By on June 1, 2009

General Motors has filed for federal Chapter 11 protection. Official papers filed in Lower Manhattan court at 7:57 AM list $82.3 billion in assets vs. $172.8 billion in debts. The bankrupt automaker’s largest creditors are the Wilmington Trust Company ($22.8 billion in debts) and the United Auto Workers ($20.6 billion in employee obligations). Judge Robert E. Gerber has been assigned the case. The President of the United States will address General Motors’ insolvency in an official announcement later today. Meanwhile, a Rasmussen poll [via the Detroit Free Press] reveals that only 21 percent of likely voters support government aid to GM. Some 67 percent oppose the Obama administration’s plan to bless the troubled automaker with $50 billion (in total) in exchange for a 70 percent ownership stake in the reconstituted company. “Given a choice between providing government funding for GM or letting it go out of business, most of the respondents (56%) said it would be better to let GM go out of business.”

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52 Comments on “GM Files for Bankruptcy...”


  • avatar
    KatiePuckrik

    On the 03/04/2005, TTAC called it.

    The trouble is, now a new problem is going to surface. Debt.

    Chpater 11 will write off, pretty much, any debts GM has (which means, there’s a lot of creditors who will lose out) and the US government will pour more money into GM (money will needs to be found from somewhere).

    The result?

    Higher taxes to fund a blossoming public debt.

  • avatar
    pista

    That’s your post?

    Sure it’s big news but usually TTAC is good for a bit more analysis if not detail. Or do I detect a touch of amertume?

  • avatar
    superbadd75

    @ pista: What could Robert say about GM’s C11 that he (and many others) hasn’t already said? All that was left was the formality of the paperwork, and there you have it. It’s a done deal.

    I just want to see a list of dealer closures now that they’re public info.

  • avatar
    postman

    I’m in my fifties, and now that the announcement has been officially made, I’m stunned. Who would have thought there would come a day when both GM and Chrysler would crash and burn? Never thought I’d see it happen.

  • avatar
    commando1

    I can’t even begin to show how angry I am at how I am now going to pay in taxes for the rest of my life for 30+ years of inept management.

    Free enterprise my ass…..

  • avatar
    Stein X Leikanger

    Well, there are 200+ GM Death Watch Diaries that comprise quite an indictment.

    If someone had the patience and will to go through the comments threads on those, and analyze them, it would be quite a journey.
    From – are you effing out of your mind, RF?
    To – sigh, not only are they capital doofuses, but they are extremely well rewarded capital doofuses, those GM bosses.

    The important thing now is how China responds, which is why Geithner is there. If they yank their support of the dollar, then get ready for another level of hurt. (And yes, couldn’t resist the pun – be happy Geithner speaks Chinese.)

  • avatar
    210delray

    Congrats, Robert, for calling this one so early as Katie mentioned, when almost everyone else thought you were a fool or worse! Count me among the majority who doesn’t want this company to continue on government support.

  • avatar
    NickR

    commando1…don’t forget your progeny for generations to come. You and I will long since have been recycled by mother earth and this debt will still be hangin’ around.

    So, what exactly does this mean for Wilmington Trust? They are owed more than the UAW? Damn.

  • avatar
    MikeyDee

    My heart bleeds this morning for the thousands of suppliers that will now have to shut their doors. They all need to put clothes on the backs of their children, put food in their tummies and a roof over their heads, like the rest of us. In a New York second, all their receivables have been wiped out.

  • avatar
    menno

    Those of us “crazy” people who actually believe the literal words in the Holy Bible can tell you that, in the end-times prophesies, there is no mention of anything which resembles a United States.

    Given that the clock started ticking to zero time (i.e. the end of time) in 1948 with the “impossible” reformation of Israel, and that only one generation would pass before The End, it seems very likely to we “crazy” people that this nation has little time left.

    The GM and Chrysler debacle are but symptoms of a deadly disease working its way through a zombie nation.

    Read “Our War Within”. http://www.thereturnofscipio.com/

  • avatar
    Bridge2far

    “Free enterprise my ass…..’

    Welcome to the world of Obama, Reid, Pelosi, etc

  • avatar
    OldandSlow

    The devil in the details is how the US Government going to get out of owning GM. Unless it is making money hand over fist, no one is going to want to buy it back from the US government for anywhere near what the government will have sunk into it.

    A conservative commentator remarked yesterday, that this will Barack Obama’s Vietnam with GM needing a few billion to stay afloat every quarter or so.

