By on August 27, 2008

If that's all it takes, why aren't the manufacturers using it to beat CAFE?Shaker asks:

I've been hearing about these systems that use hydrogen added to the intake systems of cars resulting in mileage gains of 20-30 percent. My engineering background tells me that this can't be the case (as you can't get "something for nothing"), but the latest spin that I've seen on the Web is that small amounts of added hydrogen somehow enhance the combustion of regular gasoline, so that a small "hydrogen generator" unit is sufficient. There's even a guy at our company (still hearsay) that claims to have increased the mileage of his Civic by 10MPG. I think this is very unlikely (if not impossible), but maybe your crew could debunk the myth, or find that there's some merit there.

So how about it? Do any of you have any experience with hydrogen injection or can explain how it could improve mileage? For that fact, have any of you ever used any gadget advertised to increase gas mileage that actually worked as claimed?

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58 Comments on “Ask the Best and Brightest: Do Hydrogen Injection Systems Work?...”


  • avatar
    Subifreak

    Switching to synthetic oil (Amsoil) improved my fuel economy by 2% overall. However, pure nitrogen filled tires for autos is BS. K & N filters did nothing in my vehicles either.

    Very interested to hear the comments about hydrogen injection.

  • avatar
    VerbalKint

    My experience with the three products mentioned by Subifreak is the same.
    If those contraptions actually are introducing H2 into the combustion chamber think: Hindenburg…

  • avatar
    matt

    I don’t think you would really gain anything, since hydrogen has a lower enthalpy of combustion than gasoline, so you get less energy per “bang.” But as far as if it helps the combustion go farther to completion or something, I’m not sure. My initial reaction is no, but I could be wrong.

  • avatar
    barberoux

    I switched to Mobil 1 and my gas mileage increased. I can also increase my mileage greatly by placing an egg between my foot and the accelerator, and not breaking the egg.
    Adding hydrogen into the air/fuel mix would add another combustible thus increasing the amount of available BTUs so mileage would increase. What is the cost of this though? You pay for the hydrogen. Piston engined airplanes have used water injection to increase performance but then you have to carry around the weight of the water so you decrease the available payload you can carry. It’s always a trade off.

  • avatar

    With the magnets on the fuel line, the acetone in my gas, and the tornado air intake, I’m probably already all maxed out.

    Sigh.

  • avatar
    highrpm

    Some of these hydrogen systems use several glass pickle jars as part of their system. This kind of stuff tends to peg my BS meter.

    Don’t you basically need the equivalent of a nuclear reaction in order to break water down into hydrogen? These guys are using pickle jars for this stuff…

  • avatar
    Cody

    barberoux, water injection doesn’t work on the same principle as hydrogen injection…water is used to lower intake temps and whatnot.

  • avatar
    bunkie

    “Don’t you basically need the equivalent of a nuclear reaction in order to break water down into hydrogen? These guys are using pickle jars for this stuff…”

    If memory serves, Fleischman and Pons used something very similar to a pickle jar when they claimed to have produced cold fusion. Yes, I know, but if you do some research you will find that there is soem evidence that there’s something strange and inexplicable going on in that jar. Which is not to say that the hydrogen combustion devices are anything other than pure floobydust…

  • avatar
    nudave

    Frank – I think the answer you’re groping for is “no”.

    Anecdotes are not evidence.

  • avatar
    AuricTech

    @highrpm:

    All you need to get hydrogen from water is electricity.

  • avatar
    fisher72

    From my understanding of these ‘H’ injection systems is that the H only alters the mass air sensor reading and thins the A/F ratio which is typically pig rich in most modern vehicles.

    H as a fuel in any form is always an energy loss. It is an energy carrier, not an energy source.

    Popular Science did some testing with it and said nih! Now they heat their office with the sheer amount of hate mail by the believers that wear tin foil hats.

  • avatar

    nudave
    Frank – I think the answer you’re groping for is “no”.

    Anecdotes are not evidence.

