By Justin Berkowitz
August 15, 2008 -
In the past five years, Volkswagen has had its pants around its ankles. Gas tripled in price, Al Gore invented the environment and the brand once known for frugality didn’t have U.S. products that could compete on fuel economy. Volkswagen’s diesel-powered Jetta and Passat weren’t even legal in VW-friendly California, NY and Massachusetts. After miles of regulatory legwork, VW brought one of its new generation European diesels up to fifty-state compliance. The Jetta 2.0 TDI hits dealers this fall. So is it The One?
The only change is underhood. This means the Jetta TDI looks like a regular Jetta. And that means it looks like a Corolla. Cut to the chase: this generation of VW’s best-selling product will never muster the charisma of the past model with its tidy mini-luxe styling. But it’s certainly no worse than the look of the cheese-wedge Civic or botoxed Focus. Just don’t mention the Mazda3.
The TDI’s interior is fine; it’s nice, it’s well built, it’s a list of mediocre compliments. Next?
If you’ve been car-aware since the Mark V Jetta debuted four years ago, none of this is news. Nor is the fact that VW offers a diesel engine. But while VW sold the 1.9-liter four-cylinder turbodiesel for the past several years, you may not know the 1.9’s history.
This 100 horsepower oil burner was first built in 1820. The metalsmith used bronze, and then died from boredom. Although VW has been selling the 1.9 as a car engine of late, in the 1920s it was marketed as a “Clatterynoisedervish;” a device designed exclusively for frightening pigeons. And though the 1.9 could deliver some 40+ MPG highway, it was mostly out of necessity; if you stopped for fuel, you ran the risk of your passengers refusing to get back into the car.
And now the good news: the Jetta’s new diesel engine. The TDI makes none of the deafening knocks, clanks or clapping sounds that lead you to think that you’re in a badly-disguised delivery van. It sounds like a boring luxury car inside, and only ever-so-slightly louder from the outside (at idle). The 2.0-liter common rail turbocharged oil burner makes 140 horsepower and a suck-my- particulates-Civic 236 ft-lbs of torque. For reference, the 2.0-liter turbo gas engine in this writer’s GTI only stumps-up 207 ft-lbs of twist.
Better yet, the Jetta TDI is nearly as much fun to drive as the GTI. Wipe up that nose-ejected coffee off your keyboard. In Europe, VW cranks this engine to 170 horsepower to create the GTI’s kid brother, the Golf GT.
Obviously, the diesel engine doesn’t parallel the slap-happy enthusiasm of the GTI’s mill. Nor can it rev as high; the TDI redlines at 4500 rpm. But the oil burner’s punch is smoother and more linear than its petrol-powered equivalent. There’s no slingshot effect. You just woooooosh from 30 to 60 mph without an indices of effort. Plowing through highway traffic, hammering around tight corners, and sprinting up a hill, it’s a thoroughly willing powerplant. You get a fairly quick-revving mill you want– without sacrificing the surging power you like. At any speed.
The suspension is more forgiving than in the GTI, but it’s still taut. As a result, you give up very little in terms of handling versus VW’s hot hatch. Seriously. The Jetta TDI rides a little like it sits on a safe, predictable, controllable Merc platform, but with sharp turn-in and genuine steering feedback.
Both transmission choices– the six-speed stick or the six-speed DSG (paddle shift flappy thingy with a full auto mode)– are superb options. The DSG is perfectly matched to the oil burning engine, keeping you in the meat of the powerband at all times. The cog-swapper may not surprise and delight Hondaphiles, but it’s easy enough to drop in the slot, to access the TDI’s tower of power.
Comparing the Jetta TDI dynamics with a comparably priced Civic, Corolla, Camry or Accord is like bringing a professional debt collector– with his pillowcase full of doorknobs– to a fist fight. Of course, there’s the msrp vs. mileage vs. price of diesel fuel debate. If you’re seriously crunching numbers, you likely don’t want this car. Besides, as Mr. Lang will tell you, buying any new car isn’t frugal.
My argument for the Jetta TDI is simple: at $23k it’s cheaper than a Jetta GLI, almost as much fun, and you’ve got to stop for fuel less often. Well never, obviously, and the GLI and GTI require high-test. The Jetta TDI is also rolling vindication for all those American pistonheads who pointed at Europe’s oil burners and said, see? See? But is the Jetta TDI VW’s NA’s savior? Are you kidding? They’ll sell 17 of them. But those 17 owners will be thrilled.
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August 15th, 2008 at 8:07 am
I want one! Seriously. I love my Subaru but I like the idea of the spacious cabin, 600+ miles to a tank of fuel AND being fun to drive… worth it only depends on your price for fun!
August 15th, 2008 at 8:26 am
“But the oil burner’s punch is smoother and more linear than its ICE equivalent.”
Uh, doesn’t ICE mean Internal Combustion Engine? Diesel is one too…
August 15th, 2008 at 8:39 am
Justin - no comments about observed fuel economy?
With all the controversy and VW getting its own peeps to provide numbers to counter EPA claims, I would loved to hear what you noticed.
Having said that - this car needs to be $19k not $23k.
August 15th, 2008 at 8:40 am
I agree with mxfive4. I’d love to see a little diesel (even better — wagon) under the $20k mark. I’d also like to see fuel economy reports, esp on highway cruising at various speeds. For $20k+ I’d rather have the luxury/size/fuel economy of a passat tdi. My friends wife has one and not only does it get fantastic mileage, but it is super comfortable!
August 15th, 2008 at 8:54 am
Garak :
“But the oil burner’s punch is smoother and more linear than its ICE equivalent.”
Uh, doesn’t ICE mean Internal Combustion Engine? Diesel is one too…
What WAS I thinking? My bad. Text amended.
August 15th, 2008 at 8:55 am
Isn’t it curious the writers above want a nearly perfect diesel to be under $20K. But they will give Prius $25K+ and Volt $40K+. The only true comparison here is take the small gas engine from either volks or the competition or go about $3K more for the diesel. I think it is a lot better gamble than the electric. Look the diesel will never need anything but a $75.00 starter battery, compare that to the Prius or Volt. The Prius is something like $5000 and the Volt $10,000 for a battery pack. As someone else said that means these cars are junked at the time of battery replacement. We know that the tradeoff on diesels has always been longevity over gas engines, so resale should be much higher. Also, I live in hilly country, and the pulling power of a turbo diesel is so much better then a small gas engine. You cannot simply write off this new generation of diesels as non-starters. They are not “the” answer for everyone, but they are part of a larger solution along with the electric and small gas engined cars.
August 15th, 2008 at 8:56 am
I’d give up my ‘07 Civic for one…. in a heartbeat. Too bad the local VW dealership is a joke…
August 15th, 2008 at 8:59 am
What a car, I’d trade in the Mazda3 for a TDi Sportwagen…maybe sell the old 760 too. I wonder what the ground clearance is like…because then I can forgo getting either an Escape or used XC70 for the next vehicle.
August 15th, 2008 at 9:08 am
Jerry, sorry to put a pin into your balloon (argument) about hybrid batteries, but not only have they been lasting the life of the car, the life of the car (at least for the Prius) has been 250,000 miles plus, on Canadian Prius taxicabs (miles added up over a 2-3 year timeframe, cars sold on at a very low price and replaced with other Prius hybrids). Prius is one of the most reliable cars sold today, an accomplishment which is astonishing if you consider the extreme complexity.
Now to our diesel. Just drove past a BP gas station on the way to the lake with our Newfie (dog) after work yesterday.
Regular unleaded (as used by my Prius - $21,000 up, my 2008 was $24,000 - 49 mpg observed on the computer down in the work parking lot right now) was $4.01
Diesel fuel (as used by this $24,000 Jetta) $4.74
Pretty well sums up the situation, doesn’t it?
Yes, I think that maybe 15 of the 17 buyers of these things will be happy. In fact, I used to be a fanboy of diesels and never managed to get one. I think there’s even a place for them, if folks want to buy them and since they are now clean enough to be legal in the US.