  • avatar
    musah

    I will sit in my corner and let the pop corns be served as this event that was predicted over 3 years ago starts properly now. But I’m sad for the Families of employees.

  • avatar
    highrpm

    RF, See you at Deathwatch 1001.

    OK just kidding. I’ve been following your Deathwatch series a long time and remember the constant string of denying commenters, who usually replied with my opening sentence. I haven’t seen that line in months though. I think that at a minimum, the folks who posted that type of comment (or made negative remarks against RF and his Deathwatch series) should come back out of the woodwork, suck it up, and admit they were wrong, like real men do.

    So GM can write off their debts now. Very nice. But they owe money to other companies all over the US. One story I heard is that 50+ smaller trucking firms near Detroit are under threat of closing down because GM owes them a large sum of money that it may not pay out now. I’m sure they owe money to every supplier in town, every bank, etc. What will happen to all these companies?

  • avatar
    gamper

    I never thought it would happen, particularly under the Obama Administration. I also said that GM would outlast TTAC. I guess I will now eat crow.

    What upsets me more than the tax dollars being spent on GM is the fact that the same old UAW is still, and will remain, a parasite for GM’s bottom line eating up black ink as always. GM will still be burdoned with Pension plans and excessivly high wages.

    There has been a lot of talk in the media about labor concessions, but you never really hear that UAW workers will maintain their current health care coverage, pension benefits and hourly wage. The concessions should have gone much deeper considering the taxpayer will now be supporting the fat UAW workforce. Not only that but the UAW is still forcing GM’s hand on production issues, which plants it can close, how many vehicles it can import, etc.

    If ever there was a chance to truly reorganize, it would be now in bankruptcy, but it has been lost by leaving the UAW at the wheel.

  • avatar
    menno

    highrpm, these companies won’t be paid until and unless The One chooses to have them paid. My home state of Michigan will sink, but guess what, America? We’re simply the bow. What happens to the bow, happens to the rest of the vessel…. think Titanic.

    If it isn’t clear to anyone out in reality-land that we live under a one-man band, then you need to start scraping those scales off your eyes…

    The United States Constitution was essentially considered to be “just a piece of paper” by the imbecile, Bush; Obama and company are treating it like toilet paper.

  • avatar
    Richard Chen

    The GM Zombie Watch begins: arise, Government Motors, arise! (cackle of a mad scientist in the background) $30 billion dollars more to try to get it up…

    NYT: The 31-Year-Old in Charge of Dismantling G.M.

    Doubtful, but worth a try – hey there Mr. Deese, are here you on TTAC?

  • avatar
    Bridge2far

    “I think that at a minimum, the folks who posted that type of comment (or made negative remarks against RF and his Deathwatch series) should come back out of the woodwork, suck it up, and admit they were wrong, like real men do.”

    I wouldn’t say I was a denyer. More of a defender. Fact is that GM is in the throws of mucho turmoil. I hope they can recover.

  • avatar
    JMII

    Congrats to RF on calling GM out FOUR years ago, if only someone (anyone) had listened. Oh well bring on the Government Motors Death Watch because we all know GM 2.0 ain’t going to survive either.

    I think the real tell-tale during GM’s next phase will be the Volt. Everyone knows its a money loser, so it will become a major hot potato. Is a major case of damn if you do, damn if don’t. The new GM needs a “green” electric vehicle but at what cost. So what will happen? The answer to this question will tell you everything you need to know about the new, new GM.

  • avatar
    KatiePuckrik

    Menno,

    I’d love to have a chat with you about theology. As an agnostic-bordering-on-atheist, it’s always fun to chat about stuff like this (I stumped a couple of christians with my questions, the other day).

    Having said all that, do you REALLY believe that GM and Chrysler are the first signs of a moral disease sweeping a society?

    Let’s keep things in perspective, yes, GM and Chrysler were driven into the ground, but they’ve paid a heavy price for it (loss of corporate reputation, much smaller company, etc). In fact, if we were to look at this situation through the eyes of Peter Schiff, he’d see this as a good thing.

    “It’s a correction, not a malaise” he’d say.

    There are plenty of well run corporations in the United States, some of them even have an ethics codes.

    GM and Chrysler going bankrupt is just simply 2 corporations believing their own bullNSFW, when they should have taken a long, hard look at itself.

    That’s what I think, anyway.