    That’s why I asked if anyone had any experience with it or any other “gas saving” gadgets.

  • avatar
    Cole Trickle

    Carpool.

  • avatar
    kericf

    There is the possibility that it could give you a very minor increase, but the expense of doing it, posibly voiding your warranty or causing damage to your engine by screwing something up, is not worth the 1/3 of a mpg you might get.

    Unicorn farts are where it’s at.

  • avatar
    jaje

    Right before I get into my car I get down on my knees and pray to Baby Jesus for better mileage – and because of his divine intervention I get 10% better mileage.

    sigh…

  • avatar
    trlstanc

    I’ve heard about hydrogen injection before, but that was bottled liquid hydrogen being injected, and apparently it worked pretty well.

    I don’t think that the small amount of H2 you could generate with these little systems would be enough to make a difference – basically what Popular Science found.

  • avatar
    numa

    In a properly tuned up vehicle, no. Is nothing more than BS. Now, as far as the H ‘leaning’ out the MAS, possible except for a couple of minor problems… mainly, H, at atmospheric pressures would doesn’t exactly occupy a lot of space, sure if you could displace some of the ridiculously heavy air, you could do something, but come on, that would take an immense amount of Hydrogen, which you are not going to get with small electrodes pulling 1-10 amps off the alternator.

    Now, onto things that improve fuel economy, well, turn to the wonderful world of hot-rodding for your solutions. IE, focus on the ‘quality’ of your air fuel mixture, drive conservative, run a lower temperature thermostat, MAKE THE FRIGGIN CAR LIGHTER. Lose weight. change to a direct injection, or at least a vortec type system. LOOK at your engine, hook it up to a computer, have you lost some compression on a cylinder? do you have a fuel injector sputtering due to clog/wear? the list goes on and on. Typically, once an engine is tuned up and running right, look at your parasitic losses, go for a pulley set (just don’t try to idle for long) switch to a manual tranney…. etc.

  • avatar
    fisher72

    Frank, I have a friend who put one of these setups on several box trucks for his business. He claims fuel efficiency savings. He also smokes alot of that green leafy stuff….

  • avatar
    nudave

    nudave
    Frank – I think the answer you’re groping for is “no”.

    Anecdotes are not evidence.

    That’s why I asked if anyone had any experience with it or any other “gas saving” gadgets.

    Well then, since you asked…

    I do have experience which may be helpful. A recent Prius rental helped me confirm that these tips really work.

    #1 – Mileage increases dramatically if you remove your foot from the accelerator, so do not use the accelerator.

    #2 – Mileage drops to zero when stopped with the engine idling, so do not use the brakes.

    #3 – Fuel use drops to zero when stopped with the engine turned off, so do not turn on the engine.

    If none of these tips are practical, I also have a “gadget” in my garage that doubles my mileage. It has two wheels and I bought it at my local Kawasaki dealer.

  • avatar
    TexasAg03

    However, pure nitrogen filled tires for autos is BS.

    It’s BS in terms of the nitrogen itself providing an immediate mileage benefit. What it is supposed to do is maintain the tire pressure longer (nitrogen molecules are larger than oxygen, so nitrogen will seep out slower than oxygen, so they say). I don’t know of any studies to support this theory in passenger car tires, but I wouldn’t call it complete BS. I would say it’s just not worth the trouble…

    I can also increase my mileage greatly by placing an egg between my foot and the accelerator, and not breaking the egg.

    I have never had a car with an accelerator pedal that would allow this to happen. They have all been too stiff and an egg would crack easily.

  • avatar
    Tommy Jefferson

    Hydrogen injection causes O2 sensors to report incorrect data.

    This tricks the car’s engine computer into reporting optimistic MPG numbers.

    Worse is that it causes a lean running condition which wrecks valve seals and piston crowns.