But please don’t trot out fallicies about hybrids as an argument to try to make diesel look better than they are. It’s disingenious. It simply makes it obvious that there are fewer advantages than Volkswagen and Mercedes would like, if you have to resort to attempts to trash competitive ideas to try to bolster your pre-concieved point of view.
August 15th, 2008 at 9:08 am
Nice review…Garak is right, though, a TDI motor is still an ICE, last time I checked.
Also, please forgive another nitpick, but the word is spelled “taut,” not “taught.” Unless of course, you were teaching the suspension a lesson or something. ;-)
August 15th, 2008 at 9:09 am
The suspension is more forgiving than in the GTI, but it’s still taught.
I hate to quibble words, but I think you meant “taut”. From Merriam-Webster:
Main Entry: taut
Pronunciation: ˈtȯt
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English tought, perhaps from tought, toughth fierce, tough, alteration of tough tough
Date: 14th century
1 a: having no give or slack : tightly drawn
b: high-strung, tense
2 a: kept in proper order or condition
b (1): not loose or flabby
(2): marked by economy of structure and detail
August 15th, 2008 at 9:23 am
BTW, when I test-drove a 2004 Prius (after which I put down a deposit and waiting 9 1/2 months for my 2005, now replaced with a 2008) - I didn’t just try to borrow one from the dealer. There weren’t any.
Coincidentally and luckily for me, the Enterprise rental car agency in the town where I work was a guinea pig for the Prius in rental fleets, and they had some 3 dozen of them. I finally got one to rent (had to go on a list for that too) and rented one for a weekend.
There is a VERY steep and long hill near town, on the way to my home. There’s a traffic light at the bottom. The road changes from 2 lane to 3 lane (2 lanes up hill) for this steep hill. It’s about 1/2 mile from traffic light to traffic light (at the top of the hill) and there are curves both at the bottom and top of the hill.
We were stuck at the traffic light behind both a “slowburban” and a smoking older chrysler minivan.
The light changed, the slowburban “parked” at 35 mph in the “fast” lane while the chrysler minivan struggled, smoking mightily, at about 38 mph in the “slow” lane (with me fuming about Michigan drivers not having any clue about “slow drivers stay to the right” behind both of them).
After the minivan cut-up the slowburban and pulled in front of him, we were 1/2 way up the (very steep) hill, doing 38 mph. Since the minivan pulled in front of the slowburban, I had an opening and figured - “let’s see what she’ll do” and I proceeded to put the pedal down about 90%.
We were doing 70 through the green light at the top of the hill (um, in a 55 zone) and blew the doors off everyone. To say I was shocked at the power & torque of electric motors would be the understatment of the day.
BTW the combined maxima torque of the current Prius is 335 Ft Lb of torque. THREE HUNDRED THIRTY FIVE FOOT POUNDS.
So much for diesel torque.
August 15th, 2008 at 9:23 am
I guess you guys taut him a lesson. Tautalogically speaking…
Text amended.
August 15th, 2008 at 9:25 am
Justin: great review, and (belated) congrats on your promotion to ME. I think the combo of this engine and the wagon would be damn near perfect.
Unfortunately (or fortunately), the thursty/clunky 5 cylinder in the base Jetta makes the diesel seem so much better. If VW offered a reasonably efficient 4 cylinder gasser (below the GLI/GTI), the diesel would not look too hot (especially from a value proposition).
Anybody know if the Mark VI Golf (it’s not a Rabbit, I don’t care what VW says) will get anything other than the 5cyl gas engine in the base models?
August 15th, 2008 at 9:28 am
3K premium to buy, 20% better efficiency, diesel costs 20% more. The only way this makes economic sense is if you drive a helluvalot all the time, everyday, forever.
August 15th, 2008 at 9:30 am
Good review overall, except for the typical slow diesel jokes that aren’t funny. VW will sell way more than 17 of these things. They’ll sell every unit that’s allocated to dealers without a problem. And the 1.9 isn’t a bad engine, I’ve been driving a Jetta TDI for 5 years now and still love the engine. I have a VE rotary pump engine in my car, and it has a decent amount of power. My parents have a 1.9 Pump duse 2005 Jetta, and it’s even better. The new 2.0 litre has enough torque that it’ll turn your new tires into racing slicks within days.
I got 51 MPG on a recent long trip with the A/C on most of the way. Hopefully the new engine will fare as well, or better. It’s just too bad about the current body style.
August 15th, 2008 at 9:35 am
Mr. Farago:
Sorry to correct your correction, but I believe it is “tautOlogically,” not tauAlogically.
Of course, I never any spelinn or gramor mistakes in my posts make …
;-)
August 15th, 2008 at 9:40 am
rob:
The bear is chasing me today.
August 15th, 2008 at 9:59 am
Come on Justin, what about your mileage with this thing?
VW and the EPA have some very different ideas about just how fuel efficient this thing is and it would have really helped us here if you let us know what your results were.
Is VW blowing smoke out of their a$$ or what?
For this model it ALL comes down to the fuel mileage! If it is not as good as VW is claiming this is NOT a 4 star car. The advantages over a regular gas power Jetta do NOT justify its much higher price and the regular Jetta is NOT a 4 star car.
The regular Jetta is no slouch in the torque department with a 177 ft-lbs to motivate a 3200 lb car. It also has a 30hp advantage. At the end of the day the gas engine will be far more fun to drive than the oil burner.
Give us the numbers!
August 15th, 2008 at 10:04 am
Failure rate on hybrid batteries is (thus far, at least) vanishingly small. So the whole “you’ll have to spend $8000 every few years on a new battery” claim is a paper tiger, unless the numbers change radically in the future.
http://tinyurl.com/65qjz8
In any case, the nice thing about diesel vs. hybrid is that diesels tend to return good mileage even if you thrash/enjoy them, while hybrids seem to be much more dependent on driving style.
Plus, for heavy highway use, diesel should return better MPG than a hybrid (I get 40 Interstate MPG in my hybrid Camry with the cruise set at 75), though the higher cost of diesel muddies the advantage.
Choice is good, and I hope VW can regain its efficiency mojo and play in the high-MPG market. The 5-cyl Rabbit and Jetta are a joke (the turbo DSGs are much more interesting).
August 15th, 2008 at 10:08 am
Nice car but the Problem is.
There’s a TURBO in it.
You will never know when that turbo is going to BREAK and especially it is a Volkswagen Turbo.
149 hp with almost 250 of torque is kind of scary.
it must be howling on 5000 rpm engine noise.
August 15th, 2008 at 10:10 am
Jerry, sorry to put a pin into your balloon (argument) about hybrid batteries, but not only have they been lasting the life of the car, the life of the car (at least for the Prius) has been 250,000 miles plus, on Canadian Prius taxicabs (miles added up over a 2-3 year timeframe, cars sold on at a very low price and replaced with other Prius hybrids)
Not completely true, while the batteries have indeed lasted the life (to date) of most hybrids, there was a government report on their own hybrid fleet that indicated the batteries do slowly lose capacity with age with the corresponding impact to the overall efficiency of the vehicle. This was linked here sometime within the last year and maybe some fellow member can remember where to dig up the evidence. That being said, the Prius and other hybrids shouldn’t need replacement batteries within the first 5 years of their life. Longer term ownership does carry a risk of a siginificant maintenance cost.
August 15th, 2008 at 10:21 am
Right you are brettc on the “sell 17 of them” line…The local V Dub dealer pre-sold every allocated unit for 2008 with a required $500 deposit BEFORE list price was even released…They’ll sell like hotcakes aka pancakes…Great real world solution to $4/gas…and also typical panic reaction but that is another topic. My son has a 2006 Rabbit aka Golf and even with the 2.5 “John Deere” engine, he gets 23-25 mpg around town with available torque that Civic and Corolla only dream about…The “Audubon for All” campaign is accurate as well: VWs are great road cars…This new Jetta TDI would be an awesome cross country cruiser…and require very few stops at the diesel pumps in the process.