    P.S. I’m not sure whether the United States has one, but in the UK we have a retailer called “The Co-Operative”. They do banking, groceries, funeralcare, electrical goods, etc. But their main ethos is ethically sound profits. For instance, their banking division will not invest in companies which are “unethical” (i.e. arms companies, animal cruelty, etc). I shop and bank with them all the time because it’s what I believe in. Maybe the United States could benefit from a retailer like that?

  • avatar
    Stingray

    To the people that complains about “further analysis”, I think this is the proper way to show the news.

    After all, GM’s bankruptcy has been discussed here a LOT.

    As I said before, it’s sad the way things are happening/happened. As RF said, they should have filed long ago to avoid the bloodbath that is surely to follow.

    Right now I see that GM will end similarly to Chrysler in the 70’s: without the (now) important overseas branches (Chrysler sold most of its international assets when it almost went belly up in the 70’s), leaving it mostly as a local player. Not good in these times, just see what happened at Auburn Hills…

    Today will be intensive in the news front.

  • avatar
    KatiePuckrik

    To all the people who make references to “Zombie corporations” just watch a George Romero film to see what damage zombies can do……

  • avatar
    Samuel L. Bronkowitz

    The only “disease” I see here is a government and a society that is unwilling or unable to act like mature adults and deal with real consequences. We haven’t the money to bail out every company that is poorly run. We haven’t the money to bail out every state that has chosen to burn money on needless political-pork boondoggle programs. We haven’t the money to reward decades of union excesses by paying them off now. I’ve even heard some of the Madoff ponzi-scheme victims saying they need a bail-out. Individually and corporately we simply cannot go on decade after decade spending more than we make.

    I think the current economic mess is a huge fork in the road for our country. I know which route I think we should take. And, sadly, I know which route we probably will take.

  • avatar
    PeteMoran

    As an outsider, I am still shocked by the outright greed and selfishness of many US decision makers (and consumers) that has lead you to where you are today; a financial basket case.

    Generations will pay, because previous generations wanted it all for themselves. Wasteful cars; mine. Wasteful urban sprawl; mine too. Health care; no WAY am I sharing. Housing; just another toy for speculation. $5 Burger/Coke; pay that guy below-subsistence wage. $2/bag pet food; yeah pad it with melamine in China, my dog ain’t worth $2.02/bag.

    For a country of such capability and natural wealth, hardly anyone with a voice thinks about sustainability. One can only hope this sets off a chain reaction of questioning and internal critique.

    Good luck, because the World needs the USA back on it’s feet and it’s people caring about each other rather than what they can rape from “The System” for themselves.

  • avatar
    menno

    Hi Katie,

    Yes, when I lived in the UK, we went to the Co-Op, and had an account at the Co-Op bank in Ipswich, too.

    In the states, 6-7 decades ago, in rural areas, the big corporations refused to electrify the country because it was far more profitable to stick to the cities. Electric Co-Ops flourished and still exist across the entire US and are at the forefront of modern generation technique in many instances. Still co-operatively owned. My power company is called Cherryland Electric Co-Op.

    I also strongly believe in Credit Unions and have belonged to one since 1976. This is much like the Co-Op bank. Also, Mutual Insurance Companies, such as Amica in Rhode Island. The policy holders ARE the owners; dividends are sent out once a year of the company is profitable (and Amica is profitable, plus it has been in the top two or three of the Consumer Reports for insurance companies for at least a decade).

    GM and Chrysler are not the first signs of this moral (and morale risk) disease; they are symptoms.

    Likewise, a moral and upright people would never have allowed a fascist-socialist anywhere near the controls of the nation by electing him.

    Before anyone left of center accuses me of racism in a typical knee-jerk response, recall that I was cheerfully pushing for the Presidential Election of Ambassador Alan Keyes last year, among others of similar mind-set (when he was not taken up by two different parties as their Presidential candidate – Republican and Constitution Party). Look him up. Also recall that I have consistently trashed “W” and for good reason, for years.

  • avatar
    MikeyDee

    To see the future of Detroit, look at Pittsburgh.

    At one time, Pittsburgh had a thriving steel industry. Now, much of that industry is gone, but a smaller Pittsburgh survives, due to other businesses springing up.

    This will be Detroit 10 to 15 years from now. It will be a smaller town with some auto business, but not nearly what it was in its heyday.

  • avatar
    menno

    Pete, the rest of the world has been enviously hating on the United States and trashing us verbally for decades. It comes about naturally from being rescued twice, after two world wars, I think. Suffice to say that my Newfoundland dog is a far nicer “personality” than 90% of the human race, which speaks volumes about the human race.