  • avatar
    matt

    @ numa:

    mainly, H, at atmospheric pressures would doesn’t exactly occupy a lot of space, sure if you could displace some of the ridiculously heavy air, you could do something, but come on, that would take an immense amount of Hydrogen,

    I’m pretty sure that in any NA car (and even in most boosted cars, since the pressures there are still only 1.5-2 bar), the pressures are low enough to where you can treat both air and hydrogen as an ideal gas, thus they both displace the same volume. They would have a different mass though, so it may in fact mess with a MAF. But if these kits inject the H2 directly into the combustion chambers, then thats a different matter.

  • avatar
    barberoux

    Cody: I wasn’t implying that water injection worked the same as hydrogen injection. I was just adding that injecting water improved performance though in a different manner.

    TexasAg03: The egg comment was a joke. Lighten up.

  • avatar
    Pahaska

    Piston engined airplanes have used water injection to increase performance but then you have to carry around the weight of the water so you decrease the available payload you can carry. It’s always a trade off.

    The only thing that water does in an aircraft engine is to allow a leaner fuel mixture by controlling combustion. Without a leaner mixture, injecting water would reduce engine performance; water doesn’t burn and would displace oxygen and fuel that do burn. The amount of water injected is fairly small, so the actual weight of water carried is trivial in large aircraft and not even considered in weight and balance calculations.

    I have spent many hours at the throttles of R2800 and R4360 engines in the C-123 and C-119.

  • avatar
    lightford

    The hydrogen injection idea has been a big topic of discussion at my place of work as of late. If interested, the following site provides some good information as to why it does not work…

    http://www.aardvark.co.nz/hho.shtml

  • avatar
    guyincognito

    One of the systems I saw had a coil submerged in a bottle (2 liter soda bottle) of water. That would not make hydrogen but rather simply heat the water. Hydrogen can be made from water using electricity but I don’t think many of these systems are doing that. I think you’d be better off just injecting the water and taking advantage of the increased compression it would allow you to safely run.

  • avatar
    Busbodger

    I spent a day reading everything I could find on this on the web. Dad knows a fellow that is doing this with his Civic and the guy claims a real improvement. Spent alot of time on it too. Wants to share the info with the world (open-source it) but apparently won’t answer questions about it.

    From what I saw on the web from the sayers and nay-sayers is that you really will produce hydrogen.

    You can do this by applying battery current to a grid of stainless steel plates submerged in a water solution. Eventually the plates erode away (disolve) so you have to replace them. The cheapest version I saw used stainless steel wall switch covers (as in the light switches in a house) stacked on screws separated by fiber washers.

    Here is where the going got muddy. The folks who built and installed these systems reported all sorts of expectations but disappeared from the forums shortly after they started to use the hydrogen generators. No, not a conspiracy theory – I think they just didn’t want to report their disappointment after all the hype.

    The “educated” opinion was that the stainless steel plates were essentially a short circuit causing up to 30 AMPS of load on the vehicle’s electrical system which would likely put so much load on the alternator that it would cancel out any gains. I also saw a few reports of alternators that were failing after driving one of these systems for some time.

    There was also an opinion that there just wasn’t enough hydrogen being produced to make much difference. Consider that a normal car might be consuming 250 to 300 CFM and the bubbler is creating something in the single digits or maybe the teens CFM… Awkward written statement but you see what I mean I hope. It’s a spoonful of hydrogen in a tanker truck load of air.

    Basically there are alot of people hyping it and then unavailable for comments after install. There are also alot of people hyping the kits to sell you one for $125. Then there are those people who will tell you all about their black magic projects and how they can power their house from a flashlight battery but nobody can reproduce it. Then there are a few people who say it made a small difference and seem to be reasonable people. The small difference might have been achieved by driving more carefully and slowly.

    Whatever the case I came away with the feeling that a person could save alot MORE gas by staying home more, choosing the more efficient of the two or three cars they already own more when they did go somewhere, by getting their maintenance up to date, and driving with an egg under their foot.

    None of the hydrogen generators I saw were going to turn a Big-block muscle car into a car getting mileage that rivaled a Corolla. I wish it worked b/c I have a 20 mpg VW van I’d like to drive more but I can’t justify making it a daily driver with that kind of mileage even if my commute is less than 20 miles round trip daily. 35 mpg would have been nice.

