equal! Flush the current management down the toilet and get people in there that actually know what they are doing!

  • avatar
    jmo

    I sat in a new LaCrosse. Nice car, but I didn’t see anything about it then said class leading.

    Buick needs to have an interior better than an Audi, better ride quality than a Mercedes, better handling than a BMW and all of it more reliable than a Lexus.

  • avatar
    Diablozx9

    I liked GM in the 70s.
    Not since.

    They just dont seem to change.

    Anyone who admires GM cars really should try driving the competition.
    I cant name one person I know who likes GM after driving competitors models.

  • avatar
    dejal

    “The Camry and Accord offer them *in theory* but good luck finding one at the dealership that isn’t a complete stripper.”

    Define stripper. I’m old enough to remember the strippers my old man would buy. Base model 4 door Chevys and Fords. No radios, power windows, locks, steering, etc…

    A base Camry or Accord is hardly a stripper.

    The Accord LX looks better equipped than luxury cars of old:
    http://automobiles.honda.com/accord-sedan/specifications.aspx

    same for the Camry
    http://www.toyota.com/camry/features.html

    You are probably correct on finding a stick in stock, but they aren’t stripped.

  • avatar
    holydonut

    Re Karesh and rpiotr01

    — ————-

    1) Let’s be clear, there are not many legit warranty claims (with no TSB) when it comes to the ECM/TCM. But, there are a huge number of ECM/TCM reflashes done under warranty. It’s convenient these are “free” for the customer at the time of repair – but somebody is paying for it. And technically it’s a cost passed to everyone during an initial sale. Dealers often do these flashes because it’s an easy way to tell the customer they tried to fix a problem – full knowing absolutely nothing significant has happened to warrant the reflash. However, the dealer books the warranty cost and get some $ back because they couldn’t find a reasonable labor-op that fit the symptoms… and they have to pay for that diagnostic time.

    — ————-

    2) The items struck out of this warranty coverage are for the extended powertrain portion; not the base bumper-to-bumper. A car that needs a reflash in the bumper-to-bumper warranty time is still covered.

    — ————-

    3) Some TSBs and recalls sent from the manufacturer will mention the need for a flash of the ECM or TCM. For example, some customers who bought SRT Chryslers cars needed a reflash because the transmission was shifting “sloppy” and many customers complained. Thus, a TSB was issued. These types of TSBs tend to be remedied very early in the warranty cycle so it is not a concern of the extended warranty. However, what GM is stating here is that they will not do warranty work for people wanting to change their ECM and TCM flashes very late in the game just because “they think the transmission feels wrong” after 90,000 miles.

    If the dealer finds that there is a real problem with the synchros in the transmission, then the extended powertrain warranty covers it. If the dealer cannot find a discernible problem with the transmission (no odd clunks, no grinding, proper engagement for all gears at applicable speeds) then there will be no warranty for a TCM reflash.

    I’m sure some goodwill claims will allow a known TSB issue to be fixed in the extended warranty term; but the key is having the TSB. Recalls are government-mandated to be executed so they are not impacted by the warranty provisions.

    — ————-

    4) Those aftermarket flash/mod things are usually done in a manner that isn’t traceable by the scan tools in the shop. That is, when the aftermarket “flash goes wrong” there’s not red flag citing that the car’s memory was tempered with; customers usually pretend to be ignorant and say they didn’t know what happened.

    Read the vast Internet forums and see how often people reflash their cars. Sometimes their flashes actually cause problems (especially when they change shift patterns and fuel cutoffs). I don’t care if the volume is insignificant; getting rid of these high-cost outliers from your warranty liability is a good thing, and there is no reason to have warrantied flashes after 36K miles.

    If the entire ECM or TCM just plain explodes – well I’m sure that will be a topic for debate; I would hope this were still warrantied, but I also know some people do some really stupid things to their cars. The number of legit total failures of the ECM/TCM is probably less than the insignificant number of people who buy those Diablo Tuners.

    — ————-

    In my opinion, reflashes shouldn’t be part of the extended warranty anyway; there is no reason for it once you clear the base warranty period.

    — ————-

    I also wish TTAC would publish items like what I’m typing here instead of just pasting a memo and watching people make conclusions such as… GM is no longer covering fuel pumps under the base warranty… or there are serious problems to be had when the reflashes are nixed from the extended warranty.

    Look up the extended powertrain warranty from Toyota or Subaru, etc. You won’t find fuel pumps and injectors in there either.