August 15th, 2008 at 10:26 am
Sounds like an intriguing economical little car. I am in the market for a second car, and really want something tolerably roomy and very frugal. The Prius is an obvious choice. This VW could get my attention if I thought VWs poor reliability (coupled with high repair costs) had been laid to rest. But as far as I know, it hasn’t.
August 15th, 2008 at 10:36 am
TTAC Readers, you want the numbers, you got them. Real, observable numbers from several different testing sources (Popular Mechanics, Canadian Driver, real drivers, etc… and ME!)
2006 Jetta TDI 1.9L 5spd manual (My own)
Observed City - 36mpg
Observed Highway - 42mpg (75mph), 47 (60-65mph)
Race Day - 22mpg
2009 Jetta TDI 2.0L (both transmissions)
Observed City - 32-34mpg
Combined Cycle - 35-36mpg
Highway - 39-41mpg
August 15th, 2008 at 10:37 am
I test drove one of these a couple of weeks ago and really liked it. I might have waited to get one but when the sales rep told me that they are charging a $4,000 markup for the TDI version, I went with a different Jetta. Because of that, I bought the Wolfsburg with the 2.0T even though it requires premium. At least it gets better gas mileage than my old G35 coupe.
August 15th, 2008 at 10:37 am
I280 and the Ohio Turnpike. Diesel at $4.09 today. Just about time to get the 1985 W126 out of hibernation. (The one with the original turbo that’s just fine after 23 years.)
August 15th, 2008 at 10:40 am
My folks were recently THIS CLOSE to buying one. They ended up with a Passat 2.0t DSG instead (more room, options).
But this came only after my dad’s frank discussion with the German head mechanic at his local dealership. This guy is a straight shooter and my dad has purchased 4 or 5 other cars from this establishment (20+ VWs lifetime).
The mechanic told him off-the-record that the new tdi has backpressure issues, due in part to the downstream particulate filter. He said the engines tended to be fine for those driving 25k+ miles a year on the highway, but that city driving tended to cause the engine trouble…in addition to preventing the cost/benefit ratio to work out in your favor.
I’m still a fan, so I found this news a bit sad. I guess the economics are just not for me, especially with electro-mechanical kinks yet to be worked out.
August 15th, 2008 at 10:40 am
@whatdoiknow1: I intentionally didn't include MPG for this car in the review. Why? Because this isn't a competitor for the Prius, and the diesel versus economical gas versus hybrid debate make my face hurt. Anyone that would look at the Prius will not like the Jetta TDI. At all. It will not make a slight bit of sense to them. This new Jetta TDI is a Volkswagen GLI alternative that gets better mileage than the GLI and it cheaper than the GLI. PS - I observed 36 mpg driving the snot out of it, all in town and on B roads. Did not take a long highway trip, so cannot give you absolute best numbers unfortunately.
August 15th, 2008 at 10:42 am
39 MPG sounds pretty awesome. Now, if only Americans got the same tax breaks on Diesel fuel that the Europeans do.
Bring over the Polo and the Touran, Volkswagen! PLEASE!
August 15th, 2008 at 10:47 am
CMK
Thanks for the reminder…this car was actually just approved a couple weeks ago for nearly $2k in federal tax credits for buyers!
Probably worth considering to offset the price.
August 15th, 2008 at 10:48 am
Holy torque Batman! If only there were some hope that this vehicle would be any more reliable than any other VW product.
August 15th, 2008 at 10:56 am
Justin,
Agreed, this whole diesel v. hybrid debate is taking years off my life! Both will be around for a long time, both have significant advantages and disadvantages. You are exactly right though, in this case, these two cars are not comparable, a Jetta may look like a Toyota, but 2 seconds behind the wheel, blindfolded and drunk you’d still be able to tell the difference
August 15th, 2008 at 10:59 am
Justin,
I respectfully disagree (as opposed to disrespectfully disagreeing) with your statement that this car is not a competitor for the Prius.
Their price point, excellent mileage figures, and 4 door body style make them natural competitors. I understand what you’re saying in that the VW is more of a driver’s car and the Toyota is more reliable, but one would wonder if indeed these cars will be cross shopped.
We’ll see.
August 15th, 2008 at 10:59 am
I’ll take the wagon diesel thanks with a side of 4motion.
August 15th, 2008 at 11:06 am
There is no comparison between this car and a Prius. Totally different purpose. Who cares if the prius has 335ft-lbs of torque? No prius will ever see a track, auto-x, or take a tight turn quickly. You could call the TDI an enthusiast car, you could also call the Prius an appliance.
August 15th, 2008 at 11:07 am
I just don’t think diesel is the savior everyone wants it to be. For those who don’t know oil refining, you can only get so much diesel fuel from a barrel of oil, which isn’t much. Same applies to gasoline but it’s easier to get more of that from a barrel. Europe uses more diesel than gasoline so they sell the unwanted gasoline to the States where we can use it up and helps supress the price.
Switching the USA over to a diesel fleet simply cannot happen - there isn’t enough oil out there to refine. That’s why I’d much rather see the diesel fuel used where it makes the most sense - farm & construction machinery, heavy trucks and boats.
Seems like such a waste to use diesel fuel to shuttle around trixies in their jettas when we’ve got plenty of gasoline to burn that isn’t needed for important work. If you want high mileage, buy a hybrid, Honda & Toyota have much better reliability numbers that Volkswagen.
August 15th, 2008 at 11:08 am
We were doing 70 through the green light at the top of the hill (um, in a 55 zone) and blew the doors off everyone. To say I was shocked at the power & torque of electric motors would be the understatment of the day.
BTW the combined maxima torque of the current Prius is 335 Ft Lb of torque. THREE HUNDRED THIRTY FIVE FOOT POUNDS.
Euhm…
First of all concerning driving Prii up hills I’ve read other anecdotal evidence stating that it’s less then impressive, but I suppose it is very much dependant on the slope and longevity of the ascent.
More importantly, I do suppose you are aware that that ‘official’ max torque figure is just a hypothetical figure, because under driving the (combined) powerplant will never near generate that amount of torque.
IMHO, the best way to assess the amount of real life torque delivered is to time 30-55 and 55-80 sprints. Aside from any other issues, I at least bet that in comparable gears the TDI will crush the Prius by a mile.
August 15th, 2008 at 11:12 am
Rspasite said “In any case, the nice thing about diesel vs. hybrid is that diesels tend to return good mileage even if you thrash/enjoy them, while hybrids seem to be much more dependent on driving style.”
Totally accurate. As an owner of a Prius and prior owner of a Prius, I concur 100%.
Also, the other down-side of the (current gen.) Prius for nations which insist upon force-feeding non-gasoline to the buying public, I regularly see a 15% decline in MPG on E10 in the Prius, and while this is in line with prior testing on virtually every other car I’ve tested since 1979, it’s highly disappointing (especially given two salient facts; 1) that there is only ONE fuel station in my area which now sells pure gasoline, thankfully only about 8 miles out of the way and 2) on my wife’s 2007 Sonata four cylinder, the MPG drop on E10 is only 6%).
However, diesels don’t get off scot-free here, either, given that I’m now reading that Biodiesel mixed with petro-diesel fuel is providing for fewer MPG, along with adding the the number of breakdowns in cold weather (i.e. the idiots in charge of Minnesota demanding higher concentrations of bio- in their diesel combined with super-cold winter temps).
Intentionally mis-fuelling vehicles is not a good thing, but even worse when mandated by governments. Especially when said governments are run by imbeciles.
August 15th, 2008 at 11:18 am
Still waiting for the A8 4.0L twin turbo V8 diesel, or at least a Euro-spec 3.0L V6.
2.0L TDI? Yawn. Adequate is not good enough to get me to buy a diesel, it has to be stupendously powerful (ie torquey and quick) and sip fuel like a much smaller engine. See my list above for what I mean.