    FWIW synthetic oil gained us 1-2 mpg in both of our cars and the K&N filter in my CR-V was worth about .31 HP more. Just kidding – no real change. The intake noise makes it sound a little faster but it isn’t. Been using a K&N filter for 162K miles now. Doesn’t seem to hurt anything but it doesn’t seem to have helped anything either. I have ultimately saved a little on air filters I suppose. Maybe not – I am using the K&N filter oil and cleaner so the difference in cost between paper and the K&N filters is more like nil.

    Want to save gas? Go slower. Launch slower. Drive less. Get your tire pressures right and keep them that way. Use synthetic oil. The added cost may not save you money but your engine will likely last longer. Use synthetic tranny oils. Drive a smaller vehicle. Buy a five speed manual tranny car. Ditch the SUV… Leave the kids at home more. Eat out less (smaller waistline, cheaper to make dinner at home).

  • avatar
    Busbodger

    Maybe some sort of computerized system with very fine control and better materials might make enough hydrogen to run something… I still have hope that somebody will get it right but I’m not holding my breath.

    Read up on the hypermilers. They exceed the HHO kits without any any engine black magic. Not saying what some of them do is safe…

  • avatar
    N85523

    Pahaska,

    I’d hate to be tasked with simply cleaning or replacing the spark plugs in an R4360. 112 plugs per airplane is an awful lot. We’ve come a long way.

  • avatar

    No.

  • avatar
    austinseven

    This is the most concise explanation available.

    http://www.baileycar.com/hydrogen_ripoff.html

  • avatar
    DetroitIronUAW

    I’ve presonally had these on my cars with good results. All you need isa pikle jar with a low electricity through out. you route the hydrogen into your intake with a hose and nipple. It worked. I could tell I got better gas mileage.

  • avatar

    These are all ripoffs. If this had a shred of reality in it someone by now would have published their fascinating new discovery of an exception to the laws of thermodynamics to break water molecules apart for less energy than they possess. Instead, it’s hush hush and buy my book. If it’s too good to believe, it’s probably not.

    What has worked for me? Harder tires, a good dial gauge to check my tire pressure, and replacing my oil, oil filter, and air filter on the recommended interval

  • avatar
    afuller

    My brother just installed one of these on his truck. No fancy expensive kit, he made everything himself. He said something about some stainless steel plates in a mason jar hooked to 12v with some water and baking soda, plumb that into a vacuum line and he’s all set. The jury is still out on whether he’s going to see any benefit since he only completed the install over the weekend.

    Regardless of whether he sees any benefit at least he’s actively experimenting instead of armchair quarterbacking.

  • avatar
    Mike66Chryslers

    In these systems, the hydrogen is being generated by electrolysis of water, and the electricity is coming from the car’s electrical system. Thus, extra fuel is being burned to spin the alternator under load to supply this energy.

    Even if water electrolysis was a 100% efficient process, the energy you’d get back from combustion of the hydrogen would be equal to the energy used to generate the hydrogen in the first place.

  • avatar
    rtz

    You need to go all the way:

    http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/

  • avatar
    monkeyboy

    Once again, pure opinion and anecdotal evidence backed by “The Internet.”

    Yes, H2 does improve combustion efficiency by adding an different, lighter hydrocarbon. There is a tipping point.

    No, it’s not “injected.” It’s more of a passive introduction. No pressurized system.

    Water does cool the intake and therefore creates a more dense air charge resulting in more BMEP.

    Aftermarket “Cold Air Kits” are usually worse than production units, but, offer a great placebo effect that money can’t buy for the consumer.

    N2 in the tires. What a crock. The fallacy that it leaks at a much slower rate than regular air,is bogus. Air , after all is 86% nitrogen, so how much slower is it really going to be? At 4x more cost or more.

    Anymore Myth Busting to be done?