    Just a reminder for GM’s warranties:
    Base = 36 months 36K miles (the budget-brands)
    Base = 48 months 50K miles (premium cars)

    Incremental coverage that kick in when the base coverage ends:
    Extended PT = 60 months 100K miles
    Roadside Assist = 60 months 100K miles
    Courtesy Transportation = 60 months 100K miles
    Rust = 72 months 100K miles (all except Saab 9-3)
    Rust = 120 months INF miles (Saab 9-3)
    Federal Recalls = Lifetime
    (All are Transferable)

  • avatar
    jakamore

    My freind told me a proverb once and I think it applies here.

    It’s ok for an butt hole to become a nice guy. It is NOT OK for a nice guy to become an butt hole. Once a nice guy becomes a butt hole, He will never be trusted again.

    GM became a nice guy when they upped their warranty. You get the picture.

    I was really considering buying a Colorado instead of a Tacoma. I even visited a Chevy dealership about it and searched prices on the internet. After this news about the “downsizing warranty”. They just lost another customer!

  • avatar
    Conslaw

    I was trying to remember where I remembered language like GM’s warranty restrictions. Oh yes, it was in “The Jerk”

    Carnival Patron:
    Honey, let’s see how good this guy is.
    Now, what do I win?

    Navin Johnson:
    Anything in this general area right in here.
    Anything below the stereo and
    on this side of the bicentennial glasses.
    Anything between the ashtrays
    and the thimble.

    Anything in this three inches
    right in here, in this area.

    That includes the Chiclets,
    but not the erasers.

  • avatar

    Hey Sloan:
    Take all your cars and add them up. GM tosses more defects in one day than all of your desireable cars totaled up.

    Don’t just slag GM. I declined to buy an extended BMW warranty after reading the exclusions. I don’t expect you to pay for shocks or brakes, but the wiring harness ? Radios and GPS ?

    They know far better than you ever will what breaks.

  • avatar
    joeveto3

    The warranty is by and large what allowed Hyundai, and later, Kia, to grow market share in this country. Granted, the growth was supported not just by warranty, but also by capable product, priced reasonably from the start (i.e. they didn’t begin with a pie-in-the-sky MSRP and work their way down to fleet prices).

    If possible, GM could very well use this strategy to grow its market share in the same ways. Their product is already there. But they need the warranty and the no BS pricing.

    To follow through with this would be common sense marketing. However, I seriously doubt they will follow this path. It makes too much sense to price your product fairly and stand behind it. So, despite GM’s bankruptcy, and what led them to bankruptcy, they are still too steeped in the ocean deep arrogance of “We’re GM, the biggest automaker in the US” mentality.

    As such, I expect a continued Fail…And this latest bit of news proves it.

    Oh well.

  • avatar

    holydonut,

    Active forum participants are hardly representative of the general population. Things that seem common on a forum (and twenty people posting about something will make it seem common) can still be rare in the real world.

    I agree that PCMs probably rarely fail. And they’re still covered for 8/80 on any car, because of the mandated emissions warranty.

    I also agree on your statements re: reflashes. Except that in many of these cases they’d be avoided if the transmissions felt right from the start.

    The key things that are no longer covered by the 5/100 warranty are the fuel systems and the wheel bearings. Both are much more likely than the PCM to fail during this time period.

    If you read my earlier comment or blog entry:

    http://www.truedelta.com/blog/?p=389

    You’ll find that Toyota actually does include both fuel system components and wheel bearings in their 5/60 powertrain warranty. I didn’t check Subaru. Honda covers fuel pumps and wheel bearings, but not the other items. Hyundai covers only drive wheel bearings. Nissan covers nada.

    I’m talking five-year powertrain warranties. All of these items are covered under the manufacturers’ basic warranties, usually for 3/36.

  • avatar
    holydonut

    Karesh –

    If you read my #4 you’ll see that I said agreed that it was an insignificant number. But, I also know that the number is costly enough (even though the number is insignificant the related repairs often expensive enough) that it does make an impact to the overall warranty costs. It’s the same reason that Mitsubishi went online and found owners who were AutoX-ing their cars and taking them on track days trying to exclude them from warranty coverage.

    The costs add up, and in my opinion reflashes after 36K miles are usually due to repair shops just placating a customer or due to problems with tampering. And thus, I think it’s reasonable to exclude reflashes from the extended warranty.

    Can you provide me with a link or scan of the Toyota extended 60K warranty that explains the fuel coverage? I know of a owner of a 2005 Corolla that was denied fuel pump coverage (he was past the base warranty). And no, he was not happy about it.

