By on June 23, 2009

TTAC just got a call from the Department of Transportation (DOT). The agency in charge of implementing the Cash for Clunkers program gave us a heads-up that the Car Allowance Rebate System is already attracting “unauthorized identity appropriation.” To wit: cashforclunkersheadquarters.com and cashforguzzlers.net, which sucker surfers into “pre-registering” for the program. “There are a number of people out there who are implying that dealers and/or consumers need to register with them to be eligible for the CARS program,” DOT spokesman Rae Tyson reveals, leaving aside questions about what these sites may do with the information. “This is completely untrue.”

Tyson said that cars.gov is the only official DOT CARS website. He also said his agency is working with car manufacturers and dealer associations to contact all state-registered dealers and promote the program to consumers.

“If you’re a consumer, there is no need to pre-register with anyone. If you’re a dealer, we will contact you as and when the program is initiated.”

Tyson refused to be drawn on whether or not the DOT will seek a criminal investigation into these practices. “We’re not looking at this from a criminal point-of-view,” Tyson said. “That would be a matter for the Justice Department.”

Here we go.

UPDATE: Brian Pasch, owner of cashforguzzlers.net, has contacted TTAC through the comments section (below) and via telephone. As a result of that conversation, Mr. Pasch has taken aggressive action to clarify his company’s relationship to the CARS program.

As stated in the text, there is no official “participating dealer” program for CARS; all legal car dealers are eligible. Consumers do not have to pre-register for CARS. Any website that asks dealers or consumers to provide information for this program without making that fact clear is misleading both, as per the DOT.

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45 Comments on “Cash For Clunkers Fraud Begins...”


  • avatar
    grog

    At least somebody else here in DOT is tracking this kind of thing and alerting the usual online suspects.

  • avatar
    Davekaybsc

    Grift! It’s the American Way(TM)!

  • avatar
    Stingray

    Man, that was fast. For a moment I felt like I was reading a local site.

  • avatar
    superbadd75

    People couldn’t really think either of those sites is an official government site, could they? The CFCHQ site looks to be nicely put together, but the first clue to anyone should be that it’s not a .gov site. Then the name, “Cash for Clunkers”, should be another hint. Anyone fooled by these things by not doing their homework should probably learn a hard lesson.

  • avatar
    Lumbergh21

    Anyone fooled by these things by not doing their homework should probably learn a hard lesson.

    Yes, and hopefully those behind these websites will also learn a hard lesson (hardly likely).

  • avatar
    redrum

    the first clue to anyone should be that it’s not a .gov site

    I’d agree, except there’s examples like annualcreditreport.com which are perfectly legitimate sites that are at least associated with the government.

  • avatar
    ZoomZoom

    superbadd75 :

    …anyone fooled by these things by not doing their homework should probably learn a hard lesson.

    Not gonna happen.

    We’ve already bailed out the automakers, banks, and homeowners. Why not car owners too? After all, the sums at issue won’t be nearly as much money as the others. The government will just whip out its charge card once again.

    Cha ching!

  • avatar
    WetWilly

    Bonus points for the scammers who, unlike the government, have put up a companion site en Espanol.

  • avatar
    don1967

    Is this really a surprise? Every unnatural government scheme, from medicare to welfare, carbon taxes to clunker cash, is inevitably cracked by some fraudster who proves to be twice as smart as the bureaucrats who implemented it.

    Nature always finds a way.

  • avatar
    agenthex

    Every unnatural government scheme, from medicare to welfare, carbon taxes to clunker cash, is inevitably cracked by some fraudster who proves to be twice as smart as the bureaucrats who implemented it.

    That’s because we’ve absolved ourselves of “unnatural government schemes” like laws against fraud in favor of the free market.

  • avatar
    yankinwaoz

    I just ran into the exact same problem where a private company is trying to charge tourist to the US $50 to fill out the new online pre-landing form. It looks like the free official US gov’t site. I read the fine print. All they do is take what you entered and send it to immigration.

    An Aussie friend of mine was just suckered into it by her travel agent who told her that she is required by US law to use it (which is totally false).

    Take a look… how would a visitor to our country know better before they are fleeced out of more money?

    Oh this boils my blood. Grrrrrr.

  • avatar
    cubic1

    To who it may concern:

    I am a CEO at a marketing company in San Diego, CA.

    Cubic Marketing Inc. is an Automotive Advertising Company.