  • avatar
    Pahaska

    I’d hate to be tasked with simply cleaning or replacing the spark plugs in an R4360. 112 plugs per airplane is an awful lot. We’ve come a long way.

    Only 56 spark plugs; 2 per cylinder. Still a lot.

    Biggest aircraft engine ever built. 28 cylinders in 4 banks. To reduce the length of the engine, each bank was rotated so that the cylinders nested together to help cooling. We called it the “Corn cob” because it looked like one.

    3500 HP as we flew it.

  • avatar
    Roger Hislop

    Interestingly I used this very scam, specifically the water4gas varietal, as the starting point of an article on my company blog about “scamwashing” or “scamturfing” — scamming by astroturfing (creating fake “grass roots” support).

    http://www.sentientbeing.co.za/post/241/scamming-reality

    Leaving aside the technical/physics of this nonsense, anyone that spends as much time astroturfing as these cloudes has to be scamming. A legitimate product does not require this level of forum spam/fake domains/fake reviews/fake anti-scam sites.

    ~R

  • avatar
    N85523

    Pahaska,

    56 plugs per engine, but 112 plugs per C-119.

    There was a B-25 at our local airport this weekend and we were trying to guess the cash required for a new set of plugs…

  • avatar
    numa

    Matt: good point. I read a bit about MAF at wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_flow_sensor), sorta looks like it Might affect some MAF but not others.

  • avatar
    JTParts

    I looked into these on the net too, I really wish that something would work so I can afford to drive the Suburban a little more. There are a bunch of videos on youtube showing people “running” on these systems. Videos of jars bubbling away but what are they bubbling with? Is each one of those bubbles pure hydrogen? and what power source is really being used? anyone could easily fake one of these.

    The one thing I read that has not been mentioned here is that you need to lean out your mixture to achieve the mpg increase. Most of the kits recommended doing a mod to the oxygen sensor. This worries me as Mr Jefferson related above it could cause engine damage. I know that the fuel is used to cool the valves etc. So I would be worried about burning valves from a lean condition. I suppose you could supplement the cooling effect with water injection but at eight pounds a gallon where does that become less efficient?

    Also does anyone know how many HP it takes to run an alternator under a nominal load vs. full load? that would seem to be a big concern in this deal.

    I have K&N filters on all my cars and I installed an aftermarket exhaust on my Suburban between the two I should have seen close to 5 mpg increase according to their claims. I did not notice any increase in MPG but it sure sounds nice…

  • avatar
    Cavendel

    monkeyboy :
    N2 in the tires. What a crock. The fallacy that it leaks at a much slower rate than regular air,is bogus. Air , after all is 86% nitrogen, so how much slower is it really going to be? At 4x more cost or more.

    Yeah, this is a good one.

    I would also assume that if the oxygen is leaking out at some incredible rate, then the air in the tire would, over time and many refils, become a much purer concentration of nitrogen than normal air contains (~80% I think unless global warming affects that too).

    As far as those kits are concerned, I’m amazed that they don’t bottle up the oxygen as well. Wouldn’t running pure oxygen and pure hydrogen into the engine give you the boost of the space shuttle? ha ha ha.

  • avatar
    Power6

    Everyone should keep in mind these systems do *not* generate pure hydrogen, they generate hydrogen mixed with oxygen 2:1(by moles) which is known as “Brown’s Gas”

    Once again, pure opinion and anecdotal evidence backed by “The Internet.”

    Yes, H2 does improve combustion efficiency by adding an different, lighter hydrocarbon. There is a tipping point.

    No, it’s not “injected.” It’s more of a passive introduction. No pressurized system.

    Can you substantiate that claim? Is there an SAE paper on this or something? Just stating something as if it is fact in an authoritative manner is not going to make it true. The burden of proof is certainly on the idea that challenges basic Physics. So lets have it!