August 15th, 2008 at 11:20 am
From the review, this sounds like a really fun-to-drive, four door sedan that actually seats four, that doesn’t scream “I’m speeding.” Perfect!
So why is everyone hung up on the Prius vs diesel thing? Geez. No one has a problem with the G37 getting lousy mileage, but if you offer a sedan that gets good mileage it’s automatically a loser because you might get better mileage in a Prius?
Personally, I’d love to give it a spin. It sounds awesome. Yes, the VW reliability thing adds a few thousand to the price for the extended warranty, but fun handling cars with great powertrains that get good mileage just don’t come along very often.
And should be given at least a passing nod from pistonheads!
August 15th, 2008 at 11:27 am
JJ, what was theoretical about my 70 mph swing through that green light at the top of Green Hill near Traverse City, Michigan with a starting speed some 1/4 mile away of 38 mph? It’s a pretty steep grade, and gets steeper about 1/2 way up, just before I started “nailing” it.
Extreme acceleration on an uphill takes TORQUE and a lot of it.
Torque makes acceleration. (Prius: 0-60 in 10 to 10.5 seconds per multiple tests since 2004). In all likelihood, this is actually LIMITED by the computer (traction control) since so much torque would essentially simply shred the front tires if not controlled.
Horsepower makes top speed. (Prius: 106 mph).
I like my Prius. But I’m not against all the other solutions out there.
I don’t believe there is ONE solution, or ONE future motor fuel. I think we’re soon going to be done with the “gasoline reciprocating engine” era - and we’ll have to adjust to alternatives, and several of them.
In fact, I was considering the idea of a Honda Accord diesel in addition to our Prius (given that I don’t like Volkswagen’s infamous unreliability - sorry) when it comes out. But given that my wife’s Sonata can tow our little pop-up camper (which the Prius cannot), and that the E10 mpg differential is pretty low with the Sonata, and that the diesel Accord would PROBABLY cost me $5000-$8000 more than a new Sonata 4 cyl., as a guess, and given that diesel fuel is 73 cents a gallon higher here than gasoline - the math doesn’t add up. Even so, I hope Honda do sell the diesel for those folks who wish to have that option.
Plus as someone else mentioned, there is the problem of not having sufficient diesel fuel capacity in North America, which stems from a different refinery technique used on this side of the pond (which results in more gasoline and less diesel per gallon of crude oil than does the European method of refining). In fact, Europe has been so hell-bent on diesels, they’ve had excess gasoline to sell on the world market for years now, and America has tended to buy it.
August 15th, 2008 at 11:38 am
Man I really wish VW would fix their quality problems and horrid dealers. Reading reviews like this, riding and my brothers TDI he had for a few months and just generally liking VW driving dynamics makes me want to get one, but I wont touch the brand in it’s current form. Jeez I wont even take my Subaru to the VW/Subaru dealer 5 miles from our house because they are crooks who don’t know what they are doing. I would rather take my car 80 miles away and know they aren’t going to screw it up.
Are they offering the TDI and both trannies in all the VW’s they sell here? IF I were to consider getting one it would have to be a Golf, I hated the Wolfsburg loaner we had for a week last year, it was a horrible driving car and dangerous in wet conditions.
August 15th, 2008 at 11:51 am
I’ll stick with my GLI, thanks. It’s quick, fast, economical, AND reliable (71K miles and counting…)
August 15th, 2008 at 11:52 am
Justin Berkowitz :
August 15th, 2008 at 10:40 am
@whatdoiknow1: I intentionally didn’t include MPG for this car in the review. Why? Because this isn’t a competitor for the Prius, and the diesel versus economical gas versus hybrid debate make my face hurt. Anyone that would look at the Prius will not like the Jetta TDI. At all. It will not make a slight bit of sense to them. This new Jetta TDI is a Volkswagen GLI alternative that gets better mileage than the GLI and it cheaper than the GLI. PS - I observed 36 mpg driving the snot out of it, all in town and on B roads. Did not take a long highway trip, so cannot give you absolute best numbers unfortunately.
Nevermind the Prius or any other hybrid what I care about is if this thing actually has any real advantage in the real world. Personally I do not see this as an alternative to a GLI/ GTI. Anyone interested in a GLI aint gonna be happy with only 140hp. The engine characteristics of the diesel are just not enjoyable enough and the price advantage is not signifcant enough either. I think it is begging the issue to compare downward from a GLI when the correct comparison to to compare upward from a base model Jetta were the price difference IS very significant.
In a nutshell if the Jetta TDI is not managing a solid 40mpg it quickly become a “what’s the point” car. VW already know this, that is why they needed to publish their own “independent” mileage figures.
The biggest issue with diesels in the USA is simply one of hassle! Do the benefits of owning a diesel powered car out-weight the extra hassles of owning a diesel.
August 15th, 2008 at 11:58 am
Minor quibble. Al Gore didn’t invent the environment. He does, however, know everything, absolutely everything, about it. And knows it for the next 100 years, too! Why, its just amazing….
PS - Himself doesn’t like your stinky sooty rattlecans. That is all.
August 15th, 2008 at 12:03 pm
drifter
Re: quickness
My dad’s comment was “It’s quick–not quite R32 quick, but still quick” (R32 is his daily driver)
He guessed about 8 seconds to 60mph in the Jetta. The old model was around 11+ seconds. Keep in mind the new engine was not derived from the old one. Completely different beast, aimed more at driveability/smoothness than economy (like the 1.9 was)
August 15th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
@whatdoiknow1:
I see what you’re saying, but I still have to stick to my guns that this Jetta is a superb all arounder.
I love my GTI desperately, and would happily consider this alternative.
The acceleration off the line is great - about 8 seconds 0-60, the at-speed acceleration is even better. The economy is strong, even if it’s not close to Prius numbers.
But it’s so much more fun than the non-hybrids offered at $21,990 that I can’t really justify them. And considering the increase in mileage and the tax credit, the extra fuel cost and extra price is probably a wash or close enough to it.
In other words, I doubt this would be any cheaper to buy and run than a comparably priced car. But it is a hell of a lot more fun than most of them.
August 15th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
I think alot of people are overlooking the purpose of this type of car in their hunt for paper machinations and those lies, damn lies, and statistics.
A current generation prius can beat this type of car in the MPG war and cost per mile war, sure. Except, wait. If you are a highway tycoon, the Prius excels (and accels) less in comparison. It’s more of a city car, where it can utilize battery only operation.
Hence why a BMW 520d received better gas mileage than a current generation Prius in a long road trip in Europe. (Do a search for it, I’m not going to right now).
This type of machine, being a 4-door standard sedan diesel, is about a few things:
1. Better Fuel economy - Lots of folks like to quote the current price of diesel as a reason it’s not long-term efficient. Well, since we are looking at the long-term….why don’t you look at diesels price over the long-term as well. Oils slid $30 in the past few weeks….personally, I think it’s going to stabilize around $100 a barrel. This alone will help reduce the disparity in prices. If more automakers bring over diesels (likely), then more refining capacity will likely be added in the future, or more refining switched to diesel, which will help quell the price disparity in the long-term.
Also, Diesels tend to do better in real-world terms vs. hybrids, which seem to do worse. If you want to cruise at 75mph and not worry about bursts of acceleration, Diesel fuel economy might be more up your alley.
2. These things make really nice power at engine speeds most people are puttering around at. When I’m at 3000 rpms in my 06 Civic SI, my car makes roughly 73 HP (HP = accelerative ability of the car) at the flywheel. The diesel, OTOH, makes almost twice as much HP at the same engine speed.
And it makes it quickly, without fuss. So the diesel will provide a much more satisfying in-gear low RPM surge in power.
Personally, I hope this trend continues. Acura is slated to bring over a new diesel engine into their TSX line-up….which if they refine the front end of the car, might make for a very tasty package at ~180-200 HP and ~300 lb/ft of torque.
BMW is bringing over the 335d at some point….