    All I can find online is this link:
    http://www.toyotaownersonline.com/warranty/

    Powertrain Coverage: 60 months/60,000 miles (engine, transmission/transaxle, front-wheel drive, rear-wheel drive, seatbelts and air bags).

    The term “engine” is very vague; but apparently it excludes the in-tank pump. At least, that was the experience of my colleague.

    Here’s a link to Subaru’s warranty page. Fuel system is not covered in their extended PT.

  • avatar

    holydonut,

    Evo owners are a special case.

    That link you found is the only one I found online. I called a dealer and someone in the service department there checked the list of covered parts for me. She was actually a bit surprised to find the fuel system parts on it.

    It’s possible that Toyota expanded the list of covered items in response to GM’s 5/100, so after the 2005 MY. Most of the manufacturers with 5/60 powertrain warranties have only had them since 2007 or so.

    Looking at the Subaru list, it does include wheel bearings and the transmission control unit. (Engine control unit will be 8/80.) Wheel bearings happen to be a common failure on Subarus, so that’s a good one to have in the list.

    Of course, covering a wheel bearing to 60k is a lot different than covering it to 100k. This is one part that will tend to fail based on mileage, not age. I’ve replaced three wheel bearings on two different cars around 65k in the last year or so.

  • avatar
    holydonut

    I’ll give you $1 if you can compile a list of all major failure modules/parts and the warranty coverages… for each model year and sales territory. I think that list will be a 50mb spreadsheet. I saw you started making some calls – but this would easily take about 10,000 calls and the rest of your life to sort out. Michael Moore could make a movie out of this.

    Does Subaru offer a 8/80 warranty? Is that a special add-on? or maybe certified pre-owned? I guess there’s the federally mandated 8/80 SNAFU on all cars sold in states with smog testing; but that doesn’t apply to everyone since it can only be evoked if a car fails an emissions test. If you wish for more crisp shifts at 77K miles you’re not going to get a TCM reflash when you complain to the service manager. I don’t think any automaker touts this 8/80 a part of their regular or extended warranty since it’s a federal regulation that is difficult to explain. That’s why you won’t find it on the OEM websites.

    I think some states have special emissions warranties out to like 10 years for ZEV, but it usually covers specific items like catalytic converters and not necessary major engine components. And there’s the special hybrid warranty mandates. I think all of this is beyond the scope of GM’s letter.

    Either way, fuel system repair warranty out to 100K is basically unheard of and really should be unexpected… except most of the comments were quick to criticize the statement as if the entire warranty on fuel systems was rescinded. To be honest I doubt customers really know what they’re getting with/without this coverage. They just feel like they got boned a bit by Government motors.

    Which means all GM did was butcher itself by amending an existing warranty to draw attention to the notion that the coverage was removed. Who out there knows the EPUS warranty cost for fuel pumps between 36K miles and 100K miles? Oh yeah, GM does. Silly GM.

    ECM/TCM reflashes are also silly to cover on a universal basis out to 100K – and I totally understand why GM would want to avoid the hassle on the extended coverages. But at the same time they could have kept the offering to make peace with customers. It’s weird Subaru draws a line between the ECM and TCM. Again, this wouldn’t be an issue if GM had avoided drawing attention to it.

  • avatar

    holydonut,

    The 8/80 emissions warranty is federally mandated and covers the catalytic converters and ECU is all cars. A car does not have to fail a smog test to qualify–that’s misinformation on your part.

    Subaru distinguishes between the ECU and TCU because the former is already covered for 8/80. 5/60 is less than 8/80, so no point in listing the ECU under their powertrain coverage.

    GM did list the ECU because the 100 part of the 5/100 went beyond 8/80. The ECU effectively had an 8/100 warranty. Now it again has an 8/80 warranty.

    The story here is valid. GM made a big deal about having the “best” powertrain warranty when it introduced the 5/100 powertrain warranty. Now it’s removing some items from that warranty. Thousands of people will have to pay hundreds of dollars more for repairs as a result.

    I don’t see the need to make more phone calls than I made in about 15 minutes earlier today. A certain list of items were removed from the 5/100 warranty. The question arose whether these items were typically covered by powertrain warranties. The answer is sometimes, but not in most cases.

    I don’t see a single comment here that explicitly states that these items are not covered at all. Even if this was the case, this would not alter the above facts.

    You’d like to believe that GM deserves no criticism for reducing its warranty coverage. But, as someone here noted, if you offer something at one time, then take it away, you’re going to get criticized. Especially if the price of the vehicle isn’t adjusted accordingly, and there’s no indication that it has been.