    So now, within a few years to a decade, the rest of the world will find out just how loverly it is to live without benefit of a nation which was built on a moral and just basis.

    Revisionist historians trash the US all over the world, even in the US. But one thing mustn’t be forgotten.

    Which other nation in the history of the world, had it obtained nuclear weapons when no other nation had them, and finding the rest of the world wrecked from a world-war, could or would have passed up the opportunity to simply take over the world? Name me one, out of all history, please.

    Here is the one: The United States of America, which from 1945 through 1948 DID have sole use of nuclear weaponry and DID NOT take over the world, but instead spent its own money to rebuild ex-enemies and friends alike.

    Euro-trash and South Americans and Islamofascists who love to trash-talk the United States and wish for our demise are now soon going to find out that you really should be careful what you wish for. You might get it.

    I call it the law of unintended consequences.

    Samuel, you hit the nail squarely on the head.

  • avatar
    KatiePuckrik

    Menno,

    Whilst I agree that it is immoral to allow fascism, you talk about socialism in the same vein, which I cannot agree with.

    Socialism can work and does work, provided it is executed properly. One only has to look at France, the UK (believe it or not) and pretty much the whole of Western Europe. Socialism ensures that people have a base standard of living and can aspire to greater heights, if so desired. To make sure everyone has an equal chance in life can’t be immoral, surely? (and no, I’m not calling you “Shirley”! ;O))

    What I do think is immoral is for GM and Chrysler to champion the “wonders” of the American “free market system” (note the inverted commas) when they were making record profits, then go cap in hand to the government when times are lean. Capitalist when you fancy it and socialist when it suits you.

    Almost like Aesop’s fable of the ant and grasshopper, eh?

  • avatar
    guyincognito

    I came to Detroit fresh out of school at the height of the SUV boom. I remember getting a $5000 bonus after only 6 months in the company and thinking, “Wow! We’re on top of the world.”

    But by 2001 things started to turn downward. I looked around and saw major problems. For one, all of the good people in the company worked in the truck division. Poeple who were poor performers were sent to car as a punishment. Management was making seemingly schizophrenic decisions. In one instance a high level exec drove a SUV that was a few months away from production (his first ever ride in this model) and demanded a total change in dampers at a huge cost for an improvement no one outside the vehicle dynamics group could notice. Worse, the relationship with our suppliers was extremely combative. Design changes were declarations of war.

    TTAC was the only place I found espousing my concerns and highlighting issues I hadn’t seen. The collective denial within Detroit was infectious. People realized there were issues but there was no sense of urgency to correct them or even a hint of worry that they were potentially fatal. Without the analysis and discussion here it could have been easy to be drawn into that trap. Instead, TTAC contributed in no small part to my decision to get out 2 1/2 years ago. I can see from the plight of my friends still there, how different my life would be had I not made that decision.

    For me, this decline has been traumatic. I have been obsessed with cars for as long as I can remember. It was my childhood dream to be an automotive engineer. Still the proudest moment of my life was opening that offer letter and realizing my dream had come true. I can only hope that one day the auto industry will regain some of its former glory and I can find a place in it.

  • avatar
    Rastus

    General Motors- I spit on your grave.

    (Can I interest anyone in a special GM “family/employee discount”? Anyone?? LOL )

    When the fat disgusting socialists come out of the woodwork, I’d say “Yes, we ARE near the end of times” Menno :) God Help us all, but more importantly…we need a time for grieving.

    Grieving is necessary in these most-troublesome times. That and the aforementioned 10 Big Macs and a Diet Coke.

    Speaking of religion- does anyone have any doubt that GM will Burn in Hell???

  • avatar
    ConejoZing

    So despite that insider trading knowledge of 9/11 they still went bankrupt.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2CVAnRByfg

    I’m almost thinking that this is also some staged attempt to bankrupt and ruin the United States. Either that, or it is almost unbelievable incompetence on the part of what once was a huge industrial company. Since Obama has been in office the spending and debt load have gone absolutely bonkers…

  • avatar
    KatiePuckrik

    Rastus

    “When the fat disgusting socialists come out of the woodwork”

    Hoi! We’re not all fat and disgusting!

    “Speaking of religion- does anyone have any doubt that GM will Burn in Hell???”

    I don’t know about burning in hell, but they’ll certainly fry in the bankruptcy court! ;O)

  • avatar
    Rastus

    ConejoZing, yes…there truly IS a concerted effort to destroy this country. And they are doing a fine job, now aren’t they?