    IMO the claim that Hydrogen “improves combustion” is merely the secondary claim that the HHO hucksters hide behind once it is painfully obvious that the Hydrogen in the Brown’s Gas generated by the HHO systems is not enough to offset any amount of gasoline power, much less the power it required to do the electrolysis in the first place! That somehow this small amount of Hydrogen and Oxygen magically improves gasoline combustion efficiency is shaky at best.

  • avatar
    Lumbergh21

    I don’t have time to read all of the previous comments, etc. but I’m assuming that this is one of the systems that uses “excess” electricity from the alternator to generate hydrogen and then inject the hydrogen into the intake. It is pure unadulterated snake oil and violates the laws of physics. Not suggestions or theories, the laws of physics Just like magnets on the fuel line, the tornado on the air intake, etc. The engine has to work minimally harder to drive the generator to produce the electricity that produces a small amoutn of hydrogen from the water solution. The hydrogen is then burnt in the combustion chamber theoretically reducing the need for gasoline. However, at each one of these steps, there is an energy loss. The amount of extra mechanical energy necessary to power the generator is greater than the amount of electrical energy produced by the generator. Some energy is then lost to heat during the transmission of the electricity to the reaction chamber and in the reaction chamber itself. Finally, most of the energy generated by the burning of the hydrogen is then lost as heat to the atmosphere. Conservation of energy says that even with 100% efficiency, which is impossible in this universe, no energy will be created, meaning that teh energy input will never be less than the energy output in a closed system.

  • avatar
    shaker

    Frank (and TTAC):
    Thanks for posting my question; I was 99.5% sure that it was psuedoscience (i.e., bullshit), but was curious to see if anyone out there had more evidence or actual (God forbid) experience.
    I’m intrigued by the theory that the lighter gas can “fool” a vehicle’s MAF/O2 sensor and thus the MPG meter; but it seems that worse numbers would result.
    As has been said, poeple are promoting these harebrained solutions on forums, then vanishing into “thin air”, only to magically reappear (under another psudeonym) touting this “breakthrough”.
    So I suppose that anecdotes sell these things (initially), but few who purchase these off-the-shelf “snake oil” kits (only to find that they’ve been “had”) are willing to make the results public.

  • avatar
    monkeyboy

    Does having an SAE paper on the subject make it truer?
    Does having a FDA approval on Medicine make it safer?

    It IS the laws of physics and ICE development after, oh say 100 years or so, that back the claim.

    Grad paper after Grad paper make the claim that an ICE can use hydrogen as a substitute fuel for nearly a net 0 exhaust emissions. Anyone refuting this industry wide information just likes to argue.

    SAE does have many papers from Toyo Kogyo on the suitability of Hydrogen in Wankel (rotary) engines since the ’70′s. It works. Look it up.

    So from this , you can use it for substituting petroleum as a fuel. That would mean less petroleum per mile and that would equate to an increase of mileage per gallon.

    As you can use propane injection in any ICE to boost the “MPG” there also.

    Just like substituting veggie oil instead of diesel fuel increases the mileage of “diesel fuel per mile.”

  • avatar
    1966_Caddy_Hearse

    From my research, yes hydrogen works as a supplemental mileage booster. But you have to compensate for it in the car’s injection sensor system, or you will get worse mileage, not better because the sensors take the extra oxygen and H as evidence of a lean condition, and richen things up. So you have to use a MAP adjuster, or an O2 adjuster in the stream somewhere, and then you can tune the engine for the current situation.

    Regular electrolysis of water in these applications will take anywhere from 5 to 30 amps and generate a -lot- of heat. It requires a catalyst or electrolyte of some type (salt, potassium hydroxide, sodium hydroxide or baking soda, etc), and that is why it is like a short, but if it is drawing more than 20 amps, somebody mixed up too much into the water. Stainless 316 electrodes will last the longest, but other stainless electrodes will work. You need distilled water to prevent mass gunk build up, and you’ll still get some if using baking soda.

