One of the cornerstones of TTAC's existence is reminding the auto industry that "those who don't learn from the mistakes of the past are destined to repeat them." As a corollary we can say that learning from history's successes forms part of the recipe for a flat-out victory in today's highly segmented, price sensitive market. We have seen almost two decades since the boring sheetmetal of the Lexus LS400 hit our shores, forever changing the way we think about luxury cars. Fast forwarding along that school of thought brings us to the new, V8-powered, Hyundai Genesis 4.6.
Status seekers know the drill: avoid a South Korean automobile at all costs. That explains HyMoCo's last-minute change of the V8 decklid's (America-only) "H" logo to the global market's winged crest. Even with the Genesis name spelled out on its rear, the re-badged badge puts a little Bentley in yo' face for maximum curb appeal. And it's not offensive. Like the Lexus That Started It All, the Genesis demonstrates design-naivety; a socially inept copycat of the hottest sellers in this segment. Think of it as a muscle-bound Milhouse Van Houten on 18" rims.
The overall look mimics the 5 Series' swoopiness, but with aesthetic restraint and integrated form that eludes the Bangled brand. The front doors have a classic cab-backward feel, paying homage to the G35 while thumbing its nose at Lincoln's latest FWD abomination. The only downside remains the finely crafted grille– it begs for some name recognition to ward off the inevitable references to the brandless contents of a local Dollar Store.
The theme continues inside, where finely crafted materials draped over derivative bones make for a large and comfortable cabin. There's an abundance of chrome accents in Mercedes-like fashion, topped with some of the finest polymers this side of 50-large to ever grace a dashboard.
While the elegantly stitched leather panels are a welcome addition, the lack of wood trim complementing its bold sweeps keep the Hyundai looking up to its Japanese and German competition. And the oak-ish trim that is there looks like an afterthought. The Genesis' dash is also cursed with an array of silver-toned buttons that look better when Wal-Mart sells them on a be-speakered ghetto blaster. Ditto the poorly integrated plastic buttons on the big Hyundai's leather and wood-rimmed tiller.
And that's it. To wit: even the trunk is cavernous and exceptionally well trimmed. Get over the stylistic snafus and the V8 Hyundai earns its keep with up-rated leather seating, illuminated sill plates, a Caddy-trumping rear bench and a heated/cooled seat for the driver. They had to cut costs somewhere, so too bad about the other occupants' thermally-challenged backsides. At least everyone else gets to share in the joy of all 528 watts in the stellar Lexicon 7.1-channel audio system. Mark Levinson may not feel the heat just yet, but Mark Fields better take some damn good notes.
![There\'s a fine line between \"plain\" and \"understated.\" This one rides the line.](http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/112_0808_06z2009_hyundai_genesisside_motion.jpg "There\'s a fine line between \\"plain\\" and \\"understated.\\" This one rides the line.")
Fire up the (keyless) ignition and the Genesis "4.6" channels 375 horses through six speeds, under the watchful eye of two rear wheels, four Sachs-controlled (and Magnaride-worthy) dampeners, and a five-link suspension on both axles. The hardware continues to impress, just like the 5.7 second sprint to sixty. But stomping the torque-rich "Tau" V8 feels like a hollow treat; the electronically controlled throttle keeps the you from overtaxing your funmeter.
Put another way, you can feel the Genesis 4.6 really sing halfway though second gear. Hyundai could have gone for Detroit's jugular, but this does leave room for a sport package. Or not.
Granted the Pistonhead-worthy versions of Germany's finest are safe, but the Genesis 4.6 puts everyone else on notice with level cornering and a composed ride at sane speeds. Understeer hits well after the Genesis' body roll "tells" the driver to calm the hell down. That said, Hyundai did a fine job carrying speed with a load of passengers, but the positively sublime ride forms the core component of the car.
If Lexus pursued perfection, Hyundai got the patent. The SACHs-tuned springy bits absolutely devour a long interstate. Toss potholes, speed bumps or pavement joints into the mix and the Genesis moves so gracefully I swore it gained 6-inches in wheelbase and grew a Panther chassis. The slippery drag coefficient adds to a silent cabin. The Genesis 4.6 simply drives like a far more expensive car.
A car this affordable this good simply boggles the mind. But armchair analysts see the derivative sheetmetal and questionable Hyundai dealership experience going over as well as a fart in church. Be that as it may, the Genesis 4.6 stands well on its merits.
Its amazing that a country that had its first democratically-held election when Toyota was building a pseudo-autobahn now makes a luxury sedan that runs with the class leaders for a fraction of the price. The Hyundai Genesis 4.6 is the car Lexus made in 1989, and the one Detroit killed decades ago.
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Wow.
If I were in the mood to spend the extra money above and beyond the Sonata (2nd car), in addition to the Prius (commuter car), I’d get a V6 version of this in a heartbeat. Not because I care about what the neighbors think (because I don’t) but because I’d love a new luxury car just once in my life. The badge isn’t important to me. However, the fact that we’re on Hyundai #2 and #1 was “above average” (yet far better than Detroit 2.8 kraptastic offerings) and #2 was stellar (whoops, sorry, couldn’t resist).
Plus as a bonus, our local Hyundai dealer is not a low-rent high-pressure sales no-service dealer, but a decent operation, about as good as you can expect from any car dealer (save Lexus, apparently). Ironically, he also sells Saturn cars in the store next door to Hyundai. I wouldn’t give a Saturn the time of day…
Sajeev, somebody swiped the hood ornament off your Benz.
I think Hyundai has finally arrived at a point where they can build a quality car buyers can consider along side Infinity and Acura. I think Lexus has the edge in a few areas but considering the price it is a great value.
I noted the 5 star review of this car and can’t think of the last whip to get a 100% rating. I have a 2004 XG350 and am looking at a replacement, this might just be it.
I’m wondering why Hyundai didn’t create a new luxury brand like Toyota and Nissan did? I’m thinking it would have cost them too much and degraded the profitabillity of the Genesis, but again I believe they may underestimate the North American perception of cars and its associated “social status”. The Genesis reminds me of the VW Phaeton: great luxury car, but everything else is just a mainstream car experience, and you just can’t get away from having to go to the dealer. I believe Lexus got that right and other luxury brand are slowly catching up with overall dealer experience.
Sajeev…
I also agree with what you say as I have pointed out in earlier blogs.
Just a couple points, however.
First, the 6 cylinder is a far, far better choice and I wish you had the chance/time to review it as well.
Its power at 290 horses is astounding and feels great..
Second, I am not sure of the pricing advantage as they state.
To get the V6 Genesis at any reasonable luxury level, it will be 36,000.
The V8 is well into the 40s.
Even so, with most Luxus ES in showrooms listed at around 42 to 45…the Genesis is awfully close!
While still pretty unbelievable, that’s pretty close to real quality competition.
For instance, I just ordered a Lexus ES350 with (only) the luxury package (has everything…Lev sound, panoramic roof) and it came out before taxes and other crap at 36K plus.
A fully loaded Avalon, albeit not a “luxury” car, but close (and huge), is 35, 36K.
But overall…this car indeed runs and feels great.
Get it at it’s base 33K that is really well loaded, and you got a wonderful entry level sports/luxury car.
Silent.
Powerful.
Luxuriuos.
Large.
And really good and sporty looking.
Well done Hyundai.
God, it almost hurts to say that!
They probably should have started another line for their higher end offerings.
Honda –> Acura
Toyota –> Lexus
Nissan –> Infiniti
Hyundai –> Hyundai??
mart-o-rama
The reason Hyundai did not creat another luxury brand was cost.
They could not afford another dealer network.
By all means this looks like a great car, but I have to ask again: Does anyone know how much money Hyundai is losing on each one?
It’s a very nice car for a very good price. I don’t think it’d snag 5-Series intenders (or M45 intenders, if they’re serious about sport) but anyone who wants a sizable, well-trimmed, nice-riding quick car would be hard-pressed to find something better for the price.
Good for Hyundai for differentiating this product. About the only cars that sort of compete are slower (MKS) or less well-trimmed (300C). Everything else is either much more sporty, or much more expensive. And the coupe looks like it’ll make life uncomfortable for the sportier makes.
I’d like to see this in a wagon. It’s a good-looking car as it is, and it could make a tasteful tourer.
The Germans and Lexus probably don’t have much to worry about yet, but Infiniti and Cadillac might, Acura certainly does and Lincoln and Buick should be terrified.
The Genesis doesn’t change the game the way the original LS did, as it brings nothing new to the table, just a low price.
That said, I drove the V6 last week, and the suspension tuning, comfort, and overall refinement are outstanding. As the review notes, the Genesis is not a sport sedan, but the handling is never sloppy, and the ride is always smooth and silent.
What’s not to like? As the review notes, the materials are not the best. They’re easily good enough for a $40,000 car, but you’re not exactly getting a $60,000 car for $20,000 less.
Also, the black car I drove had some fit and finish issues: heavy orange peel in the paint, a broken power height adjuster, distortion in the front passenger’s side window, and some minor trim misalignment.
But clearly they got the hard stuff right.
Will the car prove reliable? TrueDelta’s Vehicle Reliability Survey hopes to provide a quick initial result. If you know someone who buys one, please send them here:
http://www.truedelta.com/reliability.php
Doesn’t look like a Hyundai.
I think this is the second Hyundai that looks like Benz.
I will keep on eye on The Hyundai company a very interesting company to make history with.
i agree with mart_o_rama, this car will remain an “expensive Hyundai” unless they form a new brand with an upscale image and chain of dealerships. and 5 stars? is this a 5 star car or a 5 star bargain?
I got to drive the V6 and V8 Geneses at a Hyundai preview event, and the review above is spot on. According to the staff…the difference between comparably equipped V6’s and V8’s is a mere $2000…and if that holds true, the V8 is clearly the game changer….as the V6, while nice, does nothing to differentiate itself from the competition.
They had an E550 and base CTS there for comparison, and while the E clearly felt more powerful and substantial, the CTS was cramped in back and not as smooth in comparison.
If this Hyundai were a Ford….I would already be on the waiting list.
ppellico,
Apples and oranges. The Lexus ES interior uses higher grade materials than you’ll find in the Genesis, but underneath you’ve got an upgraded, front-drive Camry. The Genesis is larger, with a far superior chassis. The hardware is comparable to the LS, not the ES, even if the interior is not.
psarhjinian,
Very well put. The thing is, how much of this market is really serious about sport? Maybe 20 percent? Probably less. The Genesis does feel sportier than a Lexus, and falls very close to Mercedes in terms of driving feel.
The problem with the Lincoln MKS isn’t that it’s slower. It’s that the entire car looks and feels slipshod compared to the Genesis. I drove both the same day. The Lincoln both rides and handles considerably worse, noise levels are much higher, and some interior trim bits are Focus-class, at best. Supposedly it’s selling well. People must like the interior room and exterior styling. Seating comfort rivals the Hyundai.
1998S90 :
August 27th, 2008 at 8:51 am
They probably should have started another line for their higher end offerings.
Honda –> Acura
Toyota –> Lexus
Nissan –> Infiniti
Hyundai –> Hyundai??
Hyundai -> Kia?
it reminds me of another great luxury car that was plagued with a proletarian badge, and a more direct link to Bentley.
and if this thing tries to tell me i’m posting to fast again, I’ll crap a sack of nickles.
Michael Karesh and psarhjinian..
First, I wish people would stop saying the EX is just a Camry in better clothes.
It has the same chassis, but lengthened and strengthened and silented.
It has many more added luxury and performance.
It is different, technically.
To call the genesis chassis far superior is a really questionable statement.
Where did you pull that from?
Hardware comparison…please, Michael…its not even close as stated in the article above. Lexus IS quality, down to every nob and switch.
Inside, although it states that the Genesis is larger…you would’t know it sitting in both as we have so many, many times this past month.
That makes it different.
As far as trying to be the luxury AND sport car…isn’t that exactly what the Germans have been doing successfully all these years?
But don’t get me wrong.
I must really like the Genesis as I constantly speak well of it, test drove it at least 3 times…and touted it here on TTAC.
psarhjinian :
It’s a very nice car for a very good price. I don’t think it’d snag 5-Series intenders (or M45 intenders, if they’re serious about sport) but anyone who wants a sizable, well-trimmed, nice-riding quick car would be hard-pressed to find something better for the price.
I agree. The Genesis is a very credible car for the money and should give the likes of Lexus a serious run (not to mention slaughtering cars like the MKS).
I can totally understand Hyundai’s reluctance in establishing a dedicated dealer network for the Genesis. It worked for Lexus (and Infiniti and Acura) back in the 80s because the market and economy were different. That doesn’t mean Hyundai isn’t seriously looking at developing the network later on. As far as sales figures go, the Genesis seems to be doing very well.
I’d actually look at this car if they had an AWD version. I realize that defeats the whole RWD luxury sedan idea, but in my locale, RWD isn’t really an option in winter.
Hyundai may actually hit a home run with this car based on the timing of the introduction. With all companies toning down leasing (which account for 50% of all BMW sales, iirc), they may be able to snag the luxury car buyer who’s actually looking to pay cash for a car, but thinks 55 grand is a little high for a 5 series (me).
Whether it succeeds or not, we’ll see. I’ve seen nothing but positive reviews for this car. Props to Hyundai for designing a car people SHOULD want, instead of hitting the panic button like Detroit and shifting to little crapboxes.
Side note; Sajeev your reviews are always very well done, with relevant comparisons and not too much snarky attitude. Thanks.
I’m still skeptical. In the late 90’s Toyota arguably had a better image than Hyundai has to day. Most people still joke about Hyundai as a cheap car, or have been burned by one of their awful products in the past. Simply put, they don’t have the caché to pull off a luxury car. Neither did Honda, Toyota or Nissan. No matter how good the car is it’ll be a failure until Hyundai creates an upmarket brand…or buys one.
Hyundai certainly isn’t hurting for cash – if they wanted to make a luxury brand they could have. I believe this is their halo car and they want to show that they can make a nice luxury car and I think they succeeded very well in doing so.
As for the comparisons to the VW Phaeton, Hyundai did not price this car near 100k – they kept it right where it should be for what it is. The Phaeton is a wonderful car, but it really should have fallen into the Audi brand and not VW, especially with the price on it.
Adam, I’m not sure if you are aware of this or not, but prior to Hyundai slapping on the 10yr/100,000 mile warranty they used Mistubishi engines and transmissions in all of their vehicles. It wasn’t until they had their power train program up and running that they started phasing out the Mitsu sourced power trains and put the warranty on the cars. This was back in 98 or 99 – even though they still had a couple models with the Mistu power trains at the time while they were in the process of converting over. That said, I still don’t believe they need a luxury brand at this time. They are working on positioning Kia as the entry brand and trying to move Hyundai upscale. That certainly is an uphill battle and will take years, but if they continue with vehicles like this it will happen.
It’s not so much game-changing as it’s picking up a game that Lexus walked away from and that Lincoln, Buick and Acura (and to a degree, Saab, VW and Volvo) have been playing badly as of late.
Hyundai isn’t just selling a midsize sedan with extra frosting, it’s selling a purpose-built luxury chassis at a lower margin and without the sheer gimcrackery in it’s competition. No one’s sold anything like this car in North America since the not-as-good Q went away; everything’s been either a mainstreamer-with-frosting or a partial effort that lacks polish.
If you think about it, this car competes with… what? The Lincoln Town Car? DTS? 300C? RL, 9-5 or S80? How about the Avalon, Maxima or Lucerne? It may come up short next to a 545i, but would you seriously buy a Town Car, Lucerne or Avalon instead?
Again, not so much game-changing as picking up an existing game that’s been abandoned.
True, at the $40,000 price point there simply is not a comparable car.
The closest comparable car is probably the Infiniti M, which is priced at least $10,000 higher.
But my point was that the Genesis will not have the broad impact on the industry that the LS did.
I’m not so sure. I think that there’s a great big gaping hole in the market, and Hyundai has driven the Genesis straight into it without the pretensions and problems of VW’s Phaeton.
Think about it: there’s no real “nice car” anymore. The niche that Lincoln, Volvo, Buick and Saab used to own has been gutted between decontented 3-Series and C-Classes on one hand and Camry XLEs on the other. Their cause hasn’t been helped by the fact that Volvo, Saab and Buick haven’t exactly been cranking out good cars.
And now along comes Hyundai, with a car that’s every bit as good as the MKS, S80 or Lucerne should have been, and at a time where people–even well-off people–are going to think more than twice about spending 20-40 grand more for a badge, but don’t really want a nice Camry or a mediocre Volvo or Buick.
Compared to Mercedes they don’t have much brand equity, but what about Lincoln, Volvo or Buick? How much equity to they really have next to Hyundai? Remember the glory-era Volvo 740s, Buick Park Avenues, Lincoln Continentals? That’s the Genesis’ niche, and I don’t think that, given how far the midmarket makes have fallen, that it’s going to very hard for Hyundai at all.
Sajeev – Thanks for a great review. It’s going to be interesting to see how this does in the marketplace. You can bet Toyota is watching closely…
Let’s not forget something else. A TON of people read Consumer Reports, and Mercedes Benz products have been truly catastrophic in their reliability for over a decade now – and the word is “out” about them.
Folks moved “down” from Saabs to Subarus. Saab is all but dead in the water.
I can’t see why it’s any different for folks to move “down” from an overpriced, overengineered (read: over complex), unreliable POS Mercedes, easily escewing the Chrysler 300 POS, and trying this car out. Particularly the folks who aren’t interested any more in what their neighbors think of the badge on their cars (i.e. they’ve grown up).
Perhaps it is not a Camry sized market for sure, but it’s there. Hyundai’s done well.
“But armchair analysts see the derivative sheetmetal and questionable Hyundai dealership experience going over as well as a fart in church.”
sometimes a fart in church is just what it takes to wake up the congregation during a boring sermon.
The Lexus was never predicted to be as popular and successful as it turned out to be. The Genesis will appeal to a very large segment of the buying public that is not impressed by three pointed stars and other symbols that shout, “I have money!”. These things seem most important to those that do have money and those that want to be thought to have money. The rest of us just want a nice car. Good luck Hyundai, and good review.
To get the V6 Genesis at any reasonable luxury level, it will be 36,000.
The V8 is well into the 40s.
A fully loaded V8 tops out at $42,000 including freight.
For instance, I just ordered a Lexus ES350 with (only) the luxury package (has everything…Lev sound, panoramic roof) and it came out before taxes and other crap at 36K plus.
The ES base price is over $34,000, and the Levinson/Nav package is $4,250 and the luxury package (panoramic roof, etc…) is $5,380. I’d like to know where I can get one for $36,000…
A fully loaded Avalon, albeit not a “luxury” car, but close (and huge), is 35, 36K.
A fully loaded Avalon is more like $40,000, which puts it squarely in the V8 Genesis range and as expensive as the V6 Genesis.
A TON of people read Consumer Reports, and Mercedes Benz products have been truly catastrophic in their reliability for over a decade now – and the word is “out” about them.
I would still like to know exactly what all those circle ratings mean in Consumer Reports. I got their auto survey and they ask very generic questions, leaving a lot to the interpretation of the respondent. I don’t put a lot of stock in CR anymore.
I know several people with Benzes who love them and have had no trouble, but that is just anecdotal evidence. Mr. Karesh, any comments??
Impressive.
However I must bark editorially (NVH engineers are howling): please correct to four Sachs-controlled (and Magnaride-worthy) damp
eners, lest someone get the impression that Sachs is in the vehicle irrigation market.@Sajeev
Lexicon 7.1-channel audio system. Mark Levinson may not feel the heat just yet
Mark Levinson and Lexicon are both Harman International brands, like Infinity, JBL, Harman Kardon, Becker and about a million other brands, so it’s mostly a badge thing.
ppellico,
The Lexus ES really is a luxury version of the Camry, riding on the same 109.3″ wheelbase. I’m sure you’ll like yours, but you really can’t compare them in terms of their chassis design and construction. The Lexus GS would be a better comparison.
Sajeev,
Excellent review. Mirrors my sentiments. I’m convinced the Genesis is the big story of the year, and will find/open a substantial niche in the market for itself.
TexasAg03
I am talking as the one person here that has spent the last few weeks driving each one of these cars at least 3 times each AND pricing them.
In fact, my wife and I had to start going to farther away dealers so they wouldn’t get angry!
The fully loaded Genesis V8 is 43K.
A fully loaded V6 is 40K.
Now, for my Lexus ES350 pricing.
The base is 32,024 at overstock.
IF you do NOT order through a dealer AND you are willing to wait as I am the 3 or more months to get it from Japan you can order the base at 32K then add the 4,400 Ultra pack.
Thus the 35,582.
I have the printout in my hands.
For this excercise…go to overstock.com.
Build your lexuse es350.
Once you pick the basic, then only add the luxury package for 4,352…the final 35,582.
Maybe they lied.
Maybe it won’t happen.
But I did it.
And once again, I AGREE with everybody.
I love this Genesis!
But I explained once before, you can’t get a car that does everything.
The Avalon will not get you the sport, but Jesus…you can camp in the back seat and its front wheel drive can’t be ignored.
Genesis cannot give you the pure soft creamy leather and silence of the ES, plus FWD.
(I know, pure performance can’t be had with FWD.)
But all I want is for the car to wake me when I get home!
I personnaly would get a Genesis if not for the absolute need for 7 hour cruising luxury.
Its all straight, full spead ahead driving.
When Hyundai got into trouble in the 1980s instead of whining about a mythical perception gap it dug in and made itself better. The Genesis is their game changer.
ppellico,
on overstock for ES350:
“This vehicle does not have an Overstock price”
am I looking in the wrong place?
The most direct competitor to the Genesis IS going to be the Lexus ES350.
The Genesis is a conservative vehicle. The exterior styling, the interior design, heck even the actual driving experience is far reminiscent of a cruiser than a carver.
Any comparisons with Saab, BMW, Infiniti, or the C-Class should be thrown out the window. That’s not going to be the intended audience.
ES350, Lucerne, Town Car (the Hyundai may actually pull a few retirees), and the Avalon/Camry will be the most direct competitors. I would even throw in the Accord EX-L V6 sedan to this group as well.
As Sajeev already mentioned, it is an extremely competitive vehicle. But I can see it having trouble after the first year if three critical things aren’t done to improve it’s marketability.
1) They need to provide a warranty and a standard of dealer service that puts Lexus on notice. In fact, the biggest deficit Hyundai has at the moment is that most of their dealerships have been focused on the ‘value’ side of the consumer experience instead of the ‘premium’ side of it.
The dealer will need to give the potential customers a ‘Wow!’ as well as Lexus already does in this market. That will not be easy to do.
2) Hyundai’s marketing of this vehicle is half-baked. They don’t seem to be able to push the quality of the component of the equation as well as the value in their commercials. That’s one thing every luxury model needs to be able to establish from the get-go.
3) A lot of folks are going to look at the front grille, the price, and simply conclude that the Genesis is a cheap Benz knockoff without driving it. Related to this, the 1st gen Lexus LS400 was a staid vehicle. But… it pursued all of the items mentioned above and had a stablemate Lexus SC300/SC400 that was drop dead gorgeous. Hyundai needs that type of sister car for the Genesis if they want anything more than just a foothold in this market.
Finally, what do you guys think about Hyundai taking over Hummer and using the standalone dealerships for a ‘Genesis’ brand? The facilities of the Hummer dealerships are very recent and GM would potentially be able to just sell the network and the models as separate units. It’s a thought.
Steven Lang: I think that you are too swayed by price. The Genesis is really comparable to the Infiniti M / Lexus GS in terms of good comparison. Comparing a V6/V8 RWD luxury car to a FWD gussied up Camry is perhaps a bit flawed. Comparing the Genesis to the Town Car and the Lucerne is insulting the Koreans. The funny thing is this is all very familiar. Back when the LS400 was introduced everyone was saying the same thing, gee, I should compare that to a Chevy or a Chrysler rather than comparing it to the actual competition from Europe.
BMW and Mercedes don’t have too much to fear from the genesis at the moment, but I think Infiniti an Lexus have a great deal to worry about. Acura is having their own sales problems at the moment, and trouble defining what an Acura really is, but the Genesis can’t really be good for them either. I’d take a Genesis V8 over a current generation RL any day.
On the warranty front I’m not sure what you mean. Lexus has a 4 year 50,000 mile bumper-to-bumper and 6 year 70,000 mile powertrain warranty. The Genesis gets Hyundai’s 5 year 60,000 mile bumper-to-bumper and 10 year 100,000 mile powertrain warranty. I’m not sure how you can look at what is possibly the best warranty available and say it should be different? The one thing I could add to the Genesis would be maintainance for a period of time, but, that would go against the “discount” theme.
Steven Lang –
If memory serves, the SC was introduced three years after the LS, and had very little impact on anything. Initially, the only other Lexus was the ES, which was very much a tarted up Camry with framless door glass.
I also think you’re overestimating the badge snobbery of many German car buyers and underestimating the driving experience provided by the Hyundai. Lately an increasing number of my panel members have been opting for something Japanese as their BMW and Mercedes leases expire. The Genesis would actually be a less abrupt transition for many of these people.
On MB “reliability”… Anecdotal, I know, but my experience with a 2002 C320 wagon was atrocious. ECU replaced 2x. Battery replaced 3x. Every window lift motor replaced. Every seat motor replaced. Sun roof motor replaced. Tranny shot with less than 60k miles. MB USA and Germany told me “tough luck.” It was indeed. I will NEVER buy another MB.
I like the Hyundai Genesis very much. If it sells/runs without major problems for the first 2-3 years, it’ll be my next highway cruiser.
menno,
POS is a major exaggeration when speaking of a Chrysler 300, much less a Mercedes. What those dots in CR obscure is how low even the repair rates of such “worse than average” cars are.
I have quite a few owners of the large Chryslers in my survey. The 2005s, even with a higher repair rate than newer model years, are averaging just over one repair trip per year.
In Mercedes case, I have less data. But what I do have suggests that the new 2008 C-Class is managing an average repair rate, about 60 repair trips per hundred cars per year, while the 2005 is about twice that level, around 120 per 100. These cars are hardly in the shop “all the time.”
It’s a bit early to say with any certainty, but I also think it’s possible that Mercedes has turned a corner in the last year or two with regard to quality. As inept123 attests, the cars from the early 2000s could be troublesome. Not all of them were, but too many of them were.
I wouldn’t argue that Hyundai ‘gathers’ design ideas from other companies but I think they are more scrutinized in this respect. When I look at the radical new Acura TL, it makes me think last-gen Nissan Maxima. There’s always going to be some overlap unless you’re willing to do something truly bizarre.
Hyundai won’t be disappointed when they’re not considered over a BMW because they’ll be selling lots of these on sheer price point to Joes and Janes who just know/assume they can’t afford a luxury brand.
Once they get a foot in the door though, history proves they’re relentless so we can expect a respected luxury line from Hyundai in the next 10 to 15 years. By that time we won’t look back on the Genesis in the same light as we do the Pony.
Paul Niedermeyer
and
seoultrain
Paul, look, you may be right, but all I can do is go by what the reviewers and so called experts state.
Here it is from Edmunds…instead of redesigning a whole new platform for the ES, they tweeked and changed and lengthened the Camry chassis.
So, technically, they are not the same…but basically, you are right.
However, in the auto world, enlarging and tweeking platforms is a whole new world for the car.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=109687
Seoultrain…here is the page for the ES configuation
Overstock:
http://cars.overstock.com/configurator.html?trimId=224981#
I wonder how much Hyundai’s dealership network will hurt sales of the Genesis.
I’m willing to bet that Hyundai dealers like Planet Hyundai here in the Las Vegas valley will drop the ball and drive away potential customers.
Jack of all trades is a master of none …
This is very bad news for GM and Ford. It’s highly unlikely that the Lexus crowd will be seen driving a Hyundai – any Hyundai. But this will definitely take sales away from Buick (if it has any left to steal) and Lincoln and Cadillac. I think Cadillac is particularly vulnerable, since they no longer offer a large sedan (the DTS doesn’t count, since it doesn’t appeal to anyone who doesn’t have an enlarged prostate).
Hyundai’s timing may also be perfect, as they are introducing the Genesis right at the time when people are scrambling to abandon their Lincoln Navigators, but still want something big and “safe” they can drive in.
Thank you all for reading.
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Detroit-Iron : Wow.
I said that a few times during the test drive. That doesn’t happen very often for me.
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doktorno : Sajeev, somebody swiped the hood ornament off your Benz.
And gave me a $20,000 instant rebate on an E550.
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GS650G : I noted the 5 star review of this car and can’t think of the last whip to get a 100% rating.
Aside from the exotics, the last one I remember was the Ford Mondeo.
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mart_o_rama : The Genesis reminds me of the VW Phaeton: great luxury car, but everything else is just a mainstream car experience, and you just can’t get away from having to go to the dealer.
The difference is that the Genesis is much, much cheaper than its (V8 powered) competition, and the Phaeton was astronomical and untouchable.
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ppellico : First, the 6 cylinder is a far, far better choice and I wish you had the chance/time to review it as well.
I couldn’t disagree more. For $2000 less, the 6 cylinder is not worth it. It has cheap leather and less standard toys, IIRC. The V8 model is the only one I’d consider.
ppellico: For instance, I just ordered a Lexus ES350 with (only) the luxury package (has everything…Lev sound, panoramic roof) and it came out before taxes and other crap at 36K plus.
Yes, I saw your posts and kudos for reaching out to the TTAC community.
Not to be a jerk, but I wish you the best of luck. Read my review of it here on TTAC, because I didn’t like the ES much. Keep in mind that several owners on Lexus forums experienced what I did and complimented me for seeing things from their eyes. Even if they fix the transmission surging problem and horrible wind noise, it still drives like a torque-steering V6 Camry with terrible visibility.
The Genesis 4.6 is an LS460 for half the price. Its something much, much more than its $35000-$45000 price point implies. The ES is what it is.
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MattVA : By all means this looks like a great car, but I have to ask again: Does anyone know how much money Hyundai is losing on each one?
IIRC, Lexus sold the LS400 at a loss too. Hyundai is offsetting that loss somehow, maybe by not building a new dealer network. Then again, if Ford can sell 4.6L Panthers with power everything for $20,000…the Genesis 4.6 might be making decent profit at $42,000.
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Michael Karesh : The Genesis doesn’t change the game the way the original LS did, as it brings nothing new to the table, just a low price.
The LS400 didn’t bring anything new to the table, other than fresh dealer real estate. They benchmarked the S-class and gave most of its goodness for less money…and Hyundai benchmarked the “benchmarker” that started it all.
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phil : and 5 stars? is this a 5 star car or a 5 star bargain?
It wouldn’t get 5-stars if it was $60,000. Unless you’re the type that buys houses with cash and a whim, this much performance and luxury for $42,000 is a godsend.
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Michael Karesh : The Lexus ES interior uses higher grade materials than you’ll find in the Genesis, but underneath you’ve got an upgraded, front-drive Camry.
Quite frankly, the ES’s leather is junk compared to the Genesis 4.6. Ditto the seat foam and many of the dashboard vinyls. The ES has far superior gauges and wood trim, however.
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ppellico : To call the genesis chassis far superior is a really questionable statement.
Well it is because it’s not a torque steering wrong-wheel driver that’s based on a $19,000 Camry. The five link suspension, RWD, Sachs shocks, etc are a CUT ABOVE anything near its price.
You should really drive a V8 Genesis when you have a chance.
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rpenna : Whether it succeeds or not, we’ll see. I’ve seen nothing but positive reviews for this car. Props to Hyundai for designing a car people SHOULD want, instead of hitting the panic button like Detroit and shifting to little crapboxes.
Side note; Sajeev your reviews are always very well done, with relevant comparisons and not too much snarky attitude. Thanks.
Gotta love the snark in small doses, that’s why I’m not writing for the big boys. Seriously though, Detroit’s panic button is only bad because of their poorly executed luxury cars (300C’s interior) ,misguided platforms (Ford’s boring D3s) and the lack of a V8 in the CTS.
That said, anyone who buys a non-sport package CTS without considering the Genesis 4.6 is doing himself or herself a disservice.
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psarhjinian : Again, not so much game-changing as picking up an existing game that’s been abandoned.
Bingo. Imagine if the CTS had the Impala SS’s small block V8. Or if Ford didn’t kill the Lincoln LS, and put their 4.6L cammer under the hood.
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Gottleib : sometimes a fart in church is just what it takes to wake up the congregation during a boring sermon.
And to have people laugh at you. Which could be the Genesis’ fate, if badge snobbery is what actually sells cars today.
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jgholt : However I must bark editorially (NVH engineers are howling): please correct to four Sachs-controlled (and Magnaride-worthy) dampeners, lest someone get the impression that Sachs is in the vehicle irrigation market.
D’oh!!!! Edit on its way. Thanks for keeping me in check.
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ppellico : The fully loaded Genesis V8 is 43K.
No it $42k with destination. And that’s fully loaded with a backup camera. The only flaw in the car (the car, not the dealership or the brand) is the lack of passenger seat heating/cooling.
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Kyle Schellenberg : Once they get a foot in the door though, history proves they’re relentless so we can expect a respected luxury line from Hyundai in the next 10 to 15 years. By that time we won’t look back on the Genesis in the same light as we do the Pony.
Granted I don’t live in Canada, but the Pony will be erased from most people’s memory once they get behind the wheel of a Genesis 4.6.
Sajeev Mehta WOW!
That was a lot of work and thanks.
I will drive the V8 once it gets here later in November.
Only giving up 1 MPG for the extra power seems worth it.
But other reviews read have taken the V8 to task for its lack of and slow to react power.
I will know later this month.
But I gotta take you to task for your calling the leather in the ES Junk.
Maybe you have more on this having seen and sat in the V8.
Is the V8 given better leather?
If not, you owe us all an appology for that remark.
As a true TTAC reviewer, you need to stay somewhat on the truth path.
You would be the first to ever say this about the leather in a Lexus.
The TL, Genesis and most other cars have thicker, harder leather when compared to the soft and subtle leather in the ES.
Thanks much for the reveiw and the long reply to all of us.
Very much appreciated.
Paul
PS Is RWD not a problem in the North World?
The Genesis hasn’t been crash tested yet by the IIHS and I note the generally poor performance of Hyundai sedans to date. Has Hyundai cleaned up its act yet? Personally, as a former BMW 5 driver and current BMW 3 driver, as well as a 2007 Acura TL, I no longer consider cars that fail to get at least a good rating by the IIHS.
ppellico: Thanks for entering in a dialogue with me. Yes the V8 has much, much better leather. I agree, the V6 leather is pretty bad, like most Hyundais. The V8’s leather alone is worth the price, and its far softer and fragrant than the ES.
As a true TTAC reviewer, you need to stay somewhat on the truth path. You would be the first to ever say this about the leather in a Lexus.
I stand by my remark. The ES test car I had was a Press unit, so it was either just as good or better than the one you bought: the 2007 model I had sported mediocre leather along with the other problems mentioned in the review.
When you compare the ES’ leather to the fine stuff in the Genesis V8 and the Lincoln MKS (picking those two because they are new models that I’ve spent some time in) and its quite below average. I even thought the Lucerne’s leather was softer than the ES.
Is RWD not a problem in the North World?
Bridgestone Blizzacks on a second set of wheels and use the Genesis’ excellent traction control. If needed, buy a sandbag or two just in case.
What is “dealer experience” and how can you tell whether you’ve had a good one?
Is it a salesman in a suit as nice as yours (when you actually had to wear them) who is comfortable calling you by your first name?
Is it a service manager in a logo golf shirt with a stunningly rich vocabulary who makes you a fresh latte’ while he charges you $250 for an oil change and $400 for a 4-wheel alignment?
Is it great waiting room furniture and a big screen TV with the Bloomberg channel, WiFi and the entire Conde’ Nast publication collection arranged by month?
I mean, Lexus aside (because they drive 60 miles each way to pick-up my Dad’s IS for an oil change), what the hell IS “dealer experience?”
Why do I want one?
Should I have one? I had a nice experience one summer with our local BMW dealer’s daughter (does that count)?
I mean, I want a CAR that is really fun to drive – every day, not too expensive to maintain and good to look at. I am not joining a club or a social organization …am I?
Why, unless the thing is a Veyron and in the shop every 1k, should I care about the “dealer experience?”