    Yes, just LOOK at what the black Furer has “accomplished” in 5 months- the mind boggles as it has truly been an utter Blitzkrieg.

  • avatar
    PeteMoran

    @ menno

    Which other nation in the history of the world, had it obtained nuclear weapons when no other nation had them, and finding the rest of the world wrecked from a world-war, could or would have passed up the opportunity to simply take over the world? Name me one, out of all history, please.

    Post-WW2 USA has been an interventionist nation for good and bad, mostly because it and the USSR held the world to ransom for 50 years via (and in pursuit of) nuclear weapons/crazy economic idiology (on both sides).

    You need to read “The Decision To Use The Atomic Bomb” by Henry Stimson and “The Trial of Henry Kissinger” by Christopher Hitchens.

  • avatar
    Slocum

    I’m in my fifties, and now that the announcement has been officially made, I’m stunned. Who would have thought there would come a day when both GM and Chrysler would crash and burn? Never thought I’d see it happen.

    I’m in my 40s and have been expecting this for years. The legacy and labor costs, the ridiculously inflexible work rules — there was no way Detroit was going to be able to keep competing against the transplants without these costs and survive. No way.

    I will say, though, I thought Ford would go before GM (but then Ford avoided that by being smart/lucky enough to mortgaging everything to the hilt while the financial market would still lend them the money).

    And now, even though the debt load and legacy costs are off the table, GM is still going to have a work rule and labor cost disadvantage relative to the transplants. Plus a demoralized, older work-force who think the world has screwed them over (and that Obama has their back). I think it’s more likely than not that ‘Good GM’ is ultimately going to follow the path of ‘Bad GM’ even after 50 billion has been pumped in.

  • avatar
    menno

    Nevertheless, Pete, you can’t deny that the United States DID have the bomb – alone – and it could very easily have been used to simply make a one-world government under the United States.

    Who could have stopped us? Nobody.

    It is to our eternal credit as a nation that it didn’t even occur to us to do it.

    Nobody can deny this.

    Once again; name me ONE OTHER country which would have had the moral courage to not take over the rest of the world, had they had sole access to the ‘bomb’.

    Iran (persia)? Iraq? Saudi Arabia? North Korean communists? How about Pol Pot? Adolph? Stalin? Idi Amin? Mao?

    I realize some of these people were not yet in control of their respective nations; that is not the point.

    The point is – remember what was good about our nation. It was good, once. It was upright, once. It was moral, once.

    The rest of the world pointing a finger at America, has three fingers pointing back – at themselves.

  • avatar
    Robert Schwartz

    “The important thing now is how China responds, which is why Geithner is there. If they yank their support of the dollar, then get ready for another level of hurt.”

    We can hope. Right now D.C. is burning through money like it just paper. The idea that the Chinese Communists might put a stop to this nonsense is so humorous on so many levels, that it makes me wag my tail.

  • avatar
    Robert Schwartz

    I know Gerber. He is a douche-bag.

  • avatar
    yankinwaoz

    There was a death watch post a while back titled “Outrun the bear” (or something to that effect). It predicted that when GM or Ford filed BK, then the other would have to also.

    So, I expect that Ford will have no choice but to file BK too. I haven’t seen a Ford Deathwatch in a long time. But how can Ford compete with New GM when New GM has no legacy debts?

  • avatar
    Axel

    So it goes.

  • avatar

    SHAME on you Robert for causing GM’s bankruptcy with your sassy ‘Deathwatch’ writings all these years, and your Steve Jobs-ian Reality Distortion Field; -SHAME!!

    I hope you’re pleased with yourself!!! :P

    ++btw, when does the new ‘Good’ GM Deathwatch 2.0, ‘Attack of the Clones’, Series 2, Episode 1 Start?

  • avatar
    Slocum

    So, I expect that Ford will have no choice but to file BK too. I haven’t seen a Ford Deathwatch in a long time. But how can Ford compete with New GM when New GM has no legacy debts?

    How can Ford compete? By not having a Federal Auto Czar dictating product strategy. By not rolling up a third of their dealer network. By scooping up some of the market share that GM will lose with Pontiac, Hummer, Saab, and Saturn disappear. By selling to customers disgusted with the bailouts who want to be able to register a protest vote with their wallets.

    I think Ford’s biggest competitive problem going forward won’t be the ‘new GM’ and the ‘new Chrysler’ but Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, and Nissan — Ford still has cost and flexibility disadvantages relative to the transplants.