If this continues, you’ll find out why diesels are so much fun.
And if you doubt that, then go drive a Prius and a Jetta diesel and tell me which one a car-guy/gal would prefer to drive on a daily basis.
Joe
P.s. I am looking forward to the new-gen Prius arriving, as it’s supposed to have ~160 HP and more handling prowess…but we’ll see.
August 15th, 2008 at 12:36 pm
Justin-
To your point about acceleration, I think people focus too much on the 0-60 and 1/4 mile times….those are somewhat dissapointing in a diesel.
But compare a 50-70 or 40-60 in-gear pull time….the type of thing you are actually likely to do on a daily basis.
Just a basic primer on torque vs. HP:
Torque is the twisting force an engine can generate
HP is really a measure of the car’s acceleration
HP is simply a function of torque multiplied by engine RPMs.
So if you want to compare two vehicles and their specific acceleration at a given engine speed, then do this calculation:
Engine speed (rpms) x torque output at that engine speed / 5252
You will get the HP output the engine is creating at that engine speed. And this will tell you the accelerative capability of that engine.
Of course, acceleration is then aided or muted by vehicle weight and gearing…but you’ll get the gist.
Joe
P.s. That’s one of the reasons the BMW 335i is so bad-ass….look at the freaking HP it makes at 2000 or 2500 rpms compared to it’s naturally aspirated rivals.
August 15th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
What would be nice is if all the other manufacturers started selling common rail diesels here too.
I’m not a huge V-Dub fan, mostly because of their dealer network, but hats off to them for at least offering a decent alternative for those who like diesels. And hybrid battery life questions aside, no one can argue the longevity of a diesel engine.
I own 3 turbo diesels. 1 is a 5.9L Cummins in my Dodge Ram. It’s just over 220,000 miles, with nothing but routine maintenance. (Lot’s of issues with the Dodge itself, but the Cummins has been flawless)
The other 2 are in my boat. 6 cylinder Yanmars that are approaching 8000 hours. Marine engines tend to be run at a much higher load than car engines, usually at least 75 or 80%. At the car equivalent of 400,000 to 500,000 miles, mine are still running perfectly.
Now here’s where I think it gets interesting. I run bio diesel in both the truck and the boat. I started off running store bought B10 and B20 in the Ram, and noticed a slight drop in mpg, about 1/2 to 1 mpg vs petro diesel. But there was a huge decrease in all the “bad” diesel characteristics; smoke, smell, clatter. The engine just ran better and cleaner.
Once the warranty was up I tried some B50, and then some B100. It was another vast improvement in the overall behavior of the engine. MPGs down about 1 1/2 to 2 MPG vs straight petro diesel, but livability up immeasurably.
I have a 1/4 share of a biodiesel processor, and my partners and I average $1.05 to $1.20 per gallon total cost for making our B100. It’s shockingly easy to do, and a great feeling knowing I’m not contributing to the latest round of record profits for ExxonMobil.
Now I know the average gear head, let alone the average soccer mom will never even think about making biodiesel, but what I think would be an interesting angle for VW is to market the TDis to the Greenie Weenies who buy hybrids as a fashion statement. (Look at ME, dammit, I’m saving the world, and you’re not.Love me, LOVE ME…..) Maybe give them a free set of biodiesel processor plans with the car, or set up some processor co-ops around the country.
Of course, they’d have to completely change the body style, so everyone could tell at a glance what a good eco citizen was driving by.
The studies I’ve read suggest it would take more cultivated land dedicated to fuel production than we currently have dedicated to food production to switch the whole country over to B100. But their ability to use bio fuels certainly makes diesels an interesting step in the attempt to get off foreign oil.
August 15th, 2008 at 12:47 pm
I’m still recovering from shock after reading a Diesel-positive article on TTAC.
–chuck
August 15th, 2008 at 12:49 pm
Interesting. That’s about exactly what I get in the Camry hybrid, though I do about 2MPG better in stop-and-go.
And the Camry hybrid has astounding torque in the 40-80MPH range. Passing power is impressive, helped by the CVT. Off the line, though, it’s nothing special.
Of course, the Jetta looks like a lot more fun. The Camry’s handling is theoretical at best.
August 15th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
vw is claiming that the new tdi qualifies for the $1300 tax credit, so figure it more in the 22k range when it’s all said and done.
and for the difference in diesel vs. gas cost, vw has approved this engine to run on upto B20 blend, so i’ve you’ve mixing in 20% home brew diesel, you’re suddenly a few cents below 4.00 a gal. (when basing road diesel at $4.75 per a gallon as previously compared). i’m not saying doing such bio-brewing is for everyone, and less then 1 % of buyers will create such a blend. but it’s an option.
i for one will wait for the sportwagon version to come out.
i’ll also note that if this engine same gains from a chip and injector tips anywhere near the same manner that it predecessor did that 180-190hp and 300lb-ft won’t be out of the realm of expectations. (i’d strongly consider a clutch upgrade at that point)
August 15th, 2008 at 1:20 pm
Warning: the following applies to the Jetta TDI that was sold in Canada to mid-2007. We have a few in the company fleet and I’ve spent some time in them.
Yes, but the powerband is so narrow and the redline is so damn low you don’t get a lot of time to enjoy it. It’s like the bizarro version of the RX-8, Celica GTS or Integra Type-R: instead of the power showing up north of 6500rpm and going to ~8000, it’s there from about 1200 and wheezes out well before the 4500rpm redline.
You have to shift, a lot, to have fun in this car. I’ve had Golfs in Europe and it was pretty much shift-shift-shift all the time. With VW’s sort of ropey shifter, that’s not a good thing.
That said, equipped with a six-speed automatic it’s a great daily driver and the mileage is good. It’s comfortable to sit in for long hauls, too.
The batteries and hybrid system have an extensive warranty, and Toyota pays a significant recycling bounty on battery packs, so it’s not quite as much of a hit as people think.
Personally, I’d take my chances with the Prius’ potential battery over the Volkswagen’s, well, potential everything issues.
August 15th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
Went to my local VW dealer cause I wanted a TDI Sportswagen to replace my 4Runner. He has sold out his stock of 09’s sight unseen. $4000 down to get on a list in case of cancellations and oh he didn’t order any sticks…..because Americans don’t want stick wagons….DOH!!!!!!!
August 15th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
Gas is back down below 3.50 and below 3.40 at some stations here in Houston, good luck getting a premium for a diesel engine.
August 15th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
Hmm.
I drive an 06 GTI and have had zero issues at 33K. Had a 04 R32 with zero issues at 44K. My wife’s 03 Passat, that’s another story but anyway, I drove one of the dealer demos last week. I was blown away by it! I couldnt believe the “free revyness” of the engine. If you didnt look at the tach to see the revs, you would not know it is a diesel. Perhaps I too like the softer but not too soft suspension.
One thing, the TDi DSG does not have paddle shifters. Really too bad. As a 35 year manual tranny driver, I hate using an auto gear selector to shift even if it is a DSG. Would rather have the paddles.
August 15th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
Love the styling analysis.
I need to get pricing for these into TrueDelta’s pricing database ASAP. Probably in next few days. Not just to price them, but because until the powertrain data is entered owners can’t submit data on the car to TrueDelta’s Fuel Economy Survey.
Capt. Solo’s numbers suggest that the new diesel might be less economical than the old one. But for 50 more horses, probably worth the trade-off.
Reliability has actually been decent for the MkV in TrueDelta’s reliability survey. With the MkIV, the TDIs require quite a few more repairs than the gas engines, but owners also tend to drive far more miles. The extra miles likely explain the extra repairs.
Can always use more participants:
http://www.truedelta.com/reliability.php
August 15th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
the only reason i’d go with the stick over the dsg is the $400 flush the dsg requires roughly ever 30k. in the grand scheme of things it’s not a big deal (breaks down to about the cost of oil changes per a mile) but expensive maintaince is expensive maintaince any way you slice it.
