Aye, dying some of us may be but what can you do when you’ve got a wife, 2.5 kids and a dog to haul? I drove a 911 for a bit but as much as I loved that car, I’d shoot myself if I had to strap kids into the back seat twice a day.

I guess it depends on how you derive your identity and self-esteem. If you get it from what you drive, then it’s not unimaginable that, for some, the minivan would have an adverse effect.

However, some of us don’t work what way. My minivan is a tool that affords transportation to people and cargo. It’s been filled with kids, bikes, camping gear, wedding clothes, vacation luggage, tools, maps, books, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts and all kinds of other stuff and goes to state parks, oceans, mountains, lakes, other countries (well, OK, just Canada), museums, Capitols, factories, big cities, small towns and a whole lot of other places. And it offered good value in transportation, good fuel economy, effective power, reasonable comfort and great capacity in seats or cubic feet, whichever was needed.

None of that has me dying on the inside.

Having 3 kids under 5 means I have a lot of experience with installing and maintaining the child seats. One thing I do like is the easy access to the child seat latches in the middle row. All you have to do is flip up a velcro cover, and you can easily get to the latches. It sure beats hunting for them like I had to do in my Dodge.

The interior is pretty durable, and so far everything we have spilled on it has washed out.

We only have the one power door, and to this date, it has not given us any trouble.

The milage is pretty good. We still get consistant 25 to 27 mpg while driving at around 70.

While I have nothing against minivans, there are simply none on the road that offer the handling or luxury of the BMW X5.

Regarding the subject of handling in snow, I must admit that many drivers of SUV’s think that they are invincible. But to compare an SUV without snow tires to a car with snow tires is silly. Both vehicles should have snow tires in snow conditions, without excuse.

Pros,
It’s a heck of a lot bigger on the inside than it looks. Hell of a packaging job by Mazda.

It’s certainly top of the “fun to drive” list of minivans. Not true Zoom-Zoom, but it’s not a dodge caravan either.

Zippy motor and a fuel sipper.

Cons,
The seat fabrics must be made of some type of rodent fur. Aftermarket leather is a requirement here.

No power doors, no power seats, no power liftgate. Not a deal breaker, but these are great features when loading up the kiddos.

No *&(&@(*E$&@*&$(#@ armrest on each seat. It’s weird and probably related to a side impact safety score, but most seats only have 1 arm rest. WTF?
I’d be in pain on a long trip in just about any seat.

VERY little room for luggage if you use all 3 rows of seats. I’m not sure we could hit the grocery store with all 3 rows in use.

So, I’d say the 5 is more like a pre-GM SABB than a BMW given all those quirks.

I had the misfortune of driving a Hummer H3 for a few days this last winter. As long as you were on roads that had been plowed daily, it was nearly as good as elderly Saab 900s with decent snow tires.

Offroad, it was a helpless, pathetic joke. On anything resembling slightly-difficult off-road terrain, it was so nerve-wracking that I immediately went home got the Rubie and attacked the same snowy hill. To allay my panic that I had suddenly lost my driving skills. Nope, the Hummer really was astonishingly awful.

Offroad capable?

Where?

As someone who sometimes has dated minivan drivers, I see them as secure enough not to need to flaunt anything. I’d much rather date a woman who drives a minivan than an SUV. I’d rather date a woman who drives a minivan than one who drives a BMW strictly for status. (Of course, if she drives it for the dynamics, that’s another matter entirely.)

That Dan Neill quote probably captures is well. That makes sense at least at a sub-conscious level. In Keith Bradsher’s book “High and Mighty” he details the psychological profile that the auto manufacturers came up with themselves for their typical SUV buyer. One of the characteristics they documented was that this archetype buyer had kids – but liked to project the image that they didn’t. The book then went on to suggest that the almost universal popularity of tinted windows in the rear sections of the SUVs was influenced by the fact that the driver didn’t want the outside world to be able to see their kids in the back and label them as a soccer mom/dad? Now I am not sure if I entirely swallow that explanation of the popularity of tinted windows, as it may just as well be due to their positive practical benefits – but it is an interesting thought.

The “High and Mighty” book is a good read. It certainly is not a balanced examination of the debate on SUVs (the guy just flat-out hates them, and sets out to build an argument as to why they are a bad thing) but it is well written and very well researched.

“Apparently, it all goes back to the savanna. According to evolutionary psychology, females’ value as potential mates was signaled by their youth (fertility) and sexual availability. A minivan, however, sends out the opposite signal, that the driver is older (old enough to already have offspring) and spoken for — off the reproductive market, so to speak. In a culture where women spend billions to create the illusion of youth, it’s no wonder minivans have been fighting a market headwind.”

Which affords me to take a good look at the SUVs upside down by the side of the road.
The SUV people are too lazy to put chains on and think they don’t need them.
Have you ever seen a minivan or a Corolla for that matter upside down in the snow? I haven’t. It’s always SUVs or pickup trucks.
Have you ever seen an SUV with chains on? Only the police…

Mini Van Drivers in the real world.