    I have seen some articles and now this blog about gasguzzlers.net. Cubic Marketing is very concerned about the news that was realease about this company Pasch Consulting (which operates cashforclunkers.net) also a company that has service the Auto and other industry for many years. I have done many business transactions with Pasch Consuting and am offended at the accusation that Brian Pash is scamming anyone.
    The site Brian has created has information on it that has keep Cubic Marketing and a Multitude of dealerships nationwide informed on this Bill. Pasch Consulting has never made any claims that he was a government site. I have contact TTAC and stated my complaint and will continue to call until I get answers on why the TTAC with no research on Pasch Consulting would say that they were “scamming” people and dealers.
    This bill is not just about vouchers this is about stimulating the economy. This generates revenue for the US in many ways.
    To assume that somebody is a “scammer” because they offer to give a consumers name & phone number to a local dealer so the dealer can sell that consumer a car is not right!

    For the DOT and TTAC “the truth about cars” to slander a company with no valid research on the company background could effect that company and all of the companies tax paying employees.

    I think that everyone needs to know that this is big news for the auto industry and the auto advertising industry. Every smart company that is in the Auto industry will buy into this Bill and advertise it, spread the word. FINALLY SOME GOOD NEWS FOR THE AUTOMOTIVE INDUSTRY!

    If anyone on this board has proof that Brian Pasch is ripping people off I would love to see it
    josh@cubicevents.com or call me at 866-462-8242.
    Cubic Marketing Inc.
    2665 Ariane dr.
    Mt. Soledad Business Center
    San Diego, Ca 92117

    Joshua J Hernandez, CEO

  • avatar
    yankinwaoz

    Gee Josh… Where do I begin?

    Perhaps it is the fact that Cash For Clunkers web site is designed to look like it from the government?

    Perhaps it is because you are using the CAPITAL BUILDING on the logo… implying that it is a government website.

    Your arguments hold about as much water as the telemarketing industry who claims “We are just doing a great public service letting Americans know about the great products and services out there.”

    The bottom line is that these sites are about as scummy as a police impostor.

  • avatar
    cubic1

    The logo posted here which is Pasch Consulting’s logo has a gas pump not a capital building?

    Your mistaking Brians logo for this other site cashforclunkersheadquarters which I know nothing about!
    But I personally know the CEO of Pasch and if you think he is scamming prove it before you assume you know all about his company and reputation.
    Do your research!

    Josh

  • avatar
    cubic1

    I think TTAC should write a article of retraction.

    Unless they have proof of this article.

    I know nothing about this other site you are referring cashforclunkersheadquarters.com so I can not speak about that site.

    But if you do have proof I would like to know.

    I do not think it would be right to say TTAC is a scam without any facts.

    Cubic Marketing Inc.
    866-462-8242

  • avatar
    agenthex

    cubic1 has a point. The http://www.cashforguzzlers.net/ site isn’t that deceptive since they link to the proper sources right from the front page. If anything, the link posted in the blog entry is deceptive because that is not the main page of the site.

    They could organize and explain the program better, tho.

  • avatar
    Dukeboy01

    TTAC isn’t saying that cashforguzzlers.net is a scam site. The DOT is saying that cashforguzzlers.net is a scam site. TTAC is just reporting the information they were given. Take it up with the .gov.

  • avatar
    cubic1

    i did go to this other site and it does have capital building on it, which is kind of misleading.

    It looks like they are trying hard to look like a government?

    cashforguzzlers.com should not be categorized with this other site!

    Cubic Marketing Inc.

  • avatar
    new caledonia

    cashforclunkersheadquarters.com invites you to sign up for email alerts, and asks for your email address, zip code and phone number, which is then sold to dealers.

    Online credit application, which you must agree to allow them to give to anyone.

    No privacy policy.

    It’s a scam.

  • avatar
    agenthex

    It’s a scam.

    It’s a somewhat crummy site for sure, but scam and fraud dictate a level of deception (hell, it says in giant oversized letters they’ll have a dealer contact you), which isn’t the case here.

  • avatar
    cubic1

    I have called dot and will talk with someone there in the morning. Also, I think I might owe the operator a free lunch or something because I gave him an earful.

    I will post the results of my call with them, but you are saying they contacted you right?

    Cubic Marketing Inc.

    I think Brians LOGO and link should be removed form this this “scam” story.