  • avatar
    fallout11

    GRRAAAGGH! ZAMBAH MOTAHRZ AR HAHR!
    GM will now live on indefinitely, at our and our children’s expense, rather than being put out of their 30+ years of misery. Epic fail come full circle.

  • avatar
    Raskolnikov

    Even though it has been a foregone conclusion for some time now, I still feel ashamed, angry and disappointed that it has come to this.

    In a world where everything is instantaneous, this foreshadows the impending implosion of the American empire (10 to 20 yrs away). It’s been a good 200+ yrs people! Da svidanije!!

    Can we start the “USA Deathwatch?” First topic:
    The Borrower is Slave to the Lender

  • avatar
    gormanwvzb

    I think bankruptcy is the right way to go, but not the way the Administration wants it to go. It should be a disconcerting fact that in both the Chrysler and GM bankruptcies, the Administration is pushing senior bondholders to take well less than they are legally entitled. Secured creditors should be paid the full amount, according to the rule of absolute priority. Additionally, the UAW and government are getting the lion’s share.

    I read a very good article with a humorous title, “Goodbye GM, Hello People’s Car” at http://economicefficiency.blogspot.com/2009/05/good-bye-gm-hello-peoples-car.html

    My other great concern is that GM is going to be used as a policy tool and not as a private business. There have already been claims from the Administration that the focus is going to be on small, hybrid cars, while trucks and SUVs have the highest profit margins. Is Obama the new Clement Attlee?

  • avatar
    Detroit-Iron

    @ Axel

    Nice.

  • avatar
    menno

    Raskolnikov said:

    The Borrower is Slave to the Lender

    True. We Americans and moderns all think we’re freeeeeee….

    Not

    So.

  • avatar
    tony7914

    menno :
    June 1st, 2009 at 9:19 am

    “highrpm, these companies won’t be paid until and unless The One chooses to have them paid. My home state of Michigan will sink, but guess what, America? We’re simply the bow….”

    Kinda sucks because your taking Indiana with you. For what it’s worth I sent an e-mail to the Governor last week suggesting it was time to repeal the repeal of our right to work laws. Folks here and in Kokomo are scared to death what’s left of Delphi and the 3 Chrysler transmission plants are going to disappear, that would be the end of this 3 county area.

  • avatar
    charly

    Menno,

    The USA had the bomb in 1945. But it had only a few bombs at that time. It wasn’t until the late ’50 that they had enough to defeat the enemy by bombs alone. And in 1945 the largest army with the best weapons etc. wasn’t the USA but the USSR. Something you don’t hear on discovery but is obvious the truth

  • avatar
    rpn453

    menno : Nevertheless, Pete, you can’t deny that the United States DID have the bomb – alone – and it could very easily have been used to simply make a one-world government under the United States.

    You really think it’s that easy to control billions of culturally diverse people? It’s ridiculous to think that large populations of people would just allow themselves to be controlled without at least a few decades of social engineering and brainwashing. They’d resist, and it would be no more profitable than Vietnam or Iraq (though Iraq is certainly strategically important, and may pay off eventually). The U.S. could mass bomb the resisters, but then they’d just destroy the wealth that they instead gain through economic means, and there would always be plenty more resisters.

  • avatar
    Phillip

    @ KatiePuckrik

    Whilst I agree that it is immoral to allow fascism, you talk about socialism in the same vein, which I cannot agree with.

    Socialism can work and does work, provided it is executed properly. One only has to look at France, the UK (believe it or not) and pretty much the whole of Western Europe.

    None of those countries are socialist, not even close.

    Socialism is a transitional phase to communism. Likewise there are no, and never were any true communist countries; all “communist” nations were actually socialist as none achieved true communism. Soviet president Brezhnev even mentioned this in a speech referring to the USSocialistR.

    One of the most important traits of a socialist state is that it is a dictatorship (read Marx). So simply be being democratic and holding elections, exludes a state from being socialist.

  • avatar
    Campisi

    I haven’t seen that line in months though.

    Farago courteously requested that I stop posting them. So, I did.

    I think that at a minimum, the folks who posted that type of comment… should come back out of the woodwork, suck it up, and admit they were wrong, like real men do.

    Wrong about what? I said he’d get to GM Death Watch 250, and he did. I never said he was wrong. I’ve disagreed with much of his writings and much of his tone (very rarely speaking out on it), but I accepted long ago that GM was going under in some way.


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