August 15th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
I hear ya Cap’t…The maint is steep. Fortunately there are some good VW dealers in the Chicago area where I am. I’ve read a lot about the Borg-Warner (yep, they came up with it) DSG and it actually has been very reliable. In the R32 and Gti the thing rocks!
August 15th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
Quote from SWA737: “…and a great feeling knowing I’m not contributing to the latest round of record profits for ExxonMobil.”
What exactly would you expect a commodities company to do when their commodity’s value quadruples in value over a few years?
If you weren’t complaining about their margins (8-10%) at $30 a barrel, why are you complaining about their margins at $120-130 a barrel?
Joe
August 15th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
Subaru is bringing over “the world’s first boxer diesel” as well, in their legacy platform. Not sure when that is slated to arrive though.
Personally, I think I’d choose the Legacy platform over the VW.
Joe
August 15th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Berk: “… Al Gore invented the environment …”
Enough of this, already.
Gore Simply Knows How to Read - and Does So
August 15th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
But the problem is Diesel is more expensive than Gasoline.
August 15th, 2008 at 2:14 pm
So, uh, how about a diesel hybrid?
August 15th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
VW is hard at work on gas and diesel hybrids. It is very difficult to tune a hybrid (with stop-start) and still get PZEV level emissions. Even though the US has low(er) sulfur fuel now, ours is still 15% higher than Europe’s. NOx and CO2 emissions spike’s are hard to get rid of. Plus VW of America is very conservative when it comes to what they sell in the the US.
August 15th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
Lack of a wagon (what about Passat wagon?) or at least Rabbit/Golf, and VW’s ill reputation for reliability will limit the market for this thing.
VW dealers’ charging $4K markup may last for a short while, then the street prices will drop below MSRP.
August 15th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
To contribute to the Diesel vs Hybrid debate check out this from Fifth Gear.
http://fifthgear.five.tv/jsp/5gmain.jsp?mnk=611&featureid=1196&description=Toyota+Prius+vs+Jeep+Patriot%3A+the+great+MPG+test
August 15th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
I have been driving a 2006 VW Jetta TDI for nearly 2 years now. During that time I have averaged 43 MPG… that is at speeds above the posted limit. Three other people can also ride with me. Oh yeah, I can pull a boat or small trailer too.
Tell me I am unsafe if you must, but driving with traffic in great comfort sure beats the hell out of cramping into a Prius and following along in the left lane.
Consider this, I fill my tank once every two weeks for $65 while my brother spends over $120 in his truck once a week.
This new Jetta TDI is on my wish list… too bad my current one will last well into the next decade. Ha, ha.
August 15th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
“Subaru is bringing over “the world’s first boxer diesel” as well, in their legacy platform. Not sure when that is slated to arrive though.
Personally, I think I’d choose the Legacy platform over the VW.”
joe, i’m a subaru guy and a pancake diesel engine will make mountains of torque, but redline on a flat-deisel engine is going to feel scary low. i’d love for subaru to prove me wrong on this but i doubt it will enjoy breathing above 4k.
August 15th, 2008 at 3:08 pm
I’m intrigued by the 2.0TDI engine, but the Jetta’s exterior styling makes my eyes bleed — it has not a single graceful exterior line. Add to that VW’s dismal dealer network and repair costs, and it starts seeming like a good powertrain in search of a car.
August 15th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
All else being equal a 2007 emissions compliant diesel is going to be 3-5% less efficient than than the same engine with 2001-2006 emissions standards.
If you are doing mostly stop n go city driving you will be constantly filling up the soot filter and burning fuel to clean it out. It will be much happier with regular spurts of highway driving.
The Cummins ISMs in the Internationals at my work were quite troublesome getting the DPF to clear until we leaned to take them on the freeway and rev the engine high for ~10 miles on a hill.
While I have to give VW props for offering the only car based oil burner for the USDM I’ll pass based on their spotty dealership network and high prices.
I’ll happily lease a diesel from Subaru or Honda.
August 15th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Uh, the reason people keep comparing this to the Prius is that every story about the Prius ends up with two dozen comments from people who are sure that The Next Diesel is Gonna Beat The Prius Good!
August 15th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
I’m not a particularly big fan of diesels or hybrids, but one thing I will agree with is that the batteries in hybrids are a real problem.
Everytime it comes up, someone runs forward screaming about taxi cab applications and 250k mile durability. Ok, that’s fine. I take no issue with that. High duty mileage in a relatively short time isn’t so much what I’d be concerned about, but rather time and environment.
If all those Prius’s are still happily churning around after 10 years and 150k + miles with factory battery packs, then let’s talk.
To make matters even worse, once the batteries are toast, they are done. It’s not like rebuilding a transmission or replacing a head gasket. We’re talking a huge, dealer only item that can’t really be salvaged after a certain timeframe. Think about that. Not everybody gets a new car in 3 or 5 years. Especially not cheap folks.
I’ll openly admit I might be wrong. But I am waiting patiently to see how it pans out.
August 15th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
Those nickel batteries are devastatingly to the environment. Buy clean diesel instead :)
But seriously, the whole argument about these things vs. a Prius at this point is moot….Hybrids are advancing, and the next gen prius will be bigger and badder in every area…resulting in diesels developing further…
etc. etc. until we all drive hovercraft.
And those will be powered by tiny nanobots which power themselves on oxygen and break down water for it’s hydrogen byproduct.
captdownshift - Is there something about a flat engine revving high that I don’t know?
My 08 Legacy GT has no problem with it’s 6500 rpm redline…and plenty of Porsches will rev to 7000 rpms and beyond without a problem.
The Subaru engine is already out and has been driven, you can read about it in a variety of places. It’s been pretty well raved about, though I think it’ll do better in a new platform rather than the current Legacy.
Joe
August 15th, 2008 at 4:27 pm
psquared:
The Prius has more interior space than a Jetta.
August 15th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
Slare, at least your FUD listened to the first point. Too bad it missed some others - namely that the first gen US Prius (second gen overall - the ones that were Echo-sized) had similar batteries (not as good, but similar chemistry) and they’ve lasted just fine - pushing 8-9 years by now.
August 15th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
You’re wrong now. :)
I’d say that’s a pretty good benchmark. Heavy-duty use (lots of charge/discharge cycles) is much harder on batteries than light-duty use over time. That the Prius is surviving that with little degredation in performance is an important statistic that speaks well of the technology.
And the environmental impact? Yes, nickel smelting isn’t clean, but neither is petroleum refinement–never mind that most nickel does not get made into batteries. And, unlike burned oil and gas, you can recycle batteries.
Not a lot of cars make it that far without some loss of functionality. Many European, and most luxury models, if not perfectly maintained, will rot incredibly quickly and an engine or transmission major repair, replacement or rebuild on one of those cars is very, very expensive. Maybe not battery-pack expensive, but so close as to be effectively equivalent, especially for someone who does their own wrenching.
I don’t know what part of the world you’re from, but rebuilding a modern automatic transmission in North America or Europe is not exactly cheap or easy. Certainly, it’s harder than swapping out a few batteries.
If you don’t do your own work, an engine or automatic transmission failure is as bad or worse than a hybrid battery replacement, and it’s not like a battery that can’t hold much charge will make the car undriveable–it’ll just be slow. How slow? Drive a Prius hard until the battery is flat and you’ll know exactly how it will behave.
If your engine seizes or your transmission will not shift, your car is dead in the water. Not slow: dead.
The griping about hybrids and batteries sounds exactly like the griping about fuel injection from 15-25 years ago. Fuel injection was supposed to make cars expensive to repair for pros and impossible for normal folk. It was inherently unreliable, they said, and too complex.
And you know what, when it was done badly (ie, by Europeans or Americans), it certainly did suck. But when it was done well (by the Japanese) it beat the snot out of owning a carbuerated car, both in terms of drivability and reliability. No more fiddling with a cranky carb, the EFI system “just worked”. Sure, some old gearheads still preferred screwing with the damn things, but for the rest of us (ie, 95% of drivers) EFI made car ownership cheaper and more reliable, despite being “theoretically” more problematic.
The same applies to diesels and hybrids: sure, the diesel engine is theoretically more solid and less complex, but thusfar it’s Toyota’s hybrids that are taking home reliability awards, while Volkswagen’s cars–diesel or gas–are still midpack at best.
Forgive me if this sounds harsh, but the claims of hybrids and their batteries being problematic seems more Luddite fear than hard fact.
August 15th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
joe,
i know all the UK owners i’ve talked to love their legacy diesels. clarkson started to sound like it loved it intially in his review and then panned the engine, though that’s clarkson and taken with a huge grain of salt that one could choke on (and if they get it down, have blood pressure high enough from it to have a stroke).
porsche does magically make their flat engines rev, and subarus get theirs above 6,500 (my sti rev to 7grand) but most pancakes have such a long stroke, which creates the great torque, but only allows so many revs. it could also be that the subaru sourced IHI turbos aren’t happy high in the rev range in their gasser engines or head/intake design that prevents breathing, but about 6,400 the sti (an 05) is pretty lifeless, i’ve heard a TGV flap delete in the intake helps a lot but i havent performed that experiment as of yet as i’m not trying to bypass any emissions equipment.
August 15th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
Wow, the TDI seriously intrigues me. Awesome fuel economy, manual tranny, enough monster torque to make the car get out of its own way, priced between the base Jetta and GLI, and “nearly as much fun to drive as the GTI”? HELLO!
Only three major problems:
1. Diesel fuel costs (as most have already mentioned)
2. Lack of availability of diesel fuel stations
3. The Jetta manages to look ugly and boring at the same time!
Luckily, #3 can be womewhat remedied by larger wheels, a lip spoiler, and the factory ground effects…you’d be surprised what a difference they make.
August 15th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
So let me get this straight…
I pay the dealer a significant markup over MSRP to buy a new TDI.
I have to have all drivetrain maintenance done at the dealership for the foreseeable future (including after warranty), as the diesel is a new design.
I have to pray that VW solved the various quality issues that have plagued the brand for what seems forever now.
And lastly, I have to hope that diesel demand doesn’t cause another spike in diesel prices so that all of this makes economic sense.
Oh yeah, and one more thing: I have to believe that the Germans really took into account the still relatively crappy quality of fuels in this country.
Um, I think I’ll just go w/a boring ol’ Prius; it’s not like spirited driving is a hallmark of the American motoring experience.
August 15th, 2008 at 9:20 pm
“If all those Prius’s are still happily churning around after 10 years and 150k + miles with factory battery packs, then let’s talk.”
The Prius has already been sold for 11 years.
August 15th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
high mileage, buy a hybrid, Honda & Toyota have much better reliability numbers that Volkswagen.
I put 624,000 miles on my 1987 Golf (before hitting a deer at 55mph). My current 1997 Jetta is at 260,000 miles and doesn’t burn (or consume) a drop of oil. They are plenty reliable enough for my needs.
But I guess my cars don’t qualify as high mileage, eh?
This VW could get my attention if I thought VWs poor reliability (coupled with high repair costs) had been laid to rest.
If you keep taking ANY car to the dealer for repairs after the warranty runs out, guess what?
YOU WILL GET TAKEN TO THE CLEANERS! The service department at any dealership is the high profit center.
Find a private mechanic and save yourself hundreds of $$$$$ - it works for me…
August 15th, 2008 at 10:40 pm
No hybrids for me, thank you - they’re for the latest generation of mechanically-challenged drivers.
As an automotive enthusiast, I prefer to be more of a hands-on car owner when it comes to maintenance (for the past 30 years and counting)…
August 15th, 2008 at 11:29 pm
TO MENNO…
And to all other Prius true believers.
The reason all these diesel discussions start to compair with the Prius is Prius drivers are fanatics.
Like ex-smokers.
Everybody needs to know they are reborn and must praise them and join them.
There is no comparison between these two cars.
I don’t care about the constant use of the Canadian Taxi 200K plus miles.
I know smokers that lived to be 100.
Most don’t!
I know the Prius.
I know the diesel.
They simply do not compare.
One gets you mileage…without any semblance of fun or power.
Just try driving either one up a hill…withouit passengers….and the truth hits.
And the interiors…puleeez!
And the driving experience!
The Prius sucks at both.
Its roomy, but it feels like a park bench.
Look…now that we diesel lovers are getting our diesels back, all you diesel haters just back off and ton’t keep talking about the damned Prius.
All right allready.
Just buy your Prius and feel good about your saving the planet and your carbon footprint.
Leave us alone.
August 16th, 2008 at 12:10 am
I already have a TDI Jetta. Well over 120,000 miles… most on my own home-made fuel. I really don’t need more HP (90 HP and 50 MPG @ 90 MPH makes me smile all day long!)
What I don’t want is another Jetta. It is a dull as dishwater sedan ferrchrissakes. I want something INTERESTING with Diesel power. Say an Alfa Romeo JTDM-powered Spider. An Audi TT TDI Convertible… anything but yet another dull VW sedan. My kids are going off to college… I don’t want or need back seats anymore.
Sigh. I feel like I’m too far ahead of the curve compared to my countrymen.
–chuck
August 16th, 2008 at 11:44 am
The VW deal breakers are extraordinary preventive and breakdown maintenance costs and legendary dealer warmth. I’ll pass until these are competitive.
August 16th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
Attention all Prius owners:
My ‘84 Volvo 245 Diesel (Powered by Volkswagen) is 24 years old.
Please notify me when your Prius is 24 years old and still running.
Thank you.
August 16th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
As many have pointed out, there is little comparison between turbodiesels and hybrids or petrol cars for that matter. Hybrids are great for lame urban and suburban stop and go driving. I know, I bought one for mom and its OK for what it is. But it is truly “beige” thru and thru. And thats perfectly fine for some people and their driving reality.
Turbodiesels are a whole different subspecies. Constant-use, intercity and interstate is where these things thrive. Ive driven this new VW at the biodiesel convention in the spring. Even with four guys, it was pretty impressive. Still, its no Saab 93 TiD either.(My car)
And yes Vws(and most cars) have their usually small issues. Last week for example, I changed 2 bad 04 VW TDI pre-pumps($600 per). As per usual, the Germans have a way to over-complicate everything. In truth, these diesels dont even need a pre-pump, especially one that runs constantly. (ie All diesel return lines are pressured)
One problem I see most diesels encountering has to do with the lameass quality of the Dfuel here. Passing high emission specs and keeping EGRs clean with >40 Cetane fuel for 100Kmiles will be quite the feat. For that VW and MB should be commended.(Bring that BioD)
We also need to quit exporting diesel. We need it here and that would bring the price in line.
Finally…there should be more TD “sticks” ordered, cuz they are way easy and a joy to drive.
August 16th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
I am now going to have to close out the diesel vs. hybrid, Toyota vs. VW portion of the thread. As mentioned earlier, it makes my face hurt, and that means I have to start drinking bourbon on the mornings.
Please feel free to discuss anything else. Or ignore me, if you must.
August 16th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
I think for Justin’s sanity we all need to change the topic to the benefits of early morning bourbon consumption. Who’s with me?
August 16th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
Justin….
Doesn’t everybody drink in the morning?
But try Lagavulin Single malt…its so much smoother and goes with eggs.
August 16th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
Scotch? Not for the AM - that’s an evening drink for me. Mornings I really try to keep the drinking to a minimum. Only Bourbon, rum, vodka, beer, wine, and gin.
August 16th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
I didn’t read all the comments so please forgive me if I repeat something. One thing to remember is that you cannot buy the TDI in a base Jetta. You have to purchase it with a standard upgrade which accounts for almost $2K of the price premium. I own a 06 TDI and I have been in a Prius. There is nothing wrong with a Prius but in my opinion you get a more car with a Jetta at the same price point than a Prius. However, a Prius would still probably pencil out as more cost effective. It is just a matter of personal preference. I am very happy with my Jetta.
Just as an aside, there is no silver bullet when it comes to cars with better mpg. Diesels, hybrids, electrics, they all have there merits and demerits.
August 16th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
A 1998 Jetta TDI and a 2001 Prius actually represent the two vehicles that I had the most second thoughts on selling. As used car values, pre-$4.00 hysteria, they represented a frugalists dream come true.
The 1998 Jetta TDI was actually a very comfortable highway commuter. As an experiment I took out the rear seats, maxed out the tires, and pretty much used every safe hypermiling tactic out there short of high-risk drafting. Economy was between 55 and 60 mpg but that was with more than my share of neutral cruising on downhills.
I sold it for a healthy profit (bought it for $2750 earlier this year with only 109k) but I still think that it may have been the perfect car for the type of driving I do. In fact, on speeds higher than 50 mph it could pretty much outperform the Prius. The 09′ will be another story… but the 98′ is a true economy marvel and with biodiesel available to me for $3 a pop the price advantage was certainly there.
The 2001 Prius I bought back in 2006 for $6650. It had 123k on it and every single service from the first oil changes onward was done by the dealer. However it also had a brand new battery that would have easily cost me $2000 at the time if I needed to replace it myself.
It was an absolute tomb of quiet and as a town driver for my wife and our two kids, it would have been perfect. Fuel economy would have probably been in the low 40’s real world which is far better than the 20 - 25 mpg my wife usually gets with most of the vehicles I give her to drive.
Assuming she did 25,000 miles of driving a year… she would have likely saved around $4000 in gas at this point. I sold it for $8900 and I’m sure that even with another 50k on it, I would still be able to sell it for more than my initial purchase price.
Overall, The Jetta I had was an enthusiast’s car for the DIY’s, the Euro-oriented drivers, highway drivers and for those who want to be very active with hypermiling techniques. The one on sale now may be a better or worse choice for everyone save the DIY’s (complex electronics), but it’s like comparing an 88′ Accord to an 08′ model. They’re totally different machines with virtually no customer overlap in my estimation.
The Prius is better for those who don’t really car about sporty driving. Those who want anvil levels of reliability, a hatchback, do mostly town driving, and want to help the environment would also do better with the Prius (unless you use high quality biodiesel which makes the last point a debatable one). The current Prius is truly the most influential car of this decade, bar none. I actually prefer the Prior generation though for it’s unique, almost French looks, and the fact that I likely won’t see myself when I round a corner.
As for the 09′ Jetta, my advice is to have a look see if you love diesels. If you like it more than the 09′ Honda diesel(s), get it. Just be prepared for a ‘non-frugal’ ownership experience because VW’s are quickly becoming the queen of repair costs and niggling electronics issues.
August 16th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
to Chuckgoolsbee- I feel your pain and ennui regarding the Jetta. I’ve owned over a dozen VW/Audi/NSU autos, and none of them have been Jettas. I just don’t understand the universal appeal of sedans. Instead, I was a Golf guy. But while shopping for my latest TDI, a Golf started seeming both too rare and too familar. So I bought a used New Beetle.
I don’t know why I didn’t consider it before. It had been a full ten years since the Bug was reborn, and I’d always rejected it as a “chick’s car,” too small for utility, etc. But when I finally considered its place in the family fleet, as a second or third vehicle, I realized it didn’t need much cargo capacity of an adult back seat to serve as my commuter runabout. Then I started looking at MINIs, which recalibrated my sights so that a Beetle’s trunk seemed generous indeed!
I’m delighted with the New Beetle’s design. The interior is a marvel of simple convenience, once you determine what will and won’t fit n the cupholder. The big glass areas give a great view of the road, the fields, the sky. And this VW is even available in colors beyond red, silver and black. My bright green bug is an attention getter that hardly needs DRLs (good thing, as they don’t work). I get waves from kids and interested questioning at truck stop pumps. It’s fun to get respect from other diesel drivers— especially from that locomotive engineer, just the other day, who laid on the air horn as we passed! Yes, I honked back…
August 16th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
EVERBODY…
Justin tried to explain this was NOT a jetta vs prius event!
He was just trying to give a good car a good review.
So he asked us to please, PLEASE stop.
Jesus…does every car have to be compared to that damned thing!?
Does every damned diesel now automatically get compared to this thing?.
I can’t wait for the BMW3 diesel ths fall. Wonder hiow it compares to the Prius????
At least he should know he is not drinking alone in the morning
There are quite a few of us.
August 16th, 2008 at 7:49 pm
Me thinks Justin drinks in the morning regardless of whether his face hurts or not. The only question is 1am or 8?
BTW, real world observed ~2.2L TiD mileage….32 w/many cold winter starts and short trips to 47 (interstate tank-drainers at 10-15mph over posted limits.)
August 16th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
I don’t think anyone criticizing the ‘09 TDI has actually driven it! Diesels are not like gas cars - forget the numbers, and try this thing. The power seems to be in exactly the right place for the way people actually drive; it is a blast! You will see why over 50% of vehicles sold in Europe are diesel - - yes, even over 50% of the BMWs.
I have a 2003 Jetta TDI. In 70K miles, I have spent $99 in repairs. The VW Diesels are very different and more dependable than the gas cars.
If you haven’t driven the car you should not criticize.
August 17th, 2008 at 8:59 am
I’m confused. Is there any other legitimate reason to buy a diesal vehicle over its gas powered version other than improved fuel mileage?
August 17th, 2008 at 9:50 am
Diesel engines tend to last longer than gas. In the upper 10% of automotive ownership, I would say there is about a 30% increase in the number of miles a diesel engine will typically go versus a gas counter part.
On the flip side, diesels usually cost more money to maintain. In the USA, there are also fewer mechanics who are skilled with working on a diesel engine due to their rarity. You can have the overall ownership costs go down if you produce your own biodiesel… which can also effectively eliminate you supporting shitbox dictatorships in the Middle East and elsewhere.
Finally, diesel engines usually have much higher levels of torque which make them better candidates for towing. They also tend to have more robust components than their counterparts and typically have more power in the lower ranges of their torque curve. This is why most heavy equipment and tow vehicles use diesel engines.
There are other unique features of diesel engines… but for auto enthusiasts that’s pretty much what you need to know.
August 17th, 2008 at 10:20 am
Re: “Is there any other legitimate reason to buy a diesel vehicle over its gas powered version other than improved fuel mileage?”
I beleive anyone asking that question has certainly not driven a modern Diesel car!
1. Performance - Fun to drive: With huge torque available even at very slow engine speeds, passing power is instant; no need to down-shift.
2. Range - go over 600 miles between fillups.
3. Longevity: Diesels often go well over 300,000 miles with minimal repairs.
4. Resale value: Much higher than gas vehicles. Do a search used car search for a used VW TDI. Ask someone that owns one how many people have offered to buy theirs.
Get curious - stop at a VW dealer for a few minutes and drive the new TDI.
August 17th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
This car will not be reliable. No VW built since 1973 has had any trait resembling reliability. I cannot understand why anybody would voluntairly buy a Volkswagen, they don’t even drive that well. I paid a huge price when I went uninformed and bought a ‘86 Jetta Carat. Worst vehicle I have ever owned.
August 17th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
I have driven the european version of the MY08 Jetta with the 2.0TDI engine & DSG, and I liked it a lot; but fun to drive it is not! Turn is and steering feedback is certainly not too good, you can feel the heavy front end on each turn and undulation. The steering is however nicely weighted, and the rest of the package is classic VW, comfy, good quality etc. It is a peaceful vehicle and one that you would be happy to own for years. The biggest points are won due to the engine-transmisson duo, they match perfectly. The main low points are the following IMHO:
-wind noise
-heavy front end
-wheel slip even in 3rd gear
all in all I think this car is one of the best cars in its class and worth the extra money, if only they made the chassis sportier, it would be perfect