    Because you are basically reporting that he is performing illegal activities at his company.

    TTAC is also inferring criminal conduct by pasch by keeping him on this story.

    Cubic Marketing Inc.

    If TTAC wants business references from pasch I am sure he has about 1000 he could give you.
    Which will give you an idea of who Pash Consulting is.

  • avatar
    new caledonia

    @Agenthex –

    The “Sign Up for Email Alerts” form (zip code and phone number are required fields, btw) is at the top of the screen. You have to hit Page Down seven times at 1024 x 768 to see that their “goal is to connect consumers with certified dealers,” rather than to email you government program updates.

    I’m not saying it’s illegal, I’m saying it’s a scam.

  • avatar
    cubic1

    Dukeboy01

    In response to your comment

    I would think that TTAC would want to report accurate information.
    Not information that TTAC know might be questionable.

    TTAC seems to me to be bashing a company Pasch who runs http://www.casforguzzlers.net.

    PASCH CONSULTING DOES NOT RUN THIS SITE
    casforclunkersheadquarters.com

    that everyone on this board is referring to.

    Cubic Marketing inc.

  • avatar
    cubic1

    new caledonia :

    You talking about casforclunkersheadquarters.com

    I think
    agenthix is refering to

    http://www.casforgasguzzlers.net Brains Site

    Pasch’s is very clear about having a dealer contact them.

    Cubic Marketing

  • avatar
    agenthex

    The “Sign Up for Email Alerts” form (zip code and phone number are required fields, btw) is at the top of the screen. You have to hit Page Down seven times at 1024 x 768 to see that their “goal is to connect consumers with certified dealers,” rather than to email you government program updates.

    Right below the “Sign up for our Drive America Forward” field, there is this animated gif:

    http://www.cashforguzzlers.net/wp-content/themes/clunkers/images/GasGuzzlerQuickQuote.gif

    It explicitly says on the last frame: “we’ll have a local dealer contact you”.

    On the main page, the first news blurb reads:

    June 23, 2009 – The National Highway Transportation Administration (NHTSA) has updated their website (http://cars.gov), the only Federal website for the CARS program, to say that the cash voucher program, recently referred to by the House and Senate as “Cash for Clunkers“, will be implemented in Late July. The exact wording from the Cars.gov website advises consumers “You may want to contact your local dealer in mid-July.” This is in slight conflict with the wording of the bill that says cars purchased from July 1, 2009 – November 1, 2009 will qualify. Read Article.

    Generally the purpose of a scam like this is to deceive the user into thinking they are the “official” site for a program, which the other scam site attempts. This is not accomplished by referring to the official gov site on the first thing the user reads.

  • avatar
    agenthex

    new caledonia :

    You talking about casforclunkersheadquarters.com

    I think
    agenthix is refering to

    http://www.casforgasguzzlers.net Brains Site

    Pasch’s is very clear about having a dealer contact them.

    Yes, I read new caledonia’s first post through the email notification system, which he later edited for better context, thus the confusion.

  • avatar
    new caledonia

    @agenthex –

    Cubic1 is right that I am referring to the first site, and you are referring to the second site. Sorry for any confusion.

    That said, the second site is only a little better — it exists to benefit (paying, I assume) dealers, not consumers.

    EDIT: From our overlapping comments (I’m a slow writer) it looks like agenthex and I are in very little disagreement. Thanks for a spirited discussion. G’night.

  • avatar
    agenthex

    That said, the second site is only a little better — it exists to benefit (paying, I assume) dealers, not consumers.

    Well, such is the way of capitalism. :)

  • avatar

    Attracted by the discussion, I checked both sites.

    http://www.cashforclunkersheadquarters.com is made to look like a government website.

    Zonealarm says “Unless you trust that site, avoid entering personal information or downloading anything from it.”

    A whois query on http://www.cashforclunkersheadquarters.com returns a message from Internic: “The IP address from which you have visited the Network Solutions Registrar WHOIS database is contained within a list of IP addresses that may have failed to abide by Network Solutions’ WHOIS policy. Failure to abide by this policy can adversely impact our systems and servers, preventing the processing of
    other WHOIS requests.

    http://www.cashforclunkersheadquarters.com collects sensitive personal data, down to income, SSN, DOB etc. which could – and I’m stressing the word “could” – be used for identity theft. Good for the DOT that they warn about these sites. There can only be legal action after a crime has been committed.