“Soccer Mom SUVS” are far more contemptible in my mind than are soccer moms. And you are right, I suspect that 99 percent of the time SUVs are sold only on their “image.”

Someday, I want to meet someone that has really taken a Porsche Cayenne or a Cadillac Slade or a Lincoln Navigator off-road. I read that statistically Grand Cherokee owners are more likely by an order of magnitude than other SUV drivers to take their vehicles off-road, and yet only 20 percent of GC drivers do.

Heck, I was one of those who couldn’t see myself driving one. Until I rented one out to carry customers around and found it very, very practical. It’s a heck of a lot more driveable than the traditional big van, and much easier to enter/exit from. And once I had a child, then my thinking really changed, with all the gear that you need for a kid.

The step over is a lot lower (important for my petite wife), it has better space utilization and driving dynamics than a typical family hauling SUV, and probably better fuel economy to boot.

As for the players – I’ve seen partisans of either the Odyssey vs Sienna. They’re both pretty nice vehicles and you won’t go wrong with either. The Sienna has all these option packages that make buying one a bit more complicated or you have more choice, while the Odyssey has pretty set trim lines.

I think you have to decide what you are aiming for. If you are a site for pure uncompromising piston-heads that can never accept anything less that 100% dedication to the cause of driving excitement and enjoyment – then why bother reviewing a minivan? It obviously isn’t designed to provide that kind of experience? If on the other hand you want to embrace all aspects of the motoring cosmos, covering the complete range of vehicles available to the consumer – then for Pete’s sake review the minivan in the context of what a minivan is designed to deliver. I am interested in whether or not it’s a good minivan. Is it now better than the competing Odyssey? How does it compare to the revamped Chrysler vans?

What use is there is implying that it will never keep up with a Lotus Elise on a track day, or it will get left for dead at the traffic lights by a Corvette?

You describe the tranquility inside the cabin as “mind numbing”. What would you prefer, a little more wind noise or road noise from the tires, some rumbling and creaking from the suspension maybe, a really thrashy noisy engine maybe? I would guess that most owners would see low interior noise levels and serene ride quality as a major plus point rather than a demerit?

In general you just seem to lend credence to the (rather dumb IMHO) bandwagon prejudice that the more shallow and insecure members of the public have against the minivan in general. People who would never consider a minivan even though it may be the perfect vehicle for their vehicle needs profile.

If you have a family with two or more kids, often need to do long road trips, and have no need for heavy towing capacity or off-roading capability ( no, I mean REAL need – not the fantasy “well one day I might WANT to go off-road one day or haul a 10 ton trailer across the Rockies” B-S ) then the minivan probably represents the optimum combination of practicality, flexibility, reasonable running costs and initial affordability.

Sadly the reasons that people give for not wanting to buy a minivan are often very telling. I’d say that you hear the phrase “I wouldn’t be SEEN dead in a minivan” more often than you’ll hear “They are no fun to drive” or “they don’t really do what I need them to do”.
The truth is that people are more worried about what other will think of them than they are about getting a vehicle that really works for them.

Why are so many women with children (many of whom play soccer) so keen to avoid the stigma of being a “mom”? Are they ashamed of the fact that they have kids? Are they that ashamed of who they really are? I don’t want to digress too far into the realms of pop-psychology here, but I can’t escape the feeling that this is pretty sad indictment on society. OK, I am a realist. I understand how cars are marketed to the “want” more than the “need” – but it is still a sad fact that it works that way.

So please, try and avoid the thinly-veiled sneering. Minivans are fine vehicles for what they were intended to do. And please also avoid the inference that no self-respecting piston-head would drive a minivan. It is possible to a life-long enthusiast for all things mechanical and also to take the sensible decision that one of your family vehicles should be a minivan.

A Miata with good snow tires will outperform my Rubicon or CJ5 any day of the week on snowy roads. Why? Both of the Jeeps feature genuine off-road mud terrain tires, which are conversely abominable in snow. They are also too short and tall and will swap ends easily. On icy roads, the Jeeps are a life-threatening menace. Most SUVs come equipped with All Season light truck tires, which are only one marginal step better than mud terrains in snow. Additionally, since most SUVs have far less clearance than the Jeeps and are a lot longer (making them far less capable off road), they do not swap ends as easily as the Jeeps on snow or ice packed paved roads.

You would be really surprised how easily standard SUV’s with open differentials bog down on level “country roads” with a foot of new snow. Most of them have at best 8 or 9 inches of clearance under the differentials, which eventually becomes the deciding factor in maintaining forward momentum.

Conversely, any car sepcially including two-wheel drive pickups(clearance), that are equipped with good snow tires are mindblowing in their capacity to maintain critical foward momentum. Snow tires convert a mild mannered minivan or FWD anything into a superstar. Coupled with AWD, they are clearly superior over the usual SUVS at a reasonable snow level. Above a “reasonable” level, things get dicey for anything.

I have personally witnessed many many times stardard SUV’s stuck in the middle of an unplowed road and get unstuck behind a minivan with snow tires, or even a school bus equipped with tire chains (don’t ask me to elaborate on that last still-humiliating example)

With two or three feet of new snow or more on top of a winter’s accumulation on unplowed roads, you need to air down to 10 psi, have superb driving skills, ridiculous levels of “articulation,” and have lockers at both ends. (It’s just astonishing how bad that Rubicon gets when you turn off the lockers. It makes you appreciate the dire plight of normal SUVs) Ya stay on the gas enough to keep going but not start spinning, but not so little as to sink in and start clawing to the bottom. Too fast or slow is a recipe for deploying the old snow shovel traction devise.

This analysis is hotly-debated every day in little hole in the wall cafes in the real snow country. But by and large, I can honestly say it is a consensus of the accumulated practical experience.

That said, I’d be happy to try out the Odyssey, except that I can’t get over that bulbous front end styling. So the cleaner look of a Sienna might still be the ticket for us, all other things being reasonably equal.

Oh and as for the issue of driving minivans FAST, I distinctly recall an article in the press quoting one well known racing driver (maybe Dan Gurney, but I could be wrong) saying that that he and other drivers have been known to modify minivans and then drive them as fast as sports cars on the road, because of their Q-ship factor with the constabulatories. Note: he said “modified”.

My business has a Toyota Tundra and I have never quite got over the cheapness of many of Toyota’s interior parts. It is a reliable truck, but like many Toyota’s it feels cheap sometimes and things break easily.

The Honda handles much better too, but the run-flats on the Odyssey Touring are like riding on rims without rubber. They will go after the first tire change.

AWD on a Sienna is OK for puttering around the city in winter. However, it is not going to haul you places in the winter in cottage country like an SUV can. Ground clearance over snow still counts for something.

Like others, I think that minivans get a bad rap. They are probably the most practical family cars on the road. I looked at the Mercedes R Class. It is a minivan trying not to be a minivan. If that thing had sliding doors on the side instead of those huge back doors it would have sold much more and I might have even bought one. Sliding doors are a big help with kids.

Lexus or Acura should make a minivan because they would sell well.

I used to call them Minibrains as people that drive them seemed to not have one. When I am floating along the highway at 75, I try to remember that I a still driving a 4000lb vehicle, not sitting on my sofa.

My mother test drove the 2007 Nissan Quest and turning radius was normal.

Toyota Sienna needs sex appeal, like any other Toyota cars out there. AWD Sienna are you kidding the consumer with $4.00 a galloon on gas who wants to drive a AWD. by the way questions to Parents out there.
are you using a Van to compete on rally events? for god sake it is only a VAN not a Rally Car.

makes me wonder. That’s why I see a lot of moms and especially Dads that drives their Van like a car or should I say LIKE A MANIAC. they want to go faster than a car. You are hauling a huge van that 250 horsepower is good on hauling Soccer team or furnitures but it doesn’t mean you can out run a BMW M3.

Wake Up Parents!!! It’s a Van not a sports car!!!

And please drive safely my dear Parents.

The responders here have courageously and honestly chosen to buck the SUV craze, which is commendable. I own both a Jeep Rubicon (which is incidently barely an adequate off-road vehicle in its current stock form) and a heavily modified CJ5 (that really shouldn’t be driven on the highway), so it really disgusts me the way automakers have perpetuated the SUV fraud. It has evolved into a clear and present danger to national security and the economy.

One writer on another thread presented the vivid truism that most SUV buyers actually use and need about the same offroad capabilities of a Dodge Neon.

And these responses have eloquently demolished yet another faux justification for SUVs: their towing and large passenger hauling capabilities. Clearly, minivans perform those duties with capabilities to spare, as well as having superior fuel economy and on-road handling and ride too boot. I just never thought about towing with a front drive vehicle, but clearly it can be done.

And it would seem that an AWD Sienna with good snow tires would outperform any SUV in the winter.

The Odyssey felt like I was driving my Accord until I looked in the mirror and saw all the space behind me (plus the seating position is elevated). But the Sienna’s steering is by far its worst feature; it has zero feel at all. Now that I’m getting more used to it, it doesn’t bother me as much. The turning radius is good, as another commenter said.

I jokingly refer to our Sienna as the Lexus of minivans because it has navigation, DVD player, leather, “wood” steering wheel and trim, Bluetooth, etc…basically everything my mom’s 2004 RX330 had. It’s a really comfy place to spend time when hauling the family around.

My Sister owns the non-competitor everyone keeps mentioning– The Chrysler Town & Country. It’s silent, well-built, powerful and dare I say it? Handsome. A SWB Caravan with extra suspension stiffening, 3×2 seating, full console and 2.4 turbo/6-Speed from the SRT/4 is what these guys are asking for, and Dodge should offer it.

She’s got a friend that traded out of a Caravan for the current Odyssey, and it’s been more troublesome than the both the others.

When do we see the comparison between these three?