    GM isn’t the only one to be criticized for such a move. In recent years some European manufacturers started providing free maintenance. Then most of them stopped doing so. They took a hit for this, even though American and Japanese luxury car manufacturers never offered this perk.

    Chrysler would be taking a hit right now for backing off of its Lifetime Powertrain Warranty, even though no one else offers it, except that no one is taking Chrysler seriously at the moment. It’s more like, “Oh, are they still around?”

  • avatar
    joe_thousandaire

    A warranty is only as good as the company that provides it. Or to paraphrase tommy-boy “I could take a crap in a box and slap sticker that said ‘guaranteed’ on it, but then all you’d have is a guaranteed piece of crap’.

  • avatar
    PeteMoran

    Logistic and financial provision of a warranty is an expensive exercise.

    It’s encouraging to see GM nip’n’tucking.

    It would not surprise me that after these changes, GM can announce a reduction in forward warranty liability. Without having many of the documents handy, I believe the per quarter warranty provision was of the order of $2b+.

    While it looks like “cheapness”, it should be encouraging, if and ONLY if GM has done the work with suppliers to make the part more reliable. For example, should the ECM/TCM be MORE reliable, GM can provision fewer dollars going forward in financial reports for failure on that item.

    Measured over a whole year, maybe hundreds of millions need not be reported as provision/liability for warranty.

    Speculation on my part, but this stuff is never as bad as it looks.

  • avatar
    ZoomZoom

    BDB :

    re: the trunk, you shouldn’t be buying a roadster as your primary vehicle, anyway!

    I disagree. I drove roadsters as my primary vehicles all the while when I lived in apartments, until my lifestyle changed and I decided that I had too much crap to haul around. That’s when I bought my Prius.

    The roadsters served me well and worked fabulously when my lifestyle was what it was at that time.

    joe_thousandaire :

    A warranty is only as good as the company that provides it. Or to paraphrase tommy-boy “I could take a crap in a box and slap sticker that said ‘guaranteed’ on it, but then all you’d have is a guaranteed piece of crap’.

    God, I was sooo lucky I wasn’t drinking my coffee when I read that. I’m still cleaning up after the last time!

  • avatar
    Da Coyote

    Glad we’ve got top MIT engineers directing GM.

    Oops, forgot. We’ve got a law school dropout at the head.

    Heh! And they think they can compete with the Japaneese/Germans/Koreans.

  • avatar
    GS650G

    We are getting some idea of what breaks on GM cars and light trucks.

    Many have posted or stated other manufacturers do the same thing so GM should get break (pun intended) on this revision. Bull. They need to exceed other warranties if they have any hope of winning business. Then other companies will follow.

    Bad move.

  • avatar
    holydonut

    Karesh –

    I thought we were talking about reflashes?

    Link to the Fed Warranty: Emissions Warranties for 1995 and Newer Cars and Trucks

    Quote…
    A. PERFORMANCE WARRANTY

    You are eligible for this warranty protection
    provided that:

    * Your car or light-duty truck fails an approved emissions test; and
    * Your vehicle is less than 2 years old and has less than 24,000 miles (up to 8 years/80,000 miles for certain components); and
    * Your state or local government requires that you repair the vehicle; and
    * The test failure does not result from misuse of the vehicle or a failure to follow the manufacturers’ written maintenance instructions; and
    * You present the vehicle to a warranty-authorized manufacturer representative, along with evidence of the emission test failure, during the warranty period.

    The EPA rules regarding “design and defect” items (the part that you say covers the ECM) has to do with total failure of the system. A customer with a general complaint getting placated (those that I cited earlier as ones that result in unnecessary reflashes) would not be covered.

    And as you said, this also means Subaru and GM hav the same warranty on ECM… Subaru has a longer warranty on TCM as you stated. Subaru has the same warranty on fuel system (3/36) that GM does.

    According to their ads, the local pizza shop has the “best” pizza on the West coast. GM says they have the “best” one because it lasts the longest of the transferable warranties. Are you holding GM to a higher standard because you helped to fund their recovery?

  • avatar
    yankinwaoz

    I’m not a lawyer, or a mechanic. All I know is that very expensive and critical components are no longer covered for problems.

    What this says to me as a potential customer is: “We (GM) do not have enough faith in our products to back them. In fact, we are really hoping to sock you with some expensive (profitable) repairs in the future. So tough s**t customers.”

    Adios New GM.

  • avatar
    jlopez

    so since i got a 06 chevy impala thats gm certified.with the 100,000 mile warrenty on engine and trans .dont think the driveaxles ,but i would still have the parts that got voided for the 2010 crowd included ,correct?such as ecm and tcm,and other voided parts?


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