    As for cashforguzzlers.net, it doesn’t try to look like a government website.

    Zonealarm issues the same warning: “Unless you trust that site, avoid entering personal information or downloading anything from it.”

    The whois entry looks legit:

    Registrant:
    Pasch Consulting Group

    2711 Centerville Road, STE 300
    PMB 112
    Wilmington, Delaware 19808
    United States

    Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
    Domain Name: CASHFORGUZZLERS.NET
    Created on: 05-May-09
    Expires on: 05-May-12
    Last Updated on: 15-May-09

    Administrative Contact:
    Pasch, Brian brian@seonj.com
    Pasch Consulting Group
    2711 Centerville Road, STE 300
    PMB 112
    Wilmington, Delaware 19808
    United States
    (732) 672-2356 Fax — (732) 936-9243

    Technical Contact:
    Pasch, Brian brian@seonj.com
    Pasch Consulting Group
    2711 Centerville Road, STE 300
    PMB 112
    Wilmington, Delaware 19808
    United States
    (732) 672-2356 Fax — (732) 936-9243

    Domain servers in listed order:
    NS1.PASCH-CONSULTING.COM
    NS2.PASCH-CONSULTING.COM

    The site doesn’t appear to collect sensitive data.

    My only advice to cubic1: If you are the CEO of an advertising agency, it would behoove you to improve your English spelling and grammar.

  • avatar
    Lumbergh21

    Bertel Schmitt:

    +1 on all points including the last.

  • avatar
    cubic1

    Bertell Schmitt

    I thought this was a blog? I write how I talk.

    I will try to perfect the art of the English language for all on this board.

    Josh
    Cubic Marketing Inc.

  • avatar
    cubic1

    Bertell Schmitt

    Thank you for doing the research you did.

    Joshua Hernandez
    Cubic Marketing Inc.
    866-462-8242

  • avatar
    Robstar

    cubic1>

    I have seen some articles and now this blog about gasguzzlers.net.

    I don’t think anyone has referred to http://gasguzzlers.net

    http://gasguzzlers.net is simply an empty/stupid portal/holding site.

    Cubic Marketing is very concerned about the news that was realease about this company Pasch Consulting (which operates cashforclunkers.net)

    Also, http://cashforclunkers.net doesn’t show anything in firefox. I don’t think you are talking about the same sites as this blog is.

  • avatar

    Robstar:

    http://cashforclunkers.net ist alive, but has occasional issues.

    Currently, OpenDNS reports:

    Hmm, cashforclunkers.net isn’t loading right now.

    The computers that run cashforclunkers.net are having some trouble. Usually this is just a temporary problem, so you might want to try again in a few minutes.

    Nameserver trace for http://www.cashforclunkers.net:

    * Looking for who is responsible for root zone and followed i.root-servers.net.
    * Looking for who is responsible for net and followed f.gtld-servers.net.
    * Looking for who is responsible for cashforclunkers.net and followed ns2.2bestcasinos.com.

    Nameservers for http://www.cashforclunkers.net:

    * ns1.2bestcasinos.com returned (NORECORDS)
    * ns2.2bestcasinos.com returned (NORECORDS)

  • avatar
    BostonNissan

    Using a word like scam is completely inappropriate with regard to cashforclunkers.net. As a dealer fighting to stay in business in the toughest economy most living americans have ever experienced, it is offensive to be convicted by such a broad sweeping negative term particularly when it is a complete falsehood.

    For those of you living under a rock for the last 5 years, Search Engine Optimization has become a vital way in which companies and persons advertise their brand or product online. Pasch Consulting shows insight in acquiring a domain that targets keywords that consumers will be searching for. Someone searching “cash for guzzlers” or “cash for clunkers” clearly wants information on the program and ultimately on how to replace that car via this program. Maybe that wasn’t clear enough – it means they want to buy a car! I hope someone can explain how that is a scam. That is ADVERTISING. I guess Coke and Pepsi and Budweiser are scamming every redsox fan at fenway park – they came to see a baseball game not get “scammed” into buying soda, food and beer” – right? And those people walking around yelling about it – there should be a criminal investigation launched to look into this. They are actually in your face yelling at you to buy stuff – WHAT A SCAM!

    This site does nothing but convey information and put a prospective consumer in touch with local – PAYING advertisers. When did advertising our products become a scam?