    The best way is to use PWM (Pulse Width Modulated) voltage and then you need no catalyst at all, and you can use tap water. In this situation you get the same or more hydrogen at only about an amp or less and practically no heat. You have to use a tuned set of electrodes, but it works and there’s no doubt about that. (it’s supposed to be impossible…but it works…so..) Stanley Meyer was onto something indeed.

    You can get the airflow and other sensor modules at places like http://www.madcosm.com/

    One thing seems true…if you buy one of these cheapie systems using the bell jars (you’d need 2 for any benefit I think)…if you do not also tend to the O2 sensor or MAP sensor situation, it’s not worth your time. From what I have read a properly tuned H system in this genre can enhance your mileage anywhere from 7 to 25 percent. I’m still building mine, so I can’t say what it will do for sure, if anything, and I have to get the O2 computer still. Worth the $200 or so it will take to run the experiment.

  • avatar
    Power6

    Does having an SAE paper on the subject make it truer?
    Does having a FDA approval on Medicine make it safer?

    It doesn’t “make” anything to have FDA approval or SAE peer review, it is just a reputable established source of information which is useful in an age where anyone can claim anything on a message board with no evidence or facts to back it up.

    It IS the laws of physics and ICE development after, oh say 100 years or so, that back the claim.

    OK so there is no easy proof of what you say is so obvious. Can you at least explain how adding a tiny amount of Hydrogen makes the gasoline combustion process “more efficient?”

    Grad paper after Grad paper make the claim that an ICE can use hydrogen as a substitute fuel for nearly a net 0 exhaust emissions.

    First of all the argument is about adding a small amount of hydrogen and oxygen to the gasoline combustion process. We are not talking about running a motor on hydrogen. That is creatinly a viable option, but has nothing to do with how an add-on HHO system works.

    Again if it’s so obvious are there any websites explaining this or are any of these Grad papers available anywhere that you know?

    Anyone refuting this industry wide information just likes to argue.

    You claim to know all this stuff, so how about you talk some physics and everyone can learn instead of formulating opponent destroying tactical arguments? Better yet, If you know basic physics why are we even arguing over a system that clearly takes more power to “make” the hydrogen than it could ever hope to get back??

    @1966_Caddy_Hearse: So you have to use a MAP adjuster, or an O2 adjuster

    Well here’s something that works! Trick the motor to run leaner, and your MPG will improve if only a little bit. No need to install the HHO system it’s superfluous.

    I don’t know if you just got here ‘Caddy_Hearse but you sure sound like one of those “astroturfers”…

  • avatar
    Areitu

    A car will certainly run on hydrogen alone. However, generating hydrogen off the alternator doesn’t produce enough hydrogen to create a net increase in efficiency. I tend to lump proponents of HHO, who do nothing more but hype and make unbacked statements, with Scientologists and that guy who can talk to dead people.

    With regards to the tornado, I found one in a ’94 Miata off a friend. I didn’t discover it for a few months, until I did a timing belt change. Taking it out made no difference in average MPG, which I measured across multiple tanks using miles/gallon.

    I think some of the “improvement” in MPG comes from people eyeballing the gas gauge, or not using average MPG figures and instead measuring only once or twice before and after.

    As for hydrogen…

    I ran into someone who swore by HHO (though he didn’t have one in any of his cars) because he’d seen the system (he does not have it himself) in his customer’s cars. Because they didn’t try to sell kits and cheap or free instructions are on the internet, he considered the product legitimate. When presented with arguments using formulas from a physics book, the response was “you can’t always trust books.” I offered to two weekends off and put up gas money to test it, before and after installation by driving around a fixed loop. No response.

    In other news, it looks like ABG has a few words about mythbuster’s hydrogen test. http://tinyurl.com/4an4xv
    (please don’t ban me!)

  • avatar
    1966_Caddy_Hearse

    @Power6

    Well here’s something that works! Trick the motor to run leaner, and your MPG will improve if only a little bit. No need to install the HHO system it’s superfluous.