    To avoid confusion this post has been in regards to the cashforguzzlers.net site created by PCG – Pasch Consulting Group.

    Car dealers have a hard enough time overcoming a long history of well earned stereotypes. Let’s not propagate sensational libelous content. Be responsible and do your homework first.

    Timothy Martell
    Digital Marketing Director
    Albrecht Auto Group
    (888) 251-3813

  • avatar

    I have a question, how are we going to stimulate the economy with this bill? Most of the people driving a $3500-$4500 “clunker” can’t afford to buy a new car or have the credit to purchase a new vehicle.

    I work for a Chrysler/GM store, we’re having problems financing good people with a down payment.

  • avatar
    BostonNissan

    The fact is the cars that qualify for the program are not worth $3,500-$4,500. So this is really more of a rebate. The catch is they are getting these “undesired” vehicles off the road in the process. It is in this light the new car sales will be stimulated. Additionally, $3,500-$4,500 is enough of a down payment to help achieve financing for even those who have severe credit challenges. Particularly, with the low cost/high mpg entry level vehicles like Toyota Yaris, Nissan Versa, and Honda FIT.

    Timothy Martell
    Digital Marketing Director
    Albrecht Auto Group
    (888) 251-3813

  • avatar
    BostonNissan

    UPDATE: Brian Pasch, owner of cashforguzzlers.net, has contacted TTAC through the comments section (below) and via telephone. As a result of that conversation, Mr. Pasch is adding a disclaimer to his site and contacting the DOT to “open a dialogue.” Meanwhile, we stand by this story.

    As stated in the text, there is no official “participating dealer” program for CARS; all legal car dealers are eligible. Consumers do not have to pre-register for CARS. Any website that asks dealers or consumers to provide information for this program without making that fact clear is misleading both, as per the DOT’s interpretation.

    This update makes my argument! cashforguzzlers.net States in glowing red letters on the homepage that “This is not a government site”. Furthermore it in no way implies that consumers need to register to qualify for this program. In fact, it states, “Consumers who want the best information on their trade can qualify its eligibility on http://cars.gov.
    If you qualify, you can contact any local new car dealer yourself or we can have one call you. If you would a dealer to call you and discuss your new car purchase, complete the form on the left. On the form, fill in the car you will be trading in and indicate the car that you want to purchase.
    We’ll have a local new car dealer familar with the Car Allowance Rebate System (CARS) contact you. They will be able to assist you with your new car purchase. A local dealer will help you verify your trade-in and present you with a competitive price quote.”

    How is this misleading? I had the pleasure of speaking to Mr. Farago and he indicated that it is the DOT who is citing cashforguzzlers.net as misleading, so I cannot hold him responsible for the DOT’s shoddy research. However, based on Mr. Farago’s update, the cashforguzzlers.net site should be removed as an example because it completely follows his purported guidelines: “As stated in the text, there is no official “participating dealer” program for CARS; all legal car dealers are eligible. Consumers do not have to pre-register for CARS. Any website that asks dealers or consumers to provide information for this program without making that fact clear is misleading both, as per the DOT’s interpretation.”

    It clearly states that, “If you qualify, you can contact any local new car dealer yourself or we can have one call you.”

    This is really an example of fiscally responsible dealers who are getting their brand out there vs. ones who are asleep and not advertising. The argument that this in someway misrepresents the government or misleads the public is simply ludicrous.

    It’s like saying a Nissan Dealer who places advertisements in addition to those placed by the Factory are misrepresenting the factory. You can flower up the wording all you want but the purpose of this program (in case everyone was distracted by the sensationalism) is to SELL NEW CARS AND STIMULATE THE ECONOMY! Here we have a website attempting to aid in that regard by putting interested consumers in touch with aggressive dealers looking to sell their products.

    Is anyone else confused here? I know I am! See if you can follow the flow chart with me…

    1) Gov creates program to stimulate new car sales. (Remember folks, the goal here is to STIMULATE THE ECONOMY)
    2) Entrepreneur creates website to capture interested consumer data and put them in touch with dealers wanting to sell new cars.
    3) Entrepreneur sells advertising to dealers wanting to sell cars to interested consumers. (I believe this is called spending – people are getting paid for building a website and directing the flow of consumer interest-SUCCESS! THE ECONOMY IS BEING STIMULATED!)
    4) Consumers are contacted by dealers and the sales process begins! SUCCESS! MORE ECONOMIC STIMULATION!
    5) Blogger holds interview with DOT and concludes that this is fraud and advocates launching a criminal investigation (There goes more of your tax dollars at work!)

    The Truth organization could use this in one of their “Crazyworld” commercials. If you have half a brain, you too must be utterly baffled at this point!

    Remember I am simply referring to cashforguzzlers.net. The other site in question does implicate that consumers need to register and even goes so far as to collect social security numbers. Surely, anyone can see the distinction between these drastically different approaches.

    Timothy Martell
    Digital Marketing Director
    Albrecht Auto Group
    (888) 251-3813

  • avatar

    BostonNissan

    Mr. Martell knows full well that this post was written BEFORE Mr. Pasch made the changes to the site to which he refers. In fact, those changes were made as a direct result of this blog.

  • avatar
    Airhen

    Another fine example of the government making a mess when getting involved in the private sector.

  • avatar
    BostonNissan

    Robert Farago

    And Mr. Farago knows that their is a big difference between a site that collects information that could lead to identity theft and hides the identity of the site owner and a legitimate site who’s purpose has always been to accomplish the spirit of what the CARS program intends all while offering complete transparency. Yet he still chooses to allow a legitimate enterprise’s name be associated with words like “fraud” and “criminal investigation”. It is in this regard that I believe this article has no merit as long as cashforguzzlers.net is associated. This sends a sensational message with out the real story.

    No distinction is drawn in Mr. Farago’s article between these 2 very different sites and in our world of 30 sec sound bytes, the only thing consumers will take away from this article is “cashforclunkersheadquarters.com, cashforguzzlers.net, fraud, and criminal investigation”. A fact any journalist knows all too well. It seems irresponsible journalism has become so common place most journalists fail to see it even when it is right in front of their eyes. The fact that an article like this is counterproductive to its respective topic is unimportant to a writer. The consequence that not only Pasch Consulting but his advertisers potentially face is not considered. Maybe its not irresponsible journalism, maybe its just irresponsible. Maybe its just lack of foresight.

    Mr. Farago is simply choosing to ignore the facts for the sake of a great headline. Fortunately, he is fair in allowing our posts to bring out the entire story. Unfortunately many readers will not see the entire thread and may not be exposed to the facts included in my arguments and that of others.

    Timothy Martell
    Digital Marketing Director
    Albrecht Auto Group
    (888) 251-3813

  • avatar

    Mr. Martell neglect to mention the fact that I’ve devoted an entire post to the changes that Mr. Pasch made to his site to bring it into compliance with the DOT’s wishes. He also omits my offer to give him the right to reply in either a 250 – 300 word blog post or an 800-word editorial.

    TTAC offers any and all readers the opportunity to comment on our work, as long as the comments adhere to our no-flaming policy. Or, in this case, even when they don’t.

  • avatar
    BostonDuce

    Tim;

    Let’s get back to basics.

    What kind of a deal can you give me on a 370Z?

    Regards
    BD

    PS. I don’t need http://cashforclunkers.net/
    I have cash.

  • avatar
    BostonNissan

    Robert Farago

    I thought “Fortunately, he is fair in allowing our posts to bring out the entire story.” would have covered it. I did say you were fair!

    Also, please understand, I am passionate and I try to write with the passion I exhibit in my daily actions. I love a good argument and none is meant with any anger or ill will. By the way I just saw Brian’s post on the homepage of TTAC. So I will again say, YOU ARE FAIR! Perhaps a link to this post from the update would be completely fair given that someone encountering this article is not guaranteed to see the new article. Looks like there is a link there after all! NEVER MIND – YOU ARE THE BASTION OF FAIRNESS!

    BostonDuce:

    Happy to give you a GREAT deal on a 370Z! And we love cash! As a 350Z owner myself, I can tell you this new Z is really impressive. Look forward to speaking to you personally.

    Feel free to contact me directly at:

    Timothy Martell
    Albrecht Auto Croup
    (888) 251-3813
    or
    tmartell@marlboronissan.com

  • avatar
    kruisin66

    Perfect timing. I can now take my 99 civic in great condition with 86000 miles and its 32 mpg combined, get new Insight or Prius and have Presidential Motors pay the dealer $4500 of the purchase price. My trade should go to those less fortunate but instead will be crushed along with the 83 oldsmobiles.


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