    That’s a nice approach, but not really what I was saying at all. Are you astroturfing a more significant way to reduce fuel use via an EFIE alone? :) Just add a pulsed battery voltage with a potentiometer to regulate, there you go. Why am I doing your work for you? :)

    I don’t know if you just got here ‘Caddy_Hearse but you sure sound like one of those “astroturfers”…

    Yes I just got here, and perhaps the mention of the COSM would make it look otherwise, but I am not some ‘astroturfer’ or whatever that is. (I had to go look it up on Wiki). I am a software programmer and artist. That means my mind is more open than others, but not so open just any vegetable oil from the internet can be poured in, without first throwing it into a centrifuge.

    I was just wanting to give out something more substantial than “it doesn’t work” or “It does”. As to working or not, it depends on the volumes you are putting out, and if it’s less than 1.5 liter per minute, it’s not going to help much at all, true, but if you work to verify you get that much, then by using more cells, now you are replacing enough of the gas to make a dent, just for a few amps, not some giant load like that Baileycar link says. The Meyer PWM approach is the ticket it would seem. Note: he’s dead, so I can’t really be an agent for change for his systems.

    “Astroturfing”, I really need to get out more. Never have heard that one. :) Were I so important.

  • avatar

    here’s how I typically gain 3-5 mpg while increasing handling, braking, AND acceleration

    Step 1 – lightweight wheels: reduce unsprung mass for better acceleration, handling, braking, and fuel economy

    Step 2 – lighter exhaust components free up power and reduce weight

    Step 3 – lower the car to improve aerodynamics

    Step 4 – rear lip spoiler and front chin spoiler improve the coefficient of drag – make sure its the right kind that smooths the airflow, rather than increases downforce (which will reduce your fuel economy)

    Step 5 – reflash the ECU, or tune the ECU yourself, particularly at part throttle cruise you can get some serious MPG back by leaning it out a bit (just keep an eye on exhaust gas temps and avoid going too lean) – you’ll also get more power if you tune properly throughout the powerband, especially if you play with ignition

  • avatar
    Landcrusher

    I haven’t done any research, nor do I have any particular expertise in this area; however, I would strongly recommend anyone trying the egg trick use a hardboiled egg.

    Just say’n.

  • avatar
    Lumbergh21

    Caddy Hearse 1966 and Monkey Boy:

    I’ve got one of those closed minds, the kind that hangs onto facts. I was brain washed by two years of physics courses while getting my degree in Chemical Engineering. Not to mention more sophisticated examinations of chemical reactions, reactor design, physical chemistry, and all the hands on lab work that demonstrated both the basic conservation of mass and energy laws as well as more esoteric resulting theories. It takes more energy to produce the hydrogen than could ever be made burning it. This is a basic law of physics. I hope none of the truly open minds reading this forum follow your advice and waste their money while potentially damaging their car. At least the magnets on the fuel line aren’t going to do any damage, this hair brained scheme could.

  • avatar
    thinker

    ok Lumbergh21 if you realy did any classes at all I guess school never made you think,you know if everyone thought like some of you on here the world would still be flat and we would not have electric and we would all live in caves come on first brown gas is what humm 2 parts hydrogen and 1 part O2 humm. O2 would do what to help the gas burn 2) why did we not build a gas bomb humm maybe cause Hydrogen has 3 time the energy as gas so less hydrogen would infact make more energy than gas if you can’t inprove your MPG with one of the its is because first it was not though out nor did they do all that would be needed to fool the computer just like you loose MPG useing E85 it the computer not what you put in it.

  • avatar
    Landcrusher

    thinker,

    Perhaps you could take a couple breaths, and tell us what you mean in a way we can understand you?

  • avatar
    thinker

    ok in a simple term for the ones that don’t believe here it is to just say you took sume class and you teacher or a book said it could not be done is realy dumb untell you really put your mind to some thing and give it your be try you should not say it wont work or it can’t be done. It is better to have try and failed than not to have tryed and say it don’t work

  • avatar
    Landcrusher

    Sorry thinker, I still can’t understand you. Perhaps if you would post in your native language, someone